Gave me!

For pure speech and rethorics sake. Look at 3:46. Within LESS than a second he changed "First of all I've raced with Michael. Michael GIVE me" and the he instantly changed it to "GAVE me...". So is his brain slow or just the same?

Discovery Channel will make an documentary for sure!

about the personalities on this board or about Massa?

Wrong thread. Juan Pablo isn't in F1 anymore. You must have made a mistake. Take the next right, drive slowly and then left. That's your exit. Right besides that big garbage can.

Is there something wrong with you? If someone here has a negative outlook on Massas recovery you flip out? You can relax - Massa wont get any worse by what we write here.
And you obsessing about Massa being perfectly fine isnt going to make him any better either. So there is no need to get snippy with anybody who has a different view of Massas condition than you do. We all want to see Massa get better. But this thread allows us to voice our view of the situation. bl-f1 has some very valid points - and apparently the experience to back it up. And he is not alone in his concerns.

In your expert fanboy opinion of course, Christ on a bike it is indeed a miracle that we even own this chunk of dirt called Earth.

Well I found your comments reality based and very informing and can read the context of your posts that imply the variables one cannot assert without being the physician on hand.

If you have followed this thread, there have been other medical experts posting their opinions here.

It looked to me like you didn't show the humility you mention here in your initial post which the other experts did(considering that you do not have access to all the information that is required). You(and a few others) seem to have been offended by some of the reaction to that. I personally dont see anything wrong with that reaction, as much as some people dont see anything wrong with your initial claim of Massa not being able to race again(on the basis of a single interview).

VicR

It is YOU who clearly doesn't know a blessed thing about neurology, nor anything else about diagnostic practice, and are contesting the knowledge (not merely the opinion) of a person who briefly ran a neurosurgical practice set up by SID WATKINS!!!!

Have you heard of Sid Watkins?

This Sid Watkins:
http://www.grandprix.com/gpe/cref-watpro.html
http://www.forumula1.net/tag/sid-watkins/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sid_Watkins

In the meantime, strongly suggest that you follow Dragonfly's advice and stop being abusive to bl-f1.

Given that bl-f1 is a respected medical official for whom the topic of this debate is directly in his field of expertise and you are a random asshole who joined this BB four months ago, it is YOU whose opinion would not be missed.


Rinehart



First off, I wasn't addressing myself to you, but VicR, nor did I initially have your posts in mind when I composed my reply to him.

Second, I have absolutely no problem with you or anyone else believing one doctor over another, nor, as it happens, does bl-f1.

However, now that you've drawn my attention to them, there certainly is a problem with the way you express your disbelief in (rather than simple disagreement with) what bl-f1 has to say. In fact, this post:



... suggests to me that you have very little experience with the way that medical professionals can disagree about a diagnosis and treatment, and like VicR and highdownforce, have little or no experience with and knowledge about how neurologists make their diagnoses, and yet you set yourself up as a judge of his expertise.

Not only that, you've repeatedly suggested that bl-f1 is LYING about his qualifications and experience.

OK, then.

So if we do an inventory of the applicability to you of the epithets I use in my reply to VicR - it seems you're not being hysterical, and you haven't really ranted nor bloviated, but you've definitely been as rude as a baboon off the veldt.


EDIT: BTW, suggest you guys read umapython's post above.

Even though

a) I don't agree with him,
b) he clearly disagrees with bl-f1,

he managed to express himself without throwing down any obtuse jailyard challenges.

People do really fight over stupid shit in the internet.

Is that like TRON?

What else is there to do? Valencia is 2 weeks away.

That's true indeed and it makes me laugh when the internet get's blamed or the topics of conversations when in fact all it is is good ole human nature itself....'I know more than you do..I'm better than you are.....blah..blah...blah !' Pride pride and more pride.

Juan Kerr



You got that right.



Perhaps a bit of that, but also a dose of a moron's "who do you think you are?"

Me thinks some folks here are looking too much for gloom and doom into Felipe's interview in hospital. It was exactly one week after the accident and a few days after he came out of cranial surgery and artificial coma. The guy was obviously stressed out by his appearance, fatigued and depressed. Not to mention that English is not his native language (he was not the 2nd coming of Shakespeare before, that's for sure) and also that presumably, discussing medical topics - either in English or Portuguese - was not something he would have been intimate with, before his accident.

What worries me in his interview is a surprising lack of ... "for sure"!

I think it is really positive just in what good spirit and without real apparent ill effects he was so soon after what could easily have been a fatal accident. We may look into little details to see if there are things not quite well with him yet, but there are so many reasons as to why this could be (fatigue - try speaking a foreign language you are not fluent in when you are exhausted, medications, or actual brain trauma) that it is in my opinion a premature to speculate with any certainty just how long lasting the effects of the injury will be. Do not get me wrong, I thoroughly appreciate bl-f1's input as it is extremely insightful and made me appreciate just how complex such injuries can be, it is just that in light of scant evidence I prefer to take a more positive view of things, whereas professionals might be more inclined to look into details in order to make sure they don't miss any possible symptoms.

Nice post Gecko




Sending out a broad wink to my brothers in the jailyard!

Nothing wrong with that especially as a lot of time the professionals don't agree with each other aswell!

@VicR,
please go for a walk, watch some TV, play some sport, or something.
Nobody will know for sure what will happen to Massa for a while yet, but it's not good for you to get so wound-up about it.

Most folk with Da Matta's injuries would never "wake-up", let alone be driving cars a couple of years after the injury, so anything is possible, but the brain is a tricky thing. Don't expect to know how Massa will be for a while yet.
I'd love to see him in a car again next year, but worrying about it won't change anything.
I think what bl-f1 and others are trying to do is to set expectations at a reasonable level, anything better is a bonus.

I think it is just as likely that Michael is still giving him advice and he thought it would sound better to say gave me in the past tense and changed. After this he says "in my drive" instead of "driving". Is this proof he's brain damaged? I doubt it, more like he's not a perfect English speaker. He doesn't sound much different to me than he ever did.

I dont think its possible to speculate on the long term damage yet. Its likely he's still very groggy from the concussion and surgery and could yet make a full recovery. Prophesising otherwise is pointless.

So excuse me so bloody much for pointing out the fact that there seems to be a DOCTOR in the house who is making a diagnose on jack shit! No, I'm not 'blessed' with knowledge about neurology but I know bullshit when I see it. This is bullshit. The sadest thing is that this is an open forum. Anybody can write whatever they like for the entire world to see. A bullshit diagnose for the entire world to see. What if Felipe reads this? How will it help his recovery? Should he feel less stressed and scared? If 'bl-f1' would have had Felipe's best interest in mind, and if he's a real doctor as he says, he would have offered his opinion to Felipe, his family, Dr. Dino Altmann etc for free. That's if he would have had Felipe's best interest in mind. But no, 'bl-f1' says Felipe will probably never race again. What a nice guy, eh?

And what about by previous post? Where I point out that Felipe's brain seems to be working like it should? Any comments?

Compared to Häkkinen Massa's situation is excellent. Afterall accident changed Häkkinen much; facial-expressions, pace of talking, overall slowness. But most intrestingly the accident didin't seem to have effect on Häkkinen's speed even if otherwise there was lifelong effect.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=113203

Could be of course. But he changed it pretty damn fast in that case. Good or bad for his brain then?

You're absolutely correct that he sounds the same.

I agree about the speculating. Especially if people don't have all the FACTS. That's why I'm reacting. I really believe there are sinister powers working in this thread. I'm going to flush them out every single time.

I'm no philosopher, but I recognise a dichotomy when I see one.



I can't give a diagnosis on this post, but the prognosis isn't good. And I don't think a tinfoil hat would be anything more than a placebo.

I can't find anything in the forum rules that says that being qualified in a particular field stops a member from being allowed to post on that subject. Engineers and racing drivers are allowed to express an opinion on any subject on this board without necessarily having all the information to hand, so why should a doctor be any different?
If only those who had 'all the facts' were allowed to post here, it would be pretty quiet.

I do not wish to start an argument, nor do I have any desire to list my credentials but I strongly disagree with bl-f1. It is as irresponsible to offer a prognosis on a patient whose MRI you 've never seen as it is to base a prognosis on an interview done under circumstances you are not fully in control of.

Just for the record, Felippe was in an induced coma for 3 days, slurred speech and nystagmous are quite common in patients post barbs and can persist for up to two weeks without actually implying brain damage. That's why I have previously stated, TBI recovery is by no means charted territory, different things affect different patients. Felipe is well inside the window for Post Concussion Syndrome, it is impossible to call damage with no imaging and no neuro tests.

I will restate the opinion I stated earlier, from neurosurgical point of view I expect Felipe to be clear within 3 months, but that doesn't mean he will race then, it will depend on his non-surgical recovery. Having said all that, it is equal folly to proclaim Felipe cured because you heard it on the news, he's far from it. His condition is not life threatening, which is pretty much what should be the most important part, but I said it before and I will say it again, brain injury is NOT a common cold you can call recovery on, it takes time to heal and damage if any takes time to manifest itself.

Just for the unintiated, nystagmus is eye tracking irregularity (the DUI test cops give roadside is called lateral gaze nystagmus). Barbs means barbituates which are a class of sedatives. TBI is traumatic brain injury.

Unlikely he ever will, right? On what grounds? I'm asking again, on what grounds and on what evidence? Why is it unlikely?

Wouldn't it had been better if this, so called expert, would have picked up the phone and called Dr. Altmann and shared his opinion? For Felipe's best that is.

Doc...

Calm down a bit. Bl-f1 is sharing exactly the same fears as I am. I'm not a neurosurgeon, not ever a doctor, but I am a nurse and I've been working a lot with patients with brain injuries. I've so far refrained from posting my fears in this thread because I sort of knew beforehand my opinon would be questioned by total ignorants like yourself. Bl-f1 was braver than me.

Frankly, I've been appalled by some of dr Altmanns statements - not because I think him wrong but because it's WAY too early to tell whether Felipe will be OK or not.

I sincerely hope he will be OK and return fully-fledged to the wheel of the Ferrari and my heart says of course he will, but my brain - which makes deductions based upon my professional experience - is more doubtful.

One thing that speaks in Massa's favour is the quickness under which he came to treatment. "Normal" brain injuries aren't flown in and treated by the best neurosurgeons in the country just like that. The quicker the treatment, the less risk of permanent damage. I really do hope with all my heart this fact will make a difference in Felipe's case.

On what ground are you appalled? What do YOU know that Dr. Altmann doesn't? How has he been 'too early' with his comments? He has seen all the evidence, have you?



That's all well and good but stop listening to your brain in this case. Because you're clearly overreacting.



So what is the fuss all about?

Look we all want Felipe to get well regardless of our favourite team/driver. A lot of people have a lot of respect for Felipe (especially after his wonderful behaviour and performance in Brazil last year). Absolutely nobody is wishing ill on Felipe by giving the potential outcome of his accident. The problem is that the brain is very delicate and it doesn't take much to cause problems.

I must say I think VicR that your post about having brain damage was bang out of order. You dont know people on these forums, for all you know some people may have brain disorders (I suffer with juvenile myoclonic epilepsy) and may find that post EXTREMELY offensive.

A good reference (from what I can gather) of a famous person with a similar injury (as was mentioned on last weeks Top Gear) is Richard Hammond. He said from what he could gather it was a similar injury. He also admits he has never fully recovered.

I want Massa back asap but I dont want him to risk further damage by jumping back in too soon. All the good will in the world wont make him better any quicker, only time will get him better.

Closed and heavily edited this evening. New threads for new news please.