If you vote purely for being good through Eau Rouge, surely the undesputed king of spa for all time is Hans Joachim Stuck

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4bRW3tc8E...feature=related

here is the king of spa...

he wasn't on a bike.

If he had been, he'd still have been mighty!

Nice pit stop from Ferrari there.

That car had a compromised straight-line speed because of its front wing. Kimi would say later that the car was hitting the rev-limiter on the straight. So, the pass is a bit more complicated than how it looks on TV.

I'm well aware of what counts. That doesnt make fastest laps meaningless when judging a driver. Look at Kimi's percentage, he's got fastest lap in almost 1 in 4 races he's started. He's only bettered by Michael Schumacher, Jim Clark, Alberto Ascari, Stirling Moss and Fangio.

Going by the title, I thought this was about Jim Clark.....

I don't remember any WDC by the name of Stirling?

Kimi 3 wins.
Clark 4 wins.
Senna 5 wins.
Schumacher 7 wins.

Moss is easily better than the first one mentioned and at least the equal of the others. The WDC is not the only measure of greatness, contrary to popular thought, Moss being a superb racer by any measure.



Clark is one only listed who actually won on the old course and not the current ersatz Spa, which as good as it is does not hold a candle to the old course. Therefore, I disregard the others since they competed on a course totally different from the one Clark raced upon. They just happen to be in the same area and some parts of the old circuit being used in the current one.

Kimi 3 wins.
Clark 4 wins.
Senna 5 wins.
Schumacher 7 wins.

Kimi 3 wins.
Clark 4 wins.
Senna 5 wins.
Schumacher 7 wins.

Kimi 3 wins.
Clark 4 wins.
Senna 5 wins.
Schumacher 7 wins.

Now, I don't dispute your claim about the old Spa vs. the current Spa, but I do think it a little odd how the older folk (in all areas of life) always seem to sing the same tune: the old was better than current/new. How odd, really. If that was truly the case, then the world would be in continuous decay. And by the way, that would mean that our parents had it worse and were worse than their parents, and they had it worse and were worse than their parents, and so on. So basically, cavemen were vastly superior to anyone today... Or could it be that, individual exceptions aside, the new stuff is generally actually superior to the old? Hmm, now there's a thought.

It would be impossible for Raikkonen to have 7 or more wins because he's only participated in six Belgian GPs. So far, he's won 3 which is a 50% winning ratio, compared to:
Clark - 50% (4 from 8)
Senna - 50% (5 from 10)
Schumi - 53.85% (7 from 13)
Not much difference there then.

MS didn't participate in 99.
So that's 7 from 13


Edit
MS statistics on this track is pretty staggering come to think of it.

1st place - 7 times
2nd place - 3 times
DNF - 3 times (91 first corner clutch failiure, 94 winning the race but laterDSQ, 98 accident while leading)

In the modern racetrack I don't think anyone comes close to that.

Kimi's stats on this track are impressive too:

1st place - 3 times
18th place - 1 time, really a DNF (crashed out on second last lap in rain while leading)
DNF - 2 times (01 transmission failure on first lap, 02 engine failure after 35 laps)

Basically every time he's finished the race he has won.

The Spa-Francorchamps circuit that Clark raced on bears little to no resemblence to the current Spa circuit. That the course Clark raced on was slightly beyond the pale even in its day was simply how things were then.

Another twist here. I just saw that MS has won 6 times, not 7 (cheapracer must have counted 94 win too)

So
1st place - 6 times (6/13 - 46% win ratio)
2nd place - 3 times
DNF - 4 times (91,94,98,05)

I did, you didnt ask ;)

It's still a win ratio of 7/13 since the topic in hand is the king of Spa - he did win fair and square on the track (including a spin) and then it was officially taken away later, nothing to do with his driving or a cheating car.

I'm probably going to regret using the word cheating ......

...nothing to do with his driving or a cheating car.

Now that the "fastest man alive" myth has been put to rest, is this the new attempt at creating another one?
"Kimi Räikkönen, king of Spa"?

No complaining from me

Does this mean that Lewis has a 50 % ratio as well?

I did, you didnt ask ;)

It's still a win ratio of 7/13 since the topic in hand is the king of Spa - he did win fair and square on the track (including a spin) and then it was officially taken away later, nothing to do with his driving or a cheating car.

I'm probably going to regret using the word cheating ......

Are you counting on the one Ms was disqualified dur to irregular wood plank?
Also please apply the FIA Extra Helpings factor to your stats.
Thank you!

In term of stats and brillance, only Clark comme close to Schumacher, The Real Master of Spa.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP2beoMYkzU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEhPHPvXfLY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lha_ZqWxCJA

Raikkonen ? Beaten by Coulthard ( ) in 2002 and Massa in quali both in 2007 and 2008.

You would be surprised at how many of the folk around here not only know the 'Clark' track but have virtually driven it through the Grand Prix Legends simulator.

I can't get Youtube in China but am certain that if you do a quick search in Google with "Grand Prix Legends lap of Spa" or "lap of Spa GPL" or some variation you can see some virtual in-car laps.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&saf...amp;btnG=Search

Given that the GPL rendition of the old Spa is pretty inaccurate means it would be a waste of time ......

MS is 6 wins out of 14 races. DNF count as in 1994. and it is cheating running the car low as Benetton was down on power and it was talked about teams might cheat like this on Eurosport on the Friday practice shown in 1994. Benetton, more precisely Schumacher was the only one that did it, again.

In the 2005 season there was IMO none better than Kimi at managing the tires. When everybody had to slow down, he was still able to go fast and set fastest laps. With the MP4-20 where was his teammate in the dominant car?

MS didn't participate in 99.
So that's 7 from 13


Edit
MS statistics on this track is pretty staggering come to think of it.

1st place - 7 times
2nd place - 3 times
DNF - 3 times (91 first corner clutch failiure, 94 winning the race but laterDSQ, 98 accident while leading)

In the modern racetrack I don't think anyone comes close to that.

BTW, Montoya had Kimi covered in Spa in 05 it was team orders that decided the outcome of that race.

The only thing Montoya 'had covered' that weekend was Pizzonia's BMW..

BTW, Montoya had Kimi covered in Spa in 05 it was team orders that decided the outcome of that race.

sure Pizza boy knock Montoya out of the race and was fined for it.. but that was after Montoya had already given up his race lead to Kimi due to team orders..

You must have forgotten he lead the race from pole. And his pace after first stops was dictated by the team, he needed to slow down, as he admitted, to make it easier for kimi to catch up to him since he was behind. Kimi was still in contention for the wdc and team orders in this conditions are obvious as we've seen in recent years with ferrari.
After the race, JMP admitted he was following team orders and suddently Pizza came from behind and crashed into him. Kimi won this race just like he won Brazil 07 and just like Massa came second last year in China.

The king of Spa

NOTE..i didnt make this thread to go on a fanboy parade...or to bash other drivers...this is meant for discussion on relative DRIVING STYLES and technical issues of driving.
As identical as two drivers may seem in f1,driving seemingly identical racing lines and braking points …there is a world of difference when it comes to the ability of some to extract more from the same package,and the untouchable speeds that some can attain when the cars starts to respond to their unique instincts.
Im going to discuss some observations that ive found breathtaking watching kimi over the years…im going to explain why he is an unmatched driving talent….
The genius throttle modulation and sensitive braking abilities will be showcased in the examples below
Ill start off with SUZUKA 05 where kimi overtook fisichella on the last lap to win the race.

http://www.dailymotion.com/haguchan/video/15595432
start watching from 2:00….sorry I couldn’t find a shorter clip..the management has been very efficient in removing official content from websites

The action starts with fisi defending the inner line on the last chicane..what follows this,is the main straight
kimi takes the outer line...by doing that he hasnt stayed behind fisi and has avoided the front wing giving up on him
uses to toe to close even further...gets nearly even on the end of the straight
fisi uses the superior top speed of the R25 ..moves past ..kimi has to reallign
kimi moves moves out of the racing line(this is the last lap...the rubber debri is at max)
fisi needs to defend on the inside...this is free from marbles as this is the pit exit.
kimi goes up,does the same on the chicane,fisi again defends,kimi ends up even closer,realligns again,uses the toe to get even
fisi holds up again..kimi doesnt backout,his left front and rear tires are now out of the racing line.
kimi holds the line and then BRAKE/THROTTLE/BRAKE..
fisi only brakes or throttles considereing hes in clean air now..kimi is now in front and recovering from the marbles..
kimi makes it!

. Just look at the brake throttle pattern of both drivers and you should know he’s doing something special.
THE BACKDROP
THE MP4-20.
This was undoubtedly the fastest car of the season(esp. second half)..the dominace enjoyed by kimi with the 05 mclaren is unparalleled thoughout his whole career.however the reliability of the car unfortunately was pretty much evident to all
THE FRONT WING…this was a two edged sword..it was a weak aero component but wasn’t without its benefits….it was Adrian newey who designed this wing and was composed of 3 parts. .if viewed laterally, was wide but also somehow shallow
Gary Anderson (designer and director of Jordan) said that they had tried that and worked great on the straight but as soon as the car was turning its efficiency dropped considerably so he added that he was wondering why McLaren was using that design,.well actually newey managed to make it work the opposite way around

Despite Anderson’s doubts it was obvious that Newey found something to compensate or work around the defect Anderson pointed to,. the wing worked very well cause the mp4-20 was the fastest of all while turning
But it wasn’t perfect when following another car closely.The front end of the car used to wash away while in a turn.we saw proof of that in Silverstone when Kimi was following Schumacher .now I can hear you say, every car does that, yes it does but not as badly as the MP4-20. Another thing to notice is that Renault had a better straight speed than McLaren and this is logical because we can’t have the MP4-20 being faster while cornering without more wing which in turn would reduce the car’s top speed when compared to the R25;
In short Kimi couldn’t follow closely and didn’t have the straight speed to pass Fisi, so how did he? …now he had earlier overtaken Schumi in the same spot but it was different cuz the F2005 was actually SLOWER on the speed trap than the McLaren and Kimi passed Schumi without going off the ideal line.
Now the scenario we have here is that Kimi can’t follow as closely as he needs to, and can’t beat the R25’s top speed…rest is what RON DENNIS described as
THE GREATEST OVERTAKE IN F1 HISTORY

One may say that racing drivers with manual transimmision cars use throttle while braking and downshifting.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe).. Very common technique.but it takes ultimate talent and skill
To use it to pull off that manuevre
Another commonly made observation is that kimi was driving an ideal car in 2005 (the mp4-20)? Ill say Definitely NO.

one may ask, Wasn’t the MP4-20 an ideal car for kimi?After all in many places, news and forums, that car is described as a car that did everything Kimi asked of it and even more! I don’

This thread opener is pure comedy gold. Its best part is the attempt to declare Kimi Raikkonen being the 'king of Spa' on the basis of a piece of driving done in Suzuka... And of course the desclaimer of being a fanboy parade...

Source? Link? All i remember was Monty crashing out,when he should have finished 2nd before Alonso.