Mursuka, its in youtube - juan admits to the race being planned. Every commentator in the world knew mclaren had to switch the drivers as kimi was still in the wdc fight. Perhaps in Finland you were told differently.
If you can't find it in youtube its also in the official FIA 2005 review.
Full Version: The king of Spa
QUOTE (mursuka80 @ May 21 2009, 19:04) 
And you once again come here to bash people who have some positive to say about Kimi 
What is your problem? Do you have some software that detects positive posts about him? Why do you hate him?
What is your problem? Do you have some software that detects positive posts about him? Why do you hate him?No my over-sensitive friend, I only criticize people who say something idiotic about your precious Raikkonen.
What is your problem? Are you unable to detect the idiocy in declaring Raikkonen being the 'king of Spa' on the basis of a piece of driving done in Suzuka? Does your fanboy software blank out suchlike correlations?
And btw: What about your own bashing against BMW_F1 who had something positive to say about Montoya
Why do you hate Montoya?
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ May 21 2009, 20:07)
I know its been several years have past already and people tend to forget. Its normal.
In the podium on Saturday Montoya said he was driving for the team and that he would do what ever it takes to help Kimi and the team. After the crash with Pizzonia, he was interviewed and mentioned that the race was running perfectly "as planned" until the incident.
What more do you need?
After kimi was out of the WDC, Juan went all out racing for wins and beat kimi in Brazil which was the next race.
In the podium on Saturday Montoya said he was driving for the team and that he would do what ever it takes to help Kimi and the team. After the crash with Pizzonia, he was interviewed and mentioned that the race was running perfectly "as planned" until the incident.
What more do you need?
After kimi was out of the WDC, Juan went all out racing for wins and beat kimi in Brazil which was the next race.
"As planned" to me means Mclaren 1-2,but it doesnt matter Kimi won and JPM crashed out,so this talk is useless.
QUOTE (giacomo @ May 21 2009, 20:14)
No my over-sensitive friend, I only criticize people who say something idiotic about your precious Raikkonen.
What is your problem? Are you unable to detect the idiocy in declaring Raikkonen being the 'king of Spa' on the basis of a piece of driving done in Suzuka? Does your fanboy software blank out suchlike correlations?
And btw: What about your own bashing against BMW_F1 who had something positive to say about Montoya Why do you hate Montoya?
What is your problem? Are you unable to detect the idiocy in declaring Raikkonen being the 'king of Spa' on the basis of a piece of driving done in Suzuka? Does your fanboy software blank out suchlike correlations?
And btw: What about your own bashing against BMW_F1 who had something positive to say about Montoya
Why do you hate Montoya?I just said what was the truth.JPM crashed out. And sorry for being a dick
That opening post is a bit silly.
The whole 2005 Suzuka thing is overrated as hell, just like the 2000 Spa thing. Many drivers did much better overtaking moves in their carreers, but with lesser hype.
In fact Kimi is overrated, especially considering he is not a topdriver anymore, barely average now, and error prone. He used to be good, but most drivers are used to be good at their primes.
And if we talk about the "King of Spa" the first name comes into my mind is Michael Schumacher. He completely dominated the track between 1992 and 2004, winning 6 races + 1 where he was robbed.
In fact Kimi is overrated, especially considering he is not a topdriver anymore, barely average now, and error prone. He used to be good, but most drivers are used to be good at their primes.
And if we talk about the "King of Spa" the first name comes into my mind is Michael Schumacher. He completely dominated the track between 1992 and 2004, winning 6 races + 1 where he was robbed.
QUOTE (mursuka80 @ May 21 2009, 22:17)
I just said what was the truth.JPM crashed out. And sorry for being a dick That opening post is a bit silly.
That opening post is a bit silly.You are distorting the truth there a bit aren't you? Its like me saying Kimi crashed out in Canada last year when he was in fact taken out by Hamilton. Pizzonia was penalized for taking Montoya out.
Crashing out means losing the car by itself, crashing and retiring from the race alas JPM in Barcelona 05 or Kimi in Spa/Singapore/Monaco 08.
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ May 21 2009, 18:31)
You are distorting the truth there a bit aren't you? Its like me saying Kimi crashed out in Canada last year when he was in fact taken out by Hamilton. Pizzonia was penalized for taking Montoya out.
Crashing out means losing the car by itself, crashing and retiring from the race alas JPM in Barcelona 05 or Kimi in Spa/Singapore/Monaco 07.
Crashing out means losing the car by itself, crashing and retiring from the race alas JPM in Barcelona 05 or Kimi in Spa/Singapore/Monaco 07.
Barcelona 05? JPM finished 7th there after an extra pitstop. Wasn't an amazing race by him, but he didn't crash out.
QUOTE (mursuka80 @ May 21 2009, 22:14)
"As planned" to me means Mclaren 1-2,but it doesnt matter Kimi won and JPM crashed out,so this talk is useless.
Your argument is ridiculous. Why would Montoya say and commit to helping Kimi in the qualifying press conference if what the plan was, according to what you say, for him to beat Kimi.? You make no sense at all. Why would Mclaren give up 2 valuable WDC points when the leader of the race is also employed by the team, has no business winning the race or fighting for the WDC. ? As we saw in 2007 the WDC can easily be decided by a single point and it would have been very unwise for MClaren to throw points away like that that were so easily given.
QUOTE (GiancarloF1 @ May 21 2009, 22:33)
Barcelona 05? JPM finished 7th there after an extra pitstop. Wasn't an amazing race by him, but he didn't crash out.
sorry, I meant 06.
QUOTE (GiancarloF1 @ May 22 2009, 02:19)
And if we talk about the "King of Spa" the first name comes into my mind is Michael Schumacher. He completely dominated the track between 1992 and 2004, winning 6 races + 1 where he was robbed.
+ 1998 where he dominated the field till DC decided to play naughty.
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ May 21 2009, 16:43)
Mursuka, its in youtube - juan admits to the race being planned. Every commentator in the world knew mclaren had to switch the drivers as kimi was still in the wdc fight. Perhaps in Finland you were told differently.
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ May 21 2009, 16:43)
BTW, Montoya had Kimi covered in Spa in 05 it was team orders that decided the outcome of that race.
Hang on. How can it be JPM "had Kimi covered" if the entire world knew JPM had no chance to win, anyway? It is true JPM gained 7 secs thanks to pace car (something we discussed long time ago), but if JPM and Kimi both knew the outcome of the deal, clearly there was no race to begin with.
You cannot eat and save the cake at the same time, rob ;-)
Spunout,
actually the safety car made the race easier for Juan and more difficult for Kimi if they would have both raced for the win.
actually the safety car made the race easier for Juan and more difficult for Kimi if they would have both raced for the win.
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ May 21 2009, 19:09)
Spunout,
actually the safety car made the race easier for Juan and more difficult for Kimi if they would have both raced for the win.
actually the safety car made the race easier for Juan and more difficult for Kimi if they would have both raced for the win.
Of course. Kimi lost time. But it didn´t matter; they weren´t racing for the win. As you pointed out, JPM was destined to let Kimi go at some point. Since there was no real race, you cannot say JPM "had Kimi covered". We´ll never know which McLaren driver would have won in some fantasy scenario where both have chances for the WDC and freedom to race for the win. It seems your reasoning is "JPM was beating Kimi until McLaren team orders", but that is completely illogical. Both JPM & Kimi knew team orders were coming, anyway. When Kimi was following JPM, he made no effort whatsoever to pass. There was no need. On the other hand, it is equally possible JPM wasn´t going flat out (or Kimi wasn´t going flat out, etc).
When it comes to Kimi vs JPM, no conclusions can be made based on Spa 2005.
QUOTE (mursuka80 @ May 21 2009, 18:00)
I dont think that JPM admitted team orders,because they were banned then also.Source or link to this JPM interview would be nice.
I can confirm such interview exists. At least IMHO JPM did make it clear enough (due to WDC situation) he wasn´t allowed to race for the win.
QUOTE (giacomo @ May 21 2009, 16:02)
This thread opener is pure comedy gold.
I think somebody finally found his password in a lost old mail...
QUOTE (Schuperman @ May 21 2009, 17:59)
+ 1998 where he dominated the field till DC decided to play naughty.
I don't like to agree with you but this one is true. Maybe not the DC part because we will never know, but it was Schu's race.
QUOTE (Barramut @ May 21 2009, 20:40)
I think somebody finally found his password in a lost old mail...
You don't like my presence here? Well, that looks like tough luck for you.
QUOTE (Schuperman @ May 21 2009, 18:59)
+ 1998 where he dominated the field till DC decided to play naughty.
Good ol' DC. He never failed to bring at least one brainfade per season.
QUOTE (GiancarloF1 @ May 21 2009, 21:36)
Good ol' DC. He never failed to bring at least one brainfade per season.
Apart from 2008, when he delivered one brainfade per race weekend.
QUOTE (giacomo @ May 21 2009, 18:34)
You don't like my presence here? Well, that looks like tough luck for you.
I missed your temper.
What happened?
QUOTE (Barramut @ May 21 2009, 18:40)
I think somebody finally found his password in a lost old mail...
Come on, he might have taken vacation, switched jobs, served temporaty ban, etc. So many different possibilites.
QUOTE (klover @ May 22 2009, 17:34)
Come on, he might have taken vacation, switched jobs, served temporaty ban, etc. So many different possibilites.
There are a lot of guys missing in the board.
QUOTE (klover @ May 22 2009, 17:34)
Come on, he might have taken vacation, switched jobs, served temporaty ban, etc. So many different possibilites.
Giacomo was speachless when I wrote we were missing him.
QUOTE (Barramut @ May 22 2009, 13:52)
There are a lot of guys missing in the board.
Maybe they be at Gitmo?
Schuey wasn't robbed in '94 - his Benetton was illegal the whole year, not just at Spa.
QUOTE (Barramut @ May 22 2009, 19:52)
There are a lot of guys missing in the board.
I don't blame them. Lately F1 is more about political fights and scandals rather than motor racing.
QUOTE (klover @ May 22 2009, 22:10)
I don't blame them. Lately F1 is more about political fights and scandals rather than motor racing.
You are right.I myself only got back here yesterday,because i knew all discussion would be revolving around Teams vs FIA,so i dont bother.
QUOTE
…okay this is the telemetry trace from the Turkish grand prix 08…turns 7,8 and 9
massa(red) and raikkonen(green) have nearly identical turn 7 entries and exit,even though kimi is slightly less progressive on the throttle.into turn 8 however..massa lifts off too earlt giving kimi an immediate speed advantage..lifting off early has given massa a chance to get back at it early too..but that’s only given him a further moment,meaning he has to get back out of it again.raikkonen`s throttle usage is much more progressive and his feel for when the car will be able to accept his inputs better defined..Istanbul,s oval corner is almost an oval,meaning the inputs have to be kept at a minimal.,thereby keeping its pitch consistant and allowing better airflow thru its aero dyanamic components,therefore more grip.kimi gets a significant advantage here thru his finer honed inputs..into turn 9,kimi is later on the brakes and faster into turn..
now cuz hes arriving at the apex with greater break pressure than massa,the front of the car will not accept as high a speed for direction change,so his minimum speed is slightly lower than massa`s..but the time lost will be much less and gained thru his faster entry…the jsawtooth like trace on the throttle curve midcorner are software blips for downchanges.
These laps are from Q2
massa(red) and raikkonen(green) have nearly identical turn 7 entries and exit,even though kimi is slightly less progressive on the throttle.into turn 8 however..massa lifts off too earlt giving kimi an immediate speed advantage..lifting off early has given massa a chance to get back at it early too..but that’s only given him a further moment,meaning he has to get back out of it again.raikkonen`s throttle usage is much more progressive and his feel for when the car will be able to accept his inputs better defined..Istanbul,s oval corner is almost an oval,meaning the inputs have to be kept at a minimal.,thereby keeping its pitch consistant and allowing better airflow thru its aero dyanamic components,therefore more grip.kimi gets a significant advantage here thru his finer honed inputs..into turn 9,kimi is later on the brakes and faster into turn..
now cuz hes arriving at the apex with greater break pressure than massa,the front of the car will not accept as high a speed for direction change,so his minimum speed is slightly lower than massa`s..but the time lost will be much less and gained thru his faster entry…the jsawtooth like trace on the throttle curve midcorner are software blips for downchanges.
These laps are from Q2
GRUNGE, how do you have Ferrari telemetry??? I wish so much to have acess to that. In Turkey last year, Kubica was the fastest of the weekend on Q2 in Sector 2, which contains all the corners you compared the Ferrari guys.
Do you have Kubica's car telemetry from that session to compare???
PS: How can I enlarge that pics?
QUOTE (Kooper @ May 23 2009, 03:06)
Schuey wasn't robbed in '94 - his Benetton was illegal the whole year, not just at Spa.
And all the other teams were Angels I'm sure.
So why wasn't the WDC taken from him and the team then or wheres your other proof that you can put forward or are you just a slanderous liar?
Slanderous
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
3. Kooper's mouth dribble.
Something about the 2004 race was sticking in the back of my mind and I just watched the race to confirm it.
Kimi totally deserved his 2004 win, don't get me wrong on that score, he drove as well as he ever has in his career.
But those who followed the season know that the Ferrari's achiles heel was the warm up time of the Bridgestones and at Spa the first laps both MS and Rubens struggled and after the first safety car MS lost 4 seconds on the first restart lap because of the tyres for example.
With 10 laps to go MS was nailing Kimi and was faster on track including setting fastest laps to the point of being just 1 second behind with 6 laps to go with everybody expecting one of the finishes of the year and then with 5 laps to go the Safety Car came out
Anyway, the Ferrari's tyres went cool, Kimi got a great restart with 3 laps to go and made a 3 second gap in 2 laps - to his credit setting a fastest lap equal to MS and thats how they finished.
What a real shame about the SC at that point, both drivers and cars at their peak on the day and we were robbed to see them fight for the last 5 laps.
Ahh the "could have beens".
Kimi totally deserved his 2004 win, don't get me wrong on that score, he drove as well as he ever has in his career.
But those who followed the season know that the Ferrari's achiles heel was the warm up time of the Bridgestones and at Spa the first laps both MS and Rubens struggled and after the first safety car MS lost 4 seconds on the first restart lap because of the tyres for example.
With 10 laps to go MS was nailing Kimi and was faster on track including setting fastest laps to the point of being just 1 second behind with 6 laps to go with everybody expecting one of the finishes of the year and then with 5 laps to go the Safety Car came out
Anyway, the Ferrari's tyres went cool, Kimi got a great restart with 3 laps to go and made a 3 second gap in 2 laps - to his credit setting a fastest lap equal to MS and thats how they finished.
What a real shame about the SC at that point, both drivers and cars at their peak on the day and we were robbed to see them fight for the last 5 laps.
Ahh the "could have beens".
QUOTE (cheapracer @ May 22 2009, 22:48)
Something about the 2004 race was sticking in the back of my mind and I just watched the race to confirm it.
Kimi totally deserved his 2004 win, don't get me wrong on that score, he drove as well as he ever has in his career.
But those who followed the season know that the Ferrari's achiles heel was the warm up time of the Bridgestones and at Spa the first laps both MS and Rubens struggled and after the first safety car MS lost 4 seconds on the first restart lap because of the tyres for example.
With 10 laps to go MS was nailing Kimi and was faster on track including setting fastest laps to the point of being just 1 second behind with 6 laps to go with everybody expecting one of the finishes of the year and then with 5 laps to go the Safety Car came out
Anyway, the Ferrari's tyres went cool, Kimi got a great restart with 3 laps to go and made a 3 second gap in 2 laps - to his credit setting a fastest lap equal to MS and thats how they finished.
What a real shame about the SC at that point, both drivers and cars at their peak on the day and we were robbed to see them fight for the last 5 laps.
Ahh the "could have beens".
Kimi totally deserved his 2004 win, don't get me wrong on that score, he drove as well as he ever has in his career.
But those who followed the season know that the Ferrari's achiles heel was the warm up time of the Bridgestones and at Spa the first laps both MS and Rubens struggled and after the first safety car MS lost 4 seconds on the first restart lap because of the tyres for example.
With 10 laps to go MS was nailing Kimi and was faster on track including setting fastest laps to the point of being just 1 second behind with 6 laps to go with everybody expecting one of the finishes of the year and then with 5 laps to go the Safety Car came out
Anyway, the Ferrari's tyres went cool, Kimi got a great restart with 3 laps to go and made a 3 second gap in 2 laps - to his credit setting a fastest lap equal to MS and thats how they finished.
What a real shame about the SC at that point, both drivers and cars at their peak on the day and we were robbed to see them fight for the last 5 laps.
Ahh the "could have beens".
Still, that did not explain how Kimi overtook him. Clearly, Schumacher was not expecting that. Anyway, F2004 was a great car - much better than MP4-19 - and tyre heat-up is part of the deal, I guess.
QUOTE (Kooper @ May 22 2009, 18:06)
Maybe they be at Gitmo?
Schuey wasn't robbed in '94 - his Benetton was illegal the whole year, not just at Spa.
Schuey wasn't robbed in '94 - his Benetton was illegal the whole year, not just at Spa.
What does Gitmo means?
QUOTE (klover @ May 22 2009, 20:34)
Come on, he might have taken vacation, switched jobs, served temporaty ban, etc. So many different possibilites.
Actually I studied meditation and contemplation, and know now that aggression is a problem and no solution.
I pray for you that one day you will have the strenght to overcome your injuries and that your hatred will be cured.
* Gitmo * shorthand for Guantanamo Bay where the USA is holding terrorists
TC software on Scumacher's car (of course it wasn't used in races... yeah right)
and a junior mechanic fiddled with the fueling system all on his own, right?
Schuey (and Benetton ) was a scumbag that whole year which culminated in taking Hill out in Oz.
QUOTE (cheapracer @ May 22 2009, 16:46)
And all the other teams were Angels I'm sure.
So why wasn't the WDC taken from him and the team then or wheres your other proof that you can put forward or are you just a slanderous liar?
Slanderous
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
3. Kooper's mouth dribble.
So why wasn't the WDC taken from him and the team then or wheres your other proof that you can put forward or are you just a slanderous liar?
Slanderous
1. Law Oral communication of false statements injurious to a person's reputation.
2. A false and malicious statement or report about someone.
3. Kooper's mouth dribble.
TC software on Scumacher's car (of course it wasn't used in races... yeah right)
and a junior mechanic fiddled with the fueling system all on his own, right?
Schuey (and Benetton ) was a scumbag that whole year which culminated in taking Hill out in Oz.
QUOTE (giacomo @ May 21 2009, 22:02)
This thread opener is pure comedy gold. Its best part is the attempt to declare Kimi Raikkonen being the 'king of Spa' on the basis of a piece of driving done in Suzuka... And of course the desclaimer of being a fanboy parade... 
imbecile..i had posted telemetries from the spa...pouhon/fagnes corner analysing kimi`s throttle modulation..these were taken from an article by mark hughes that appeared in autosport last year...it has been removed the moderators due to official content ....but its still there for everyone to see but the blind
plz dont post on this thread anymore ...i wont be replying to anymore retards
QUOTE (SpaMaster @ May 23 2009, 16:43)
Still, that did not explain how Kimi overtook him. Clearly, Schumacher was not expecting that. Anyway, F2004 was a great car - much better than MP4-19 - and tyre heat-up is part of the deal, I guess.
Umm yes it does, the Ferrari's were at the worst of the year that 'only' equal to all the others obviously due to the Michelins being better at Spa to make up for other cars deficits - MS simply got trounced at the restart by Kimi and then by JPM with the tyres lack of grip, it's no secret.
That day the Renaults were better, the McLarens were equal and the Williams and Honda were very close - clearly the Michy tyres were the ones to have that day. Kimi and MS ran 1.45's all day except that after each restart MS took 2 - 3 laps to get heat into the tyres. Rubens got his ass kicked by the way.
PM me and I will give you the link to watch the race as I have just done to refresh your memory and remember how much better looking they were.
4 wins from 7. Not bad, eh 
Fisi was faster. Had it not been for the restart and the advantage Kimi had with KERS, Fisi would pulled away.
QUOTE (MaxFan1 @ Aug 30 2009, 14:33)
Fisi was faster. Had it not been for the restart and the advantage Kimi had with KERS, Fisi would pulled away.
Could've, would've, should've
QUOTE (MaxFan1 @ Aug 30 2009, 14:33)
Fisi was faster. Had it not been for the restart and the advantage Kimi had with KERS, Fisi would pulled away.
That belongs in the Race discussion thread. This one is for old time Schumi fans to claim their driver is best
He may send a bottle of champagne to FIA stewards for not punishing him because of gaining an unfair advantage and overtaking one car after La Source off the track in 1st lap.
We know what happened to the guy that did exact same thing last year and even more, he give back that position...
Disgraceful decision by FIA stewards!
We know what happened to the guy that did exact same thing last year and even more, he give back that position...
Disgraceful decision by FIA stewards!
Kimi only won because of KERS, Ferrari was the 4th car, at best.
A win is a win is a win.
Without KERS the car would be faster in corners and Force India also has the option to use KERS if they want so that's the lamest excuse ever. Not surprised that Alonso fans, now feeling insecure, bring it up though.
And if Ferrari was the 4th fastest car, what does that say of Kimi who won?
Without KERS the car would be faster in corners and Force India also has the option to use KERS if they want so that's the lamest excuse ever. Not surprised that Alonso fans, now feeling insecure, bring it up though.
And if Ferrari was the 4th fastest car, what does that say of Kimi who won?
QUOTE (Alonzo @ Aug 30 2009, 13:39)
Kimi only won because of KERS, Ferrari was the 4th car, at best.
Well, that makes his win even more impressive.
People who play down KR´s performance should keep in mind Fisi also beat Button, Barrichello, Vettel, Webber, Hamilton, Kovalainen, etc. KR was the only driver who beat Fisi and everybody else, and therefore won deservingly.
QUOTE (Alonzo @ Aug 30 2009, 09:39)
Kimi only won because of KERS, Ferrari was the 4th car, at best.
I think he deserves more credit as he never put a foot wrong with all race long pressure.
QUOTE (Lazy Prodigy @ Aug 30 2009, 14:44)
I think he deserves more credit as he never put a foot wrong with all race long pressure.
cept cutting the first corner
Great Victory for Kimi, True spa master
4 wins out of 5 races...Sweet
you mean straight through the wall ??
4 wins out of 5 races...Sweet
QUOTE (Hypnotise @ Aug 30 2009, 18:49)
cept cutting the first corner
you mean straight through the wall ??
QUOTE (Alonzo @ Aug 30 2009, 18:39)
Kimi only won because of KERS, Ferrari was the 4th car, at best.
Sour grapes
Bitter that Alonso screwed it up in the first corner to loose the race later
A deserved win for Kimi, but I am glad this "Kimi is a Spa master action figure" nonsense is over. Nevermind that, Kimi should get penalised.
Nevermind that, Kimi should get penalised.
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