The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > Bishop rotary valve

gruntguru

Aug 22 2009, 04:19

QUOTE (desmo @ Aug 22 2009, 00:53)

Anyway... if as is certainly possible the writer of the following sentence ascribed to Tony Wallis,

QUOTE

QUOTE In 2002 the first V10 engines using this technology were built and tested exhaustively. A completely new V10 engine was designed and manufactured in 2003. Testing of these engines was prematurely terminated when the FIA announced changes to Article 5.1.5 of the engine regulations late in 2004 with the specific purpose of banning this rotary valve technology

was written based on no more than single cylinder mule engines and simulation work, then I'll say it: The writer of that sentence is a scamming liar who's only intent in writing that sentence was to mislead and deceive the reader. Which may be par for the course for sales types (they certainly always crept me out) and might explain my- and this is being charitable- lackluster performance in my short sales career

Tony Wallis is actually the inventor of the Bishop rotary valve (or at least the improvements to what is essentially a Cross rotary valve).

I agree totally with Desmo here. The article clearly states that V10 prototypes were built and tested so the assertion by McGuire and others that the engines never ran is undoubtedly an accusation that Tony Wallis has lied in that article.

Catalina Park

Aug 22 2009, 10:07

Apart from that one story do you have any proof that the engine ever ran or even existed?

The bloke that wrote the story may not have lied, his editor may have changed the words to improve the story.

gruntguru

Aug 22 2009, 11:06

QUOTE (Catalina Park @ Aug 22 2009, 20:07)

Apart from that one story do you have any proof that the engine ever ran or even existed?

The bloke that wrote the story may not have lied, his editor may have changed the words to improve the story.

1. There are a lot of details in the story that don't smell like a beat up.
2. Bill Sherwood has a friend who worked for Bishop and claims to have seen the engine run.
3. After reading Gerhard Schmitz's account of his difficulty dealing with Ilmor after MB took over, it seems possible that MB has hushed up the Rotary Valve project.

McGuire

Aug 22 2009, 19:17

QUOTE (gruntguru @ Aug 22 2009, 12:19)

I agree totally with Desmo here. The article clearly states that V10 prototypes were built and tested so the assertion by McGuire and others that the engines never ran is undoubtedly an accusation that Tony Wallis has lied in that article.

I never accused the writer of lying. You are reading more into the article than is there.

You remind me of a young man at the shopping mall the other day. He leaped out at me from behind his kiosk, blocking my path, and yelped, "Would YOU like a FREE cell phone today?" I replied that there is no such thing as a free cell phone. Suddenly flustered by the unexpected response, he blurted, "Are you calling me a LIAR?" Not at all, I replied. Simply hand me my free cell phone and I will be on my way. "B-but it's more complicated than that," he replied. "We don't just give people free cell phones." Well there you go, I said, and kept walking.

OfficeLinebacker

Aug 22 2009, 21:58

QUOTE (McGuire @ Aug 22 2009, 15:17)

I never accused the writer of lying. You are reading more into the article than is there.

You remind me of a young man at the shopping mall the other day. He leaped out at me from behind his kiosk, blocking my path, and yelped, "Would YOU like a FREE cell phone today?" I replied that there is no such thing as a free cell phone. Suddenly flustered by the unexpected response, he blurted, "Are you calling me a LIAR?" Not at all, I replied. Simply hand me my free cell phone and I will be on my way. "B-but it's more complicated than that," he replied. "We don't just give people free cell phones." Well there you go, I said, and kept walking.

LMAO. Nice one.

Tony Matthews

Aug 22 2009, 22:02

Perhaps the expression 'There is no such thing as a free lunch.' should be dragged into the 21st Century...

desmo

Aug 22 2009, 22:20

I think it's "There is no such thing as a free iPod".

Tony Matthews

Aug 22 2009, 22:22

QUOTE (desmo @ Aug 22 2009, 23:20)

I think it's "There is no such thing as a free iPod".

Damn! Are you sure? How very disappointing...

cheapracer

Aug 23 2009, 03:10

Tony Wallas is a liar.

There.

desmo

Aug 23 2009, 04:41

QUOTE

Tony Wallas is a liar.

There.

Thank you sir. At least you aren't doing the "He's obviously a liar, but I'm going to obfuscate the matter of saying so sufficiently that I can deny having said what I obviously meant to imply" tap dance.

cheapracer

Aug 23 2009, 05:08

QUOTE (desmo @ Aug 23 2009, 12:41)

Thank you sir. At least you aren't doing the "He's obviously a liar, but I'm going to obfuscate the matter of saying so sufficiently that I can deny having said what I obviously meant to imply" tap dance.

McGuire

Aug 23 2009, 10:40

QUOTE (Bill S @ Aug 23 2009, 12:34)

By the time they were testing V10 versions, they were only 5% more powerful than poppet valve versions.

If that were true it would surely be in the magazine article.

McGuire

Aug 23 2009, 10:42

QUOTE (desmo @ Aug 23 2009, 12:41)

Thank you sir. At least you aren't doing the "He's obviously a liar, but I'm going to obfuscate the matter of saying so sufficiently that I can deny having said what I obviously meant to imply" tap dance.

I haven't accused the writer of lying. You are reading things into the article that are not there. Whose fault is that?

gruntguru

Aug 23 2009, 23:08

QUOTE (McGuire @ Aug 23 2009, 05:17)

You remind me of a young man at the shopping mall the other day. He leaped out at me from behind his kiosk, blocking my path, and yelped, "Would YOU like a FREE cell phone today?" I replied that there is no such thing as a free cell phone. Suddenly flustered by the unexpected response, he blurted, "Are you calling me a LIAR?" Not at all, I replied. Simply hand me my free cell phone and I will be on my way. "B-but it's more complicated than that," he replied. "We don't just give people free cell phones." Well there you go, I said, and kept walking.

I will have to remember that one. it will come in handy one day.

gruntguru

Aug 23 2009, 23:10

QUOTE (cheapracer @ Aug 23 2009, 13:10)

Tony Wallas is a liar.

No relation to Tony Wallis I hope?

gruntguru

Aug 23 2009, 23:14

QUOTE (McGuire @ Aug 23 2009, 20:40)

If that were true it would surely be in the magazine article.

Why? That was obviously an Ilmor test. Wallis seems to have mostly quoted numbesrs from their own (Bishop) testing.

gruntguru

Aug 23 2009, 23:26

QUOTE (McGuire @ Aug 23 2009, 22:08)

LOL that hardly seems likely. Daimler AG has an enormous ownership stake in Bishop, nearly a third of the company I believe.

I hope we are not going where we currently seem to be headed, into conspiracy theories about suppressed inventions, dark forces, etc... evil automakers, greedy oil companies and all that. At that point I will have to give up on you lovable knuckleheads and you will be stuck arguing with yourselves.

I'm not fond of conspiracy theories.

I just know that many companies like to keep things under wraps - "no reason to persue this concept right now - but no reason to give the competition a leg-up either."

gruntguru

Aug 24 2009, 03:47

QUOTE (Wuzak @ Aug 24 2009, 12:59)

My point is that M-B/Ilmor spent £48m last year developing an engine subject to a design/development freeze. Sticking an unproven engine in a car to see how it went wouldn't be beyond them

Its very different to spend 48m on development you believe you will be allowed to use one day.

Putting the BRV engine in a car would be the very final step. Performance wise, they can learn everything they need to know on the dyno. No need to stick it in a car unless the car/engine package is ready to track-test/race since they already know the comparative performance.

Canuck

Aug 25 2009, 03:38

To add to that...
If aero is the place to funnel tanker-loads of money, there's probably not a lot to be gained by putting an engine that would require vastly different bodywork configuration to be optimized, in a chassis designed around an OHC engine. Now we're talking about developing both a chassis and an engine development for which there is no legal place to compete.

onelung

Sep 2 2009, 05:13

There's some light reading to be had here, chaps.... http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWE...taryvalveIC.htm

gruntguru

Sep 2 2009, 06:00

QUOTE (onelung @ Sep 2 2009, 15:13)

There's some light reading to be had here, chaps.... http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWE...taryvalveIC.htm

I think that site was linked in a previous post (probably in the Ilmor 5 stroke thread where this discussion started).

The Bishop rotary valve is a refinement of the Cross rotary valve from way back. The Bishop system of bearings and seals claims to have eliminated the original problems associated with the Cross valve.

onelung

Sep 2 2009, 07:55

Apologies - that website (museum of retrotech) happens to be one of my favoUrites - and within it, is this ( http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/POWE...trol/petrol.htm ) gem (but please, let's not spiral away from what this thread is about...)