NOTE..i didnt make this thread to go on a fanboy parade...or to bash other drivers...this is meant for discussion on relative DRIVING STYLES and technical issues of driving.
As identical as two drivers may seem in f1,driving seemingly identical racing lines and braking points …there is a world of difference when it comes to the ability of some to extract more from the same package,and the untouchable speeds that some can attain when the cars starts to respond to their unique instincts.
Im going to discuss some observations that ive found breathtaking watching kimi over the years…im going to explain why he is an unmatched driving talent….
The genius throttle modulation and sensitive braking abilities will be showcased in the examples below
Ill start off with SUZUKA 05 where kimi overtook fisichella on the last lap to win the race.

http://www.dailymotion.com/haguchan/video/15595432
start watching from 2:00….sorry I couldn’t find a shorter clip..the management has been very efficient in removing official content from websites

The action starts with fisi defending the inner line on the last chicane..what follows this,is the main straight
kimi takes the outer line...by doing that he hasnt stayed behind fisi and has avoided the front wing giving up on him
uses to toe to close even further...gets nearly even on the end of the straight
fisi uses the superior top speed of the R25 ..moves past ..kimi has to reallign
kimi moves moves out of the racing line(this is the last lap...the rubber debri is at max)
fisi needs to defend on the inside...this is free from marbles as this is the pit exit.
kimi goes up,does the same on the chicane,fisi again defends,kimi ends up even closer,realligns again,uses the toe to get even
fisi holds up again..kimi doesnt backout,his left front and rear tires are now out of the racing line.
kimi holds the line and then BRAKE/THROTTLE/BRAKE..
fisi only brakes or throttles considereing hes in clean air now..kimi is now in front and recovering from the marbles..
kimi makes it!

. Just look at the brake throttle pattern of both drivers and you should know he’s doing something special.
THE BACKDROP
THE MP4-20.
This was undoubtedly the fastest car of the season(esp. second half)..the dominace enjoyed by kimi with the 05 mclaren is unparalleled thoughout his whole career.however the reliability of the car unfortunately was pretty much evident to all
THE FRONT WING…this was a two edged sword..it was a weak aero component but wasn’t without its benefits….it was Adrian newey who designed this wing and was composed of 3 parts. .if viewed laterally, was wide but also somehow shallow
Gary Anderson (designer and director of Jordan) said that they had tried that and worked great on the straight but as soon as the car was turning its efficiency dropped considerably so he added that he was wondering why McLaren was using that design,.well actually newey managed to make it work the opposite way around

Despite Anderson’s doubts it was obvious that Newey found something to compensate or work around the defect Anderson pointed to,. the wing worked very well cause the mp4-20 was the fastest of all while turning
But it wasn’t perfect when following another car closely.The front end of the car used to wash away while in a turn.we saw proof of that in Silverstone when Kimi was following Schumacher .now I can hear you say, every car does that, yes it does but not as badly as the MP4-20. Another thing to notice is that Renault had a better straight speed than McLaren and this is logical because we can’t have the MP4-20 being faster while cornering without more wing which in turn would reduce the car’s top speed when compared to the R25;
In short Kimi couldn’t follow closely and didn’t have the straight speed to pass Fisi, so how did he? …now he had earlier overtaken Schumi in the same spot but it was different cuz the F2005 was actually SLOWER on the speed trap than the McLaren and Kimi passed Schumi without going off the ideal line.
Now the scenario we have here is that Kimi can’t follow as closely as he needs to, and can’t beat the R25’s top speed…rest is what RON DENNIS described as
THE GREATEST OVERTAKE IN F1 HISTORY

One may say that racing drivers with manual transimmision cars use throttle while braking and downshifting.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heel-and-toe).. Very common technique.but it takes ultimate talent and skill
To use it to pull off that manuevre
Another commonly made observation is that kimi was driving an ideal car in 2005 (the mp4-20)? Ill say Definitely NO.

Wasn’t the MP4-20 an ideal car for kimi?After all in many places, news and forums, that car is described as a car that did everything Kimi asked of it and even more! I don’t think so…….Do you remember JPM complaining the whole year about understeering? I do, he was doing it so often while Kimi remained silent that many thought the car was perfect for him, further more a guy I know said to me once, Kimi most likes understeering cause he’s doing so well with that car. The MP4-20 was indeed an understeering drive, you just need to check a few clips from JPM that season, yet some onboard shoots from Kimi would almost look like the car is OVERsteering, Why?

Because if there’s a way around a car Raikkonen will find it and he’ll make the darn thing to go on its limit, all F1 drivers are great and all will drive on the edge with every bit of their hearts and bravery, being on their limits doesn’t mean the car is on its edge, only a few ones can make the car go that way and Kimi of one of them. How did he manage to make the MP4-20 to turn almost like an oversteering car (provided he was not closely following other cars) ?
he would initially make a subtle turn approaching the curve aiming for the apex, then the right amount of braking and more turning but just a little more, then the rest of the steering would be against a cold calculated and gradual release of the brake and then the throttle. He may also use, like he did in turn 1 Suzuka 2005 the video I linked, something called LIFT OVER OVERSTEER(This aggressive driving style in effect allows torque to the rear wheels to semi-control the weight transfer forward during this critical time. And in extreme instances, the application includes short bursts of throttle to induce oversteer to tuck the nose in towards the apex. The technique is very difficult to master and the latter somewhat controversial.") or to put it simply,it is to lift off the throttle in the middle of a fast corner the weight balance of the car will change and the result would be an oversteer that eventually he would fix with a gentle brake then throttle again, that’s why the brake-throttle graphic on that video is so important, Kimi is forcing the car into oversteer, it’s not an oversteering car!…this is one gifted guy performing one of the most difficult rallying techniques at nearly 200MPH with Fisi’s car closer than you would like to watch the TV in your room, And by the way is the last lap, do you imagine how much dirt is waiting out of the racing line in the last lap.

It is one thing to say that lifting off the throttle would move the weight forward and induce oversteer and it’s another very different thing to try it in that pass. So when you hear something like the balance of that car most be incredible in order to allow raikkonen to make that pass,…u could ask yourself the question considering the MP4-20 in mind.the answer is simple..



There was this great article by mark hughes last year..think many of u would’ve read it ..i don’t think I can post scans form that article here due to copyright issues(right?…or can I?)
Hugues describes that 08 came as a surprise to most paddock pundits,with felipe enjoying a more successful season,outscoring kimi 6-2 on both poles and race victories.JUST HOW MUCH DEPENDS ON THE RACING TRAITS OF A CAR AND HOW IT FITS WITH THEIR RESPECTIVE DRIVING STYLES IS A MUCH OVERLOOKED FACTOR.
Mark explains that the f08 was an understeering car especially on new tires in qualifying.while this fitted perfectly with massa`s racing traits..kimi hated it.YET in the faster corners,where a racing car mostly tends to oversteer and the delicacy of throttle input becomes super important,raikkonen maintained his superiority..this is shown clearly in the telemetry below.these paint a picture of raikkonen being a much more subtle and sensitive performer,driving in a way that aids to the performance of the car,rather than merely responding to what the car does.
We get a hint of how the picture turns decisively against kimi with this current f08 car on slow corners as we take a look at the telemetry from the spa-fagnes corner just after the high speed pouhon.
NOW FIRSTLY
http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/fr...turns78and9.jpg

…okay this is the telemetry trace from the Turkish grand prix 08…turns 7,8 and 9
massa(red) and raikkonen(green) have nearly identical turn 7 entries and exit,even though kimi is slightly less progressive on the throttle.into turn 8 however..massa lifts off too earlt giving kimi an immediate speed advantage..lifting off early has given massa a chance to get back at it early too..but that’s only given him a further moment,meaning he has to get back out of it again.raikkonen`s throttle usage is much more progressive and his feel for when the car will be able to accept his inputs better defined..Istanbul,s oval corner is almost an oval,meaning the inputs have to be kept at a minimal.,thereby keeping its pitch consistant and allowing better airflow thru its aero dyanamic components,therefore more grip.kimi gets a significant advantage here thru his finer honed inputs..into turn 9,kimi is later on the brakes and faster into turn..
now cuz hes arriving at the apex with greater break pressure than massa,the front of the car will not accept as high a speed for direction change,so his minimum speed is slightly lower than massa`s..but the time lost will be much less and gained thru his faster entry…the jsawtooth like trace on the throttle curve midcorner are software blips for downchanges.
These laps are from Q2 where kimi was 0.1sec faster than massa..massa eventually went on to secure pole position in Q3..0.3 sec faster than kimi…massa gained on kimi on the previous turns 3-6 which are slow,downhill corners inducing understeer.

ONTO MAGGOTS/BECKETTS

http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/fr...tonemaggots.jpg

Kimis superb fast corner feel is again very evident here..in the fast left handed approach to the maggots,kimi is much more progressive in how he comes off the throttle..and he never comes off that much..the trace shows that he never drops to 50 % throttle here while massa drops to as low as 30%…this is shown in kimi`s superior speed graph,maintained despite a quick flick of corrective lock from kimi seen in the steering angle..now kimi makes a quick lift I the last part of the corner and massa doesn’t..this is because massa`s slower speed doesn’t exceed the available grip,the way kimi`s does…then massa is flat out all thru the right handed part of maggots,whereas kimi does a quick lift near the end
Now THIS lift has allowed kimi to get further over the right side of the track,giving him a much more wider approach to becketts.this allows him to maintain more throttle at the entry,around 25% compared to 0 from massa..this gives kimi a significant mid corner speed advantage.the steering graph shows that kimi needs less lock here than does massa…now both use a little left foot braking midcorner at becketts and again into the following right hander,to reduce the midcorner understeer…but kimi`s brush of the pedal is gentler,taking less momentum outta the car.
These laps are from Q2 where again kimi was 0.1 sec quicker.

SPA ..POUHON/FAGNES
http://s561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/fr...ouhonfagnes.jpg

Pouhon is the most demanding of corners,with a blind exit and has a tricky mid corner bump.after the fast 7th gear entry ,massa is much earlier off the throttle and much harder on the breaks(2wice as hard)..kimi actually begins breaking while still on the throttle(flash back suzuka 05)..giving a gentler input to the car,this induces less pitch,more aero grip.kimi`s speed graph is immediately up as a result,an advantage that is maintained throughout the corner.
Now another interesting thing..the sharp peak in kimi`s midcorner throttle is due to a DOWNSHIFT TO 6TH.this makes the rear end sit up and squat more,giving a much more stable feel to the rear end,further helping him.
Now onto the lowspeed fagnes,massa has breaked significantly later and is faster into it…the graph blips for 3 downshiftings and as he reaches the apex.he cant change direction at as high a speed as kimi simply cuz he has more brake pressure acting on the tires from braking so late.so he`s a little slower than kimi at the apex but is able to get on the throttle earlier and harder for the exit and his speed trace overtakes kimi,s…
But as they head for stavelot,kimi`s slower exit from previous turn has allowed him to get on the throttle earlier and he is ahead on the trace again.


With the evidence of telemetry,if ferrari could deliver a car with less slow corner understeer oon new tires,a car more like mclaren,then raikkonen would emerge as the faster driver once again

NOTE…watch onboard videos of kimi on the faster turns in f1…and u see him using opposite lock correction mid corner.. When drivers try to find that extra speed via oversteer, they balance it with opposite lock. The car moves forward all the time. That gives you the extra time to do opposite steering correction to counter that extra speed they exploited for the corner that can only take so much steering turn in

ANOTHER EXAMPLE..
1.massa pole spain07
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/haguchan/v...ain-pole1_sport watch from 1:04

2.kimi pole08
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/haguchan/v...ole-spain_sport

massa while commenting on the lap,complains about the oversteering section(turn 12,last section of the track) and the carloks very tentative and guarded…kimi seems to enjoy that section as this suits his proves perfectly

KIMI AND ALONSO..
Kimi spa onboard
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/haguchan/v...07onboard_sport

alonso spa onboard
http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/searc...francorch_sport

watch the entry into pouhon..kimi carries more speed into the corner which forces him into opposite lock correction…he also turns later..alonso is a lot tighter…this comes as a surprise as the Ferrari`s supposed to be the understeering car here..a factor could be that fast corners ultimately make rear heavy cars act like understeering cars…but the Ferrari was the understeering car to start with..so the fast corner fact works in combination with the actual nature of the car

3,..Ok this is my favourite one of all..
kimi 2 secs faster than anybody.
http://www.dailymotion.com/user/haguchan/v...og-montoy_sport

Kimi is mighty, there's no doubt about it, i wish he still raced at mclaren, but thats a different discussion. However, all this, saying he is better with this and what not, doesn't mean a thing, the fact still remains that kimi can't acclimatise himself to a car that isn't to his particular liking very well, and to add to that, kimi was a different man in 05 to anything we've seen before. he was on his game, these days he isn't.

I must agree. It seems he's half sleeping nowadays. If he'd stayed at McLaren he would probably have 2 WDCs under his belt by now.
I miss the sharpness in his driving, he just seems a bit lost sometimes.

IMHO you havent proved anything whatsoever. You have taken a few examples from around 150, obviously ignoring all the ones where he didnt get it right. He is a talented driver, but as the last few seasons at Ferrari have shown, he is not head and shoulders above others and like most other drivers is only as good as the car he is driving.

the analysis with turkey,silvers,spa is from 08...he hasnt lost any of his sharpness i believe...u just dont lose your skill like that...apart from understeering issues,his achilles heel`s have been the tires..which he hasnt been able to warm up in qualifying.this has been discussed enough before i believe
i support u fully on the mclaren comment..they were deadly as a combo
again as i mentioned,this thread is here to discuss driving styles and not some fanboyparade or bashing trip

I guess we can hype any driver in the very same way, just pick his best ever drives and make them sound like something never seen or heard about before.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7j1VuMb8-U

Massa was faster than him in spa last year with more fuel in qualy.

What's the point of being the king of spa if you are not faster than the other?

Kimi was 2s faster than everybody during a short period of a wet race.

So were alonso, button, hamilton, massa, vettel, webber, glock, etc... during other wet races.

i don't like this trend of over analysis of driving styles, and i think it was mark huges who started it so its fitting you should mention him. Yes Kimi modulates the throttle, brakes and steering wheel to make the car respond in certain ways, but so do they all, its called....... driving! kimi has proven to be very fast at times, can we not just leave it at that? if you asked him about the way he 'maximises the transitional apex moment' (not a quote, but the sort of stuff that usually features in these articles) he'd laugh at you, and rightly so, drivers respond to their cars handling, end of, they don't particularly plan it before they go out on track, they do work with setup to give them a balance they feel comfortable with and then they do have to adjust to the way a car feels in a race.

did u even read 5% of what i wrote???...dude i have nothing against massa..what i did was post comments by a respected journalist on sophisticated telemetry data
and u have the audacity to still come up with the ''nooooooooooooo,my driver is fashterrrr '' comment
this is a not about this!!!...are u a retard?.
cant we have any half decent discussions about drivers and their respective styles????

no i dont think there is any such thing as over analysis..it may seem like over analysis to the actual guy doing these things(the driver) because all of this comes soo naturally to them....but to us mortal fans and amateur drivers...i think it gives us a chance to understand more...
do u want to sit in front of a tv screen each weekend and watch these people drive laps and laps around the circuit with no insight of what is happening insight the cockpit?????.u wan to''leave it at that''?..thats yer choice...to an absolute newbie,maybe yes..but to some one trying to understand the limits that these people push these cars to,a more technical analysis of each aspect is very attractive
yes each driver modulates the throttle,,brakes and steering...but not to same limit of talent and expertise...nor do two drivers break at exactly the same points...nor do they manage the throttle the same way each corner...
there is a reason why these analysis are done...theyre done for people to whom even the most minor of differences b/w two drivers styles is worth pondering on...i for one find this the most interesting aspect of f1...
all of these guys are very fast..theyre arguably the cream of the racing talent around the world..its these tiniest of differences b/w that separates the very fast from the fastest....and i find these analysis very informative and discussable...

ok, i accept saying 'leave it at that' is a bit much, in my view if you want to understand more about driving technique get yourself on a track, i don't know how much experience you may or may not have but its the only way to really get a feel for what its all about, reading and writing about it in such detail is no substitute

As to Kimi, he is very good at spa i agree

Where did I say anything along those lines?

And why use abusive language, is it difficult to behave in a civilized manner?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, he is the most naturally gifted driver.

If he had the dedication of Alonso, he would have sealed many WDC's but he doesn't and that's what makes F1 drivers so special. We have different personalities, different working methods and it's what separates them.

Kimi is unique, he may not be the best driver out there now but we know he is capable of special things. Yes, he may only go fast when the car suits him perfectly, is that bad thing? I guess it is but it's a good argument for the teams to make a car specifically for him.

Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen (and now Button), we have had some good WDC's after Michael left.

Classic irony here , well done!

For the record, I'm with Thunder Cat on the topic of 'overanalysis' although I think it goes back much further than Mark Hughes. The top drivers are all good at what they do.

Yes you did, you just took to long to say that 'i'm a kimi fan and i want to kiss his bottom'.

The mans grossly overated, and here's a story how he got into mclaren.

Mclaren boardroom discussion: 08/08/2006
Office Worker 1: We really should sign that finnish driver, i think he's highly rated and really was the only one who could take it to shumi.

Office Worker 2: OK i'll sign him asap before someone else gets him.

Office Worker 1: Excellent, sign him tomorrow.

09/08/2006

Office Worker 1: Signed Raikonnen, got it confirmed.

Office Worker 2: Not Raikonnen you twit, i meant Hakkinen.

That's how it happened, pure a simple.

Was that supposed to be funny or something? I dont get it....

Anyways, yea, Kimi looked like a different driver at Mclaren. But some drivers have this ability to be good in whatever they're given and Kimi doesn't seem like that type. Its a fault, definitely, but it doesn't take away what he acheived(or should have acheived) in his Mclaren days. He was no doubt a top-tier guy in those days.

Is he overrated? By some. I also think he's underrated by some, as well, though.

I'll always root for the guy. He's got a great no-nonsense attitude.

It's not overanalysis. If anything, it is underanalysis because after reading your post I expected some more insight about why Raikkonen is slower than Massa in spite of what you said.

And in the same vein, a driver's current performance should not be dismissed because of a previous lesser one.

I think hes overrated, the whole myth that hes the most talented driver came because of the dominance of the MP4-20

Look at his career path into F1, tell me that's not down to talent! His first season we great for any rookie, let a lone a guy who had only driven 20+ open wheel races before.

His fastest lap tally is quite significant imo. Look at the telemetry data and then look at how many fastest laps he has:

http://www.statsf1.com/

There are people who say fastest laps are meaningless, but I disagree. When you rack up the number Kimi has it becomes very significant indeed.

The telemetry tells you a lot as well, some of you seem to be writing the examples given off and saying they are just a small number of examples chosen to provce a point and you could select similar for Massa. That isnt so, Kimi's telemetry consistantly shows far superior throttle modulation, and the reason Massa can outperform him is when the car is understeering. When the car is oversteering Kimi is king, and it's interesting that Vettel prefers a more pointy car as well and Red Bull said they reckon that is the faster set-up, ultimately.

In the 2005 season there was IMO none better than Kimi at managing the tires. When everybody had to slow down, he was still able to go fast and set fastest laps. With the MP4-20 where was his teammate in the dominant car?

IMHO fastest laps stats are meaningless. If there were points awarded for having the fastest lap things could well look different. It's where they finish the race that counts, not one random lap out of the 60.

Lot of shallow comments - he's overrated, "Not Raikonnen you twit, i meant Hakkinen.", etc. for such a long and detailed opening post. Wonder how many actually read and understood what is written.

jano, you can say why use abusive language to the OP, but you are the one who posted "I guess we can hype any driver in the very same way, just pick his best ever drives and make them sound like something never seen or heard about before.". Clearly, the opening post is talking some very detailed stuff. But, your reply was not any better.

Just because Raikkonen does not go on and on about how great he is, people think he is dumb ass. He is lot more substantial and meticulous than people think he is. Another thing that's not mentioned here Raikkonen's ability to drive car is fuel save mode. Silverstone 2007 and Monza 2005 are good examples. As, Pedro de la Rosa said, there was no way to complete that Monza race with one stop without making a difference with driving style.

I am not sure about Raikkonen being the most overrated, underrated, etc. But he is the least understood driver. If one does not analyze his driving skill meticulously, the only thing casual observers would ever get from him is laptime. He is not going to say I took a different line, I found grip in other areas during rain, etc. But one good analysis of how he takes the Pouhon corner compared to others would reveal a good chunk about the guy.

Most of the criticisms are because of his 2008 season - That boils down to one simple fact: No tyre heat-up during qualy. Knowing Ferrari's tendency of having that problem over the years (since 2004, 2005), if people think it is entirely Kimi's fault, there is no point arguing. I do hope he regains his name back this year even if the car is not championship material.

I'm well aware of what counts. That doesnt make fastest laps meaningless when judging a driver. Look at Kimi's percentage, he's got fastest lap in almost 1 in 4 races he's started. He's only bettered by Michael Schumacher, Jim Clark, Alberto Ascari, Stirling Moss and Fangio.

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove. You mean that if I don't agree with him, and I do it in a civilized manner than he should start insulting me?!
What kind of weird logic is that?

Let's look to Pole Positions, and Race wins and F1 champion titles too. It looks like he's bettered by plenty of other drivers. Certainly a good driver but not more than Damon Hill, Jaques Villeneuve, Nigel Mansell and many other one timers.

As I said, for me it is meaningless. I would not compare drivers based on fastest laps. The driver at the front often doesnt need to push as hard as those behind and as there are no points awarded for it, they don't go all out to get it. As far as I'm concerned it is just a random lap, and it could be 2 seconds fastest than anyone else, but if the rest of the laps are slower it counts for nothing. To be honest I don't really care about Q stats either, especially since they introduced race fuelled Q's.

I meant - The opening post is quite detailed and long. You may not agree, but you don't need to say "hype, make his best drives sound like something never seen, etc". Your response was blindly dismissive and shallow. The post was analyzing his driving skills.

He is very good, what i don't like is the fact that they will blame anything else rather than himself when he hasn't done a good job, for example oh last year's car wasn't the way he likes that's why Massa got away with it, the car was developed for felipe and not kimi, kimi when he was on the mclaren 05 he was so good.

then in regards to when massa outqualifies him they will say well the problem isn't kimi it's the ferrari tires, they are bridgestone they just don't suit him, he was great with michellin, this one sucks.

So my question is, can kimi help any team develop the cars he drives? or he is just not into it that much to actually do it?

He might be very talented, but only when he has everything perfect exactly the way he wants. You throw in one small adversity and he disappears.

To answer your question:

The following article "Kimi Comet" from Dec 2007 Vroom, gives an account of Kimi from people associated with him during his karting career. His karting team manager, de Bruijn, talks highly of Kimi's developing and testing skills (last page). It also mentions how Kimi, even at an young age, had a knack of saving his vehicle from potentially destructive tyre wear.



A translation by Nicole


More on Kimi and machines..
Translated by vakie.


In addition to this, his engineers at Sauber, McLaren and Ferrari, Whitmarsh and Dennis have all vouched for Kimi's car-development skills. Just recently Whitmarsh responded to DC comments that Kimi has a very good feel for the car and very sensitive to what makes the car go faster and what doesn't.

Right, so 08 was just a bad dream, i'm so glad it didn't happen.

As i said, the one thing he doesn't seem to have the talent for is to drive around the problems of a car, or to be honest we can hardly call them problems, actually just the fact that the car as he says doesn't suit his style of driving, and that is why he was most abscent last season.

And from all people praising how well he works in developing the car add to that Luca di montezemolo and Stefano Domenicali who mentioned that they had something of the sorts of a joke in ferrari last year, that for half the season they had kimi, then for the last half they had kimi's twin.

Again my point is, he is very talented, there is no doubt about that, but when does he ever put his talents to work? he doesn't do it that often.

And i happen to think that talent wise kimi is even more talented than mika was, but the difference was one cared about it more, the other doesn't. A driver who drives for ferrari and doesn't seem to find the motivation to race, well i'm sorry, but that is where kimi loses all his points with me.

And to me the whole going backwards notion is just wrong, Kimi was so much better in previous years, and you had to wonder this guy is going to get better and better with time and experience, but it all happened the other way around. I don't get it why he never drove as well as he used to, he is a promise that we will never see fulfilled. That is the let down i feel about him. Thou he has a world championship, i will always wonder if he worked as hard as his teammate for example, he would have at least 3 championships before he retires. I always expect drivers to want always more, to never be satisfied... to always have a target.

There's a big difference between being dismissive and shallow(which I don't agree he was) and being insulting and offensive.

I don't know how your reply is pertinent to my post. That's your notion, fine. I am not interested in any argument. He is not motivated, does not have development skills, can't drive around a car with problem (Spa 2004??), does not work hard - all must be true at the same time because 2008 happened.

Whatever documented and analytical posts are posted, people are just going to repeat their opinions. Time to move off for me from this thread.

not just my notion, there is a general notion at the f1 paddock, the f1 press, the f1 fans, that kimi raikkonen doesn't achieve all that he could achieve. And it's a notion that he is extremely talented but he loses interest too often and too fast during the season, as time goes by, therefor we see that instead of seeing a driver that gets better with time, we see something the other way around. you see a kimi raikkonen in 2005, and you see that he has never been able to match that even the year when he was the champion.

Sorry I don't mean to be bashing him just for the sake of it, or to be a "hater" because i really am not, i like him, I think hes a great driver, this is why i am disappointed by him, because i always thought he could be alot more.

The development of the car, well i am one of those fans who thinks that driving in F1 is an art, you can't be good just in one thing, kimi has a very good driving technique. The fact that as you said, people have said that he knows exactly what will make the car faster and what won't, well it's one thing knowing it, its a whole different thing getting that message across, because at the end of the day the mechanics and engineers will be the ones doing that work, so a f1 driver needs to know how to communicate with his team, he has to know how to talk with each and every engineer that's working with him.

It's a team effort, so in my opnion you have to be a team player, rather than have the every man for himself aproach. I think this is where he fails as far as developing the car or simply having the car setup to himself as best as it can. Sometimes you need to be connected with the team in order to have this perfect understanding on how this machine works, and how we (as a team) will get there.

But just for the record SpaMaster, I agree with you, he has a very good driving style and technique. It's great to watch kimi racing in one of those days where he feels inspired and motivated, it's always a pleasure to see, it's no wonder i always want to see more of that kimi.

The post was biased and very one sided, and that's what I pointed out. Some people should learn to accept criticism. Replying with abusive language only proved my point about his fanboy stance, one that he was downplaying in his post.

And just to make it clear, I like and support Kimi as I did with every Ferrari driver, it's just these continuous need from some of his fans to hype him that I find useless and laughable.

I dont think it is, it highlights Kimi's strengths compared to his team mate. Nothing wrong with that.

The point of the story is, that the only time Raikonnen would be signed bt any team is by mistake.

I absolutely agree.

What total rubbish.

Fisi was a sitting duck. By the end of the race his rear tyres were completely gone and he simply could not get any traction out of any corner, especially the start/finish straight. Kimi was lapping 2 seconds a lap quicker...it was not even close to being a fair fight.

Fisi tried to block Kimi as best he could to try and stuff up Kimi's run onto the straight. He did this because he knew that Kimi was 16 km/h faster on the straight (confirmed by the Renault engineers after the race). So the R25 at that moment did not have a straight line speed advantage over the McLaren at all. Fisi then tried to block Kimi on the inside but Kimi just blasted past on the outside and was actually a whole car length ahead of Fisi before they had even reached the braking point on the front straight. It really was a very easy pass in the end.

For one, I dont remember Fisi or Renault ever saying anything about his tires being 'completely gone'. And if they were gone, why were they gone? He was running at the front the entire race with practically no competition to speak of. There's simply no excuse for having less tire than a guy who had to battle hard the ENTIRE race.

And Fisi did not block as best he could at all. In fact, he did an absolutely poor job of it. He kept blocking unnecessarily going into the chicane, which compromised his exit. This definitely made it easier for Raikkonen to simply get a proper exit and have the advantage down the straight.

BUT, the pass was not easy. Yes, he was ahead going into Turn 1, but he still had to take a late entry into that super-fast corner and he had to do it round the outside of Fisi. It was never going to be an easy pass to make. How often do we see passes on the outside going into that corner?

As far as I'm concerned, the pass was not the most impressive thing about that race. It was a great moment, but the greatest acheivement was going from 17th to 1st when a championship winning car was running at the front the entire time.

the kimi/bridgestone issue has been discussed in great detail in the past..thats why i didnt touch on it here..there have been various magazine articles on this as well .what little id like to add now is the reason as i think of massa being more succcessful in 08 despite all this is the constant understeering nature of the car and the bridgestone issue...the understeering thing comes as a huge susprise as from what it seems...MS also preferred cars with 'a 'planted'' front end as well..cars he could oversteer and throw agressively on corners...very opposite to a massa.so if ferrari was developed all around MS for all those years,the understeeirng nature of the car since 07..and esp. in 08 is still a dilemma for me..
i still think the tires issue is the main culprit here...considering the fact that kimi managed to work his way around the understeering mp4-20 where he had michelins not bridgestones..and also supported by the fact that he was able to post those fastest times in 08 at different parts of the race when the tires started working ...
im not going to touch more on the tire problem thing...anybody interested in the bridgestone/kimi situation should read the autosport article on this very tire issue last year i believe..sorry i dont remember the author's name...maybe someone can point that out..

i agree with u on the fact that it wasnt just the overtake but the aura of the whole race,, 17th on the grid..but for me ,still doesnt take away anything from the last lap overtake...its absolutely stunning even when seen as an isolated piece of action...as i wrote earlier,its even more impressive when u consider the disadvantage that front wing was while closely following.....Yes,fisi does defend when he doesnt need to at the chicane as kimi is way too back to make a move then,he doesnt get his exit right coming out of the chicane,gives kimi the chance to move ahead on the straight...but he still keeps the racing line...kimi has to brake on the outside on the last turn,fisi brakes just a tad earlier(which is surprising)..but to me its really the brake/throttle modulation that see at the last corner that made the move stick cuz fisi still had the inside line and the cleaner track

The king of Spa?
Albert II, the king of Belgium.

martin brundle did acomparison of driving styles in an itv feature aroundsilverstone, kimi preferred a 'osey' car where he could get the nose in and worry about the back later, i think this was similar to schumacher, and then alonso's aggression on the steering wheel creates understeer. he compared kimi michael alonso and i think maybe button aswell for the smoothness but definitely the first 3 i mentioned. search it im sure it would be on youtube

That car had a compromised straight-line speed because of its front wing. Kimi would say later that the car was hitting the rev-limiter on the straight. So, the pass is a bit more complicated than how it looks on TV.

I saw him take Eau Rouge on two wheels once, downhill, pedalling like mad! Fantastic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LA4bRW3tc8E...feature=related

here is the king of spa...

If you vote purely for being good through Eau Rouge, surely the undesputed king of spa for all time is Hans Joachim Stuck