Very, very nice topschrott. Who wrote the Daijiro Kato book, and what´s it like?
Mike Scott isn´t everyone´s cup of tea, but I love the way he writes. His Wayne Rainey biography was great IMO.

Hi,

262 Page..........

I have the Kato book and would recommend it.

If you want a proper book, get Franco Andreatini's biography of Dorino Serafini. (Italian text only but still worth it for the photos if you cannot read Italian). And Piero Taruffi's autobiography is a cracker - English version available.
For a very recent publication, see "Suzuki at the TT: 1960 to 1967" by Elwyn Roberts

I am not aware of anything along the lines of Nixon's excellent Silver Arrows book - which is interesting to a motorcycle fan not least because of the cross-over - Varzi, Nuvolari etc. The nearest may be Colombo's Lario TT but I do not think that there is anything in English. Vic Willoughby's "The Racing Motorcycle" has an informative chapter on pre WW2 race bikes.
Failing any recent publications, you may need to delve into the ancient publications, e.g. "Continental Circus" published by the TT Special in 1949, written by Ted Mellors who had by then sadly passed away. It can still be found occasioanlly at shows.

Has anyone here so far seen the new title MotoGP Source Book? I wonder whether it includes results beyond the points finishers...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1844257231

Serafini, thanks for your reponse. I will keep a look out for Continental Circus

There is a copy of Continental Circus for sale now on e-bay
Gary

I have this 1965 German book called
Sieg und Niederlage by Max Deubel und Emil Horner
with pasted in Photo's with Autographs.
Think it is a real treasure?
Paul

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=249421

see Ray Battersby's reply to my comments on STEALING SPEED, printed below.

*************

Erich Wolf - inventor of the expansion chamber exhaust

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Suzukijo has tempted me out of my box by seemingly reading between the lines of the 1961 Degner defection. The essential secrecy of this story - where those involved lived literally in fear of their lives - has provoked a great number of myths and legends. It has cast Ernst Degner as the baddie and Walter Kaaden as its genial and genius goodie.

For many years, I have toyed with the misinformation and rumours that have circulated about Degner and his defection. These myths and legends have not been challenged by the surface-scratching research of Degners many biographers over the last forty eight years. They have been content to regurgitate the errors of other writers to produce a rounded, plausible, interesting story. A professional writer does not have the time to conduct a great deal of original research. It is easier to read what others have written and then to form an opinion.

A good example of this recycling of errors is contained in the excellent MZ history written by Jan Leek who says that Walter Kaaden designed the 4S 293 missile. Actually what Jan meant to type was the HS 293, a typo not spotted by later authors who have repeated the same error.

Yes, we all love a story of mystery and intrigue so it is all too easy to believe what has been dished up so far. To a world so easily persuaded to part with confidential banking data by simply not applying the litmus test "Does it sound right?", it is small wonder these myths and legends still circulate.

Here is an example of a truth-defying myth. Degner deliberately blew up his MZ 125cc engine in Sweden in 1961 so that he could get on with his defection. RUBBISH. Here is a man who can win his first World Championship in this race and still defect afterwards as planned, not as the runner up but as the World Champion! Think how much more Suzuki would have paid Degner to join them as the reigning 125cc World Champion. In fact his DNF would not have allowed a speedier defection because the Kristianstad paddock was in the centre of the circuit with no bridge or tunnel to the outside world. So after his DNF, Degner had to wait with his car in the paddock until the race was over. And if he had been so keen to defect, why did he not turn left into West Germany instead of driving aboard the ferry to Sweden that weekend?

One of the most hurtful myths to the Degner family is the manner in which Ernst Degner died in 1983. According to web and printed media, he died in no less than five different ways, all incorrect; he died in a car accident, he was shot, he slit his own throat, he died of a drug overdose, he was assassinated by the STASI using a lethal injection. The truth is that he died of a heart attack.

For over thirty years I have studied the story of the Degner defection by meeting with those who were there at the time and have a story to tell. These have included Ernst Degner, Jimmy Matsumiya (his confederate), Messrs Ishikawa, Matsui and Nishi (of Team Suzuki), Frank Perris (rider), Mick Woollett (journalist) and Ralph Newman (Avon tyres) who were all staying in the Kristianstad hotel when Degner fled. I have interviewed Gerda Degner, his widow and their sons Boris and Olaf. I have questioned the widow of the man who smuggled the Degner family across the border in the boot of his car and I have heard the only tape recording of her late husband describing what he did and how he did it during an in-depth - though private - interview.

But the more I research this story, the more myths I come across. And these myths surround Walter Kaaden too. He is cast as being betrayed by his friend Ernst and often given the sobriquet genius or father of the modern two-stroke. And yet if you believe that he invented the expansion chamber, the rotary disc valve or the boost port, you would be wrong. Whilst these were all invented (and sometimes patented) by German engineers, they were all in the public domain before Kaaden used them and in the case of the rotary valve and the boost port, whilst Kaaden was still wearing short trousers.

People who have interviewed Kaaden told me that he was a nice man with an affable, avuncular personality. But he surely was not quite as clever as modern non-technical historians would have us believe.

For example, it is said that Kaaden worked at Peenemunde during World War II designing the V1 (Flying Bomb). I am uncertain that Kaaden ever worked at Peenemunde - though he may have been involved in some way with the HS 293 guided missile. This missile was actually invented by Professor Herbert Wagner at the Henschel aircraft factory at Berlin-Schoenefeld - not Peenemunde. It was in the Wagner team that Kaaden worked during the war. But when it all ended, why was Kaaden not snatched up by Von Braun or Herbert Wagner as they assembled their engineering teams for work in the USA? And after being passed over, what made the engineer Kaaden decide to set up a wood-working shop instead of an engineering workshop? These are the imponderables that will need to be filled with educated guesses.



Suzukijo reproduces an intriguing photo of a row of expansion chambers as fitted to early IFAs (IFA was not renamed MZ until 1956). What does this photo prove? In my view not as much as the above photograph proving that the first racing motorcycle to be equipped with an expansion chamber was actually a 1951 DKW 350-3. This futuristic machine was designed by their chief engineer, Erich Wolf, who also invented its expansion chambers. It revved to over 10,000 and was a potent racer.

The following season (1952) Kurt Kampf - IFA's racing manager - copied the Wolf design and fitted an expansion chamber to an IFA racer. Kaaden succeeded Kampf as race manager at IFA the following year (1953) and continued the work of Kampf on expansion chambers. But who mentions the important parts played by Wolf and Kampf in the story of Walter Kaaden?

And here is the reason; we all like to see David slaying Goliath so our natural sympathies lie with poor old Walter Kaaden and his MZs, running on a shoestring budget and giving the mighty Honda the scare of its life.

Here is another truth. The guy who drove the Degner family over the border into West Germany lived in fear of his life. For the rest of his life. His wife told me that he always slept with a loaded pistol under his pillow because of his fear of STASI retribution. No wonder the people involved have kept schtum for so long and allowed the truth to be enveloped in a fog of histrionic rumours. To this day, Mrs Petry is reluctant to discuss the fine details.

The above casts a weak light into the murky depths surrounding the Degner defection. Yet there are other technical and historical truths that need to be told. One day, I hope to set the record straight, once and for all by publishing an account of what I believe to be the truth. Until then, I am resigned to being vexed by the myth-ridden scribblings of others.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
******************

Ray's reply is reprinted above, never in my dreams would i think Ray wuold have replied to my post.
the degner defection story is fascinating, having Ray add his comments to my post, wow.

Stealing Speed, had lots of background information about the time period, and it gives you a feeling for the situation involved.
Rays book "Team Suzuki", has much more detail about the people and actually what happened.

joe

These 2 can go for anything between less than £100 and well over £200 on fleabay, depending on condition, dustcover etc.
Just keep a saved search on the go for "Motocourse 1977" and "Motocourse 1978" and things will hove into view...!

I do like the way that Motocourse seemed to have an identity of its own in the early years, especially when it sponsored the "Young Rider of the Year " or whatever it was, with BP. "Motocourse thinks that rider x should do another season in the UK before trying his hand in europe" etc etc.

Welcome to the forum Suzukijo , fascinating stuff , well done , and thanks for that

Welcome Jo and thanks for these great pics there

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=249281

more from Ray, about the degner influence....
***********

Now as to Degner. The truth is that virtually all of the modern two-stroke's performance features - the sort of things that pushed it to an unbeatable performance level in GP racing from 1962 to 2001 - were all inventions of German engineers in the 1920s and 1930s. After the war, the West was simply too proud and arrogant to acknowledge the contribution made by these pioneering engineers and down-played the part they played. "Dammit. Why should we give the vanquished nation any credit. We won the war, Let's plunder their design offices." Which of course, they did with relish and the result was the BSA Bantam, the Saturn rocket and various jet fighter planes.

Degner's defection in 1961 with the MZ's secrets (which Kaaden had - how shall I say this kindly? - 'borrowed' from other manufacturers, most notably DKW and the privately built ZPH racer), placed these concepts in the hands of a company with a massive budget to capitalise on them. This was Industrial Espionage on a large and outrageous scale but few people outside of Suzuki racing fanatics know anything about it.

So Degner revealed to Suzuki all about Mahle's forged alloy pistons, INA's caged needle-roller small-end bearings, the Schneurle (boost) port, the rotary disc valve and the expansion chamber. Once Suzuki knew the basics about these topics they set to work with a zeal. Degner would never have known the formulae for designing an expansion chamber; it was Murai-San who tried various shapes and sizes on the race-shop dyno who worked it all out for himself. So it was Degner who put Suzuki on the right track but it was Suzuki people who worked out the details and continued the quest for more power (and reliability).

And guess what? Today, these same Japanese engineers who were happy to worship at Degner's knee in 1962 are in denial. There are Japanese forums where they gather to explain that they never needed Degner anyway; they could have done it all without him! Well, all I can say is there are very few engineers honest enough to say that he copied a basic design from a competitor. They want to take the credit for themselves.

So once Suzuki had debriefed Degner over the Winter/Spring of 1961/62, apart from any debt of honour, they didn't really need him any longer. They had the means to do it all for themselves. Here's a modern example. Suzuki's TSCC four valve cylinder head design was invented and patented by the late Vincenzo Piatti, an Italian engine designer and a good friend of mine. His licensing contract with Suzuki included a clause that he was never to claim that he had invented TSCC! I know this to be true because I've read Piatti's contract. In fact, at the press launch, Suzuki paraded one of their own engineers - Shirasagi-San - as its inventor. This illustrates just how proud Suzuki were/are and how far they go to shed the image of simply copying other people's ideas.

Now, your own machinery. There is no doubt their engine features were heavily influenced by Degner but I have never heard of these particular versions of production machines. Suzuki, and most Japanese companies, have operated the 'need to know' system for decades so it's perfectly possible that they would issue a race-shop developed performance kit for say, Thailand, and never mention this kit to any European distributor. That's the way they are. For example, how many people know that Suzuki used to race a single seater racing car - in Japan of course. I do know that the race shop built special machines to suit the needs of local markets such as Indonesia.

***************

sorry if this is in the wrong catagory, motorcycle racing books, I am new to forum, and didnt quite know where to put it.

Yes, I have seen these two volumes appear quite a number of times in the last few years, but I don’t think I’ve seen them go for under £100 in a long time. I’ve tried other online sellers too, but £280 (UKBookworld or AbeBooks), or higher elsewhere, seems a bit steep to me. There was the suggestion that Motocourse might digitise past editions but I don’t know what happens to that. I might still be able to read them via inter-library loan.

No answer on "subh's" post 56 ? (. I am still looking for COMPLETE results 1949-1968 .)

No results are given beyond the points finishers for 500/MotoGP, but each race is shown separately. For the other classes, only the top 10 finishers in the overall championship are shown.

Jim

Just finished reading both the Colin Seeley books , very good , great pics , but at times , a bit drawn out
Just about to start Reg Everett , From Rocker to Racer , i'll let you know

Have chewed my way through the Bill Lomas autobiography, what a good scout he was ! Could pedal ok but a good thinker as well, a most enjoyable read, and sort of like a drawn out chat with the lad. No doubt a professional proof reader would have culled it, but there's no sense of urgency in reading it, and it's a top effort.
Now beginning the Dick Mann bio by Ed Youngblood....curse you, amazon.com...

Must admit, I was a tad disappointed with this book.
Not as detailed as I'd hoped it would be, but that may have made it somewhat geeky.
I paid £15.90 fom Amazon, and that was about fair. I'd be miffed if I'd have paid the RRP of £30, though.

Just finished reading Reg Everett's book , From Rocker to Racer , a good read of one of the sixties top riders , who quit far to early , IMHO
With some great pics highly recommended

Bought the book ' Yamaha's Glorious Grand Prix History ' by Roger Gowenlock , a great write up of the factory team , blow by blow , race by race , with some excellent pictures and descriptions of the works bikes . Although I was around at the time it is a fascinating and well researched book and bought back wonderful memories of a great time in racing !!!

Agree with all of that, Phil. Very patiently assembled and researched, and he resisted the urge to paint Ivy as the naive victim and Read as the arch-villain which is so often the case, based more often than not on Ivy's subsequent unfortunate demise. And he's not particularly a Read fan, in fact he told me he spent some time interviewing Phil to clear up some relevant matters and found it somewhat trying. So he hasn't let perceptions cloud the narrative either. It'll be seen as a great reference book in the future, I think.

I still cannot understand no book has been made with COPLETE results on the world championships 50-500/Moto "something"! There must be someone who has these results. I would f.ex. love to know in how many races Bianchi participated and with what drivers ?

There is this website:
http://racingmemo.free.fr/

which has been mentioned before, of course...

Paul M

Hallo. Been lurking for awhile so I thought I had better join in.
I was wondering if any of you had come across this excellent pictorial publication by the German publishing house, Text and technik verlag. It´s called, "Days of Glory, the stars of Grand Prix racing", and covers the 50´s, 60´s, 70´s and 80´s.
There are 46 great photo´s of the top men from those times. I´ll reproduce a few from time to time if that is allowed.

Welcome to the forum , Terry , hope you will enjoy your experience , and that , I think is a new book to me It will be interesting to see the content

Just received my copy of Mick Walker's " German racing motorcycles", but I'm not overwhelmed by its contents... too many errors and I'm referring only to the obvious ones

I struggle with some of his stuff. At times they appear to be the result of a rush job, the layouts are kinda dodgy and often the best of the pics are questionably presented. Yes, he's poked out a swag of titles, but sometimes at the expense of the calibre of the output. Hats off though, he's still fairly moderately priced, so must be working to a budget.

Welcome Terry to the forum. Yes, I have an example of that one to. T&T also produce the wonderful 'Classic Moments' Calendar. I think I may have picked my copy up at the Centennial meeting at Assen or was it Schotten maybe ...I have a few signatures on the photo's...

I just found a copy of "John Surtees' Motor-cycle Racing Book" from a second hand bookstore here in Helsinki. A surprisingly good book with lots of b/w photos.

Hallo,

I received my copy of the Colin Champman book, written by Karl Ludvigsen, a few weeks ago.
It's a very good read, lots of details, drawings and pictures of his cars.

Just received my copy of the Peter Williams book.
If the text is as good as the pictures and the layout, it will be a very good read.
Haven't read it of corse, but do like the technical drawings of some of the bikes.

Oh and Amazone.co.uk is a cheap place to buy a copy of both.

Groet Remco

Rumour has it that the late Allan Robinson MBE wrote most of it