Well, if only the first four interest you you're missing a lot of fun.....

I'd love that. There is a whole world worth of run-off in that area and they could even fit in a chincane of some sort right before the bridge.

The biggest myth on modern track design is that wider tracks = better racing.
Valencia is very much evidence of the opposite - the wideness, the excessive runoff - it makes for a race that is visually uninteresting as kills the sense of speed - the crowd and atmosphere is also compromised by this.

There is something spectacular about just watching the cars lapping at a place like Monaco, even when there's no racing going on..

I would leave Valencia as it is, not the tracks fault imho, was hoping the this seasons regs would make the race more exciting, well it was slightly more interesting than last year, but....... ROLL ON NEXT SEASON Rubens overtaking Kovy in the pits? hang on, did i say overtake? I mean "leapfrog" If the refuelling ban was this season, rubens would have been forced to make his move to claim victory, mind you, whole different ball game this no refuelling malarky.


back on topic its the areo's that spoils Valencia for us, whereas I tend to think in candbury's boost logic, anyway.. Valencia is a top notch circuit, miles better than silverstone, if any track should come in for fierce criticism its that one, bore bore bore fest so it is.

Next season hopefully we will have a European GP at Valencia that will keep us glued to our seats, rather than wishing that ITV still had the rights, last year I welcomed the Adverts

Valancia my kind of track shame the cars and the drivers, next year they will not have the luxury of playing leapfrog.. if they want it, they will have to go get it.. still miffed about rubens, would have more credit if he took the lead by overtaking on the track imho.

IMHO just space out the tyre compounds again. it worked brilliantly this year then they stopped it.

I think its a combination of cars and tracks more car though.

Steel Brakes like the 1970s??? wow... that would be quite dangerous but thrilling to watch!

Nice idea, but braking with brakes that are worse than the current ones on a (far) dustier part of the track is maybe not that attractive, probably even less attractive than the current option.

Well, Monaco is Monaco.... hahaha. However, Monaco in the wet is awesome to watch (1996-1997).

My philosphy entirely The race should start for 75 laps (say) and the driver then only enters the pits if he needs something, all this strategy stuff does not good racing make. I watched the start yesterday, but soon found other things to do, as there was no on track passing, and oh, it is such an awful track, and I thought that Long Beach and Las Vegas were bad, silly me

Indy cars still use steel brakes for road courses. The drivers cannot mash the brakes all day, or they will overheat and lose braking. Yet another driver skill removed by modern F1 technology.

Sonoma was a lot more interesting to watch than Valencia this year.

Why do people complain about Valencia, but not Monaco?

Yep I was in the Penske pit for most of the day and was really surprised at how well the brakes seemed to hold up for the drivers. I was also surprised at the tyre wear of lack thereof. There is certainly much which can be learned from Indy with regards the overall "experience" you get at an Indy race versus an F1 race...

Speaking of which....GOD DAMN Danica is small! never realised how small she truly is...

Going back to topic...the ability for a driver to be able to get a run on the car ahead by "challenging corner onto long straight into tight 90 degree turn or more" gives drivers the chance to get a better run of the hard corner, make the run onto the rear of another car down the straight and then the good old fashioned ... throw the car down the inside and hope it stops in time, to make the pass...so I still believe the track design has much to do with the passing opportunities...

Track layout: dull (few overtaking possibilities)
Location: dull (industrial harbour masquerading as Monaco)
Trackside views: dull (just a road and a big fence with a bridge that doesn't really look like a bridge)

Never mind, only 5 more years of it.

Not only is it a truly dull as ditchwater track, devoid of any real opportunities to pass, it's a real shame they managed to place it in the most hideous part of what is a genuinely beautiful and vibrant city. Really missed a trick there. From seeing it on TV you'd think it was Coventry on Sea, whereas in reality it's one of the most architecturally impressive cities in Europe!

if you 're a Calatrava fan

You said the same thing last year http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?show...t&p=3271624 Were you able to forward the suggestions to someone?

Hope they could improve the track. It would be nice if cars could brake right next to walls, hit an apex that is right next to walls, and then on exit drift towards a wall. I think thats what makes Monaco so interesting to watch even when there is no battle going on and your just watching a car lapping by itself.
In Valencia there are normal-track curbs before the walls, I wouldnt say it has necesserily to do with danger that the Monaco style design is more exciting, but its the great challenge of managing to get as close to the wall as possible, thats what makes St. Devote, Mirabeau, the tunnel, Tabak and Rascasse look so spectacular.

... because in 2007 the Ferraris and McLarens were miles better than the 5th place car in the field, every weekend.

With the competitive field we have this season with so many drivers in contention for podium finishes, this wouldn't be the case at Spa in 2009.

_________

As for Valencia, yeah, it's just a godawful track.

No elevation. No scenery. No interesting characteristics. No atmosphere. No passing zones. No challenge for the drivers.

Needs a *major* reprofiling for 2010 to avoid being a complete disaster without the intrigue of fuel situation.

What a shame we have to see this track for 5 more years. If we're going to have a 'European Grand Prix' it should be rotated between the best tracks in Europe that aren't regular venues (Brands, Imola, etc.).

So 1990 regulations with current reduced aerodynamics?

But that allows TC, LC, etc etc... is that such a good idea? Besides if you make the cars 20 cm wider... won't it more difficult to get one past another!!!!????

Also if you put tyre war spec tyres on they will have MUCH more mechanical grip than 1990 cars anyway!!!???

Yes no refuel and no tyre changes... put the racing on the track.

Of course, blocking needs to be banned apart from last 3 laps, and a NASCAR style (non) penalties for ordinary contacts and ordinary punting of other cars policy would still spice up the racing. Trulli or Hamilton train? Nah, not after Kubica or Nakajima nudges Trulli or Hamilton into the fence for holding 'em up!

The track is so wide that it makes all corners fast and flowing with only one usable racing line. There seems to be no real braking at all, just slowing down a bit and cruising through wide corners. No challenge, no errors, no overtaking.

Even the "hairpin" is so wide that the corner radius of the racing line is enormous. Not really a hairpin at all.

The track is too easy.

Agreed.

Speedcar didn't have much passing and unless the track allowed slipstreaming and a wide rubber line. Despite monumental braking distances there where parades just like in F1.

We had that in Speedcar ad it didn't stoped it from having parade races, ditto for World Superbikes.

Single file racing is boring racing no matter what.

So some of the cares are in multiple classes?

Open the swing bridge a couple of times. That'll make for some overtaking.

WSBK? I've always found WSBK to be more entertaining than MotoGP, which, in recent years, is more often a borefest than a good race. Stuff like Catalunya this year is a rarity. An example would be to compare the MotoGP and WSBK races at Brno. WSBK was entertaining, MotoGP was bloody dreadful. And it'll only get worse with the cost-cutting measures next year.

As for Valencia, I'm more inclined to believe the engine formula is to blame for F1's struggles with overtaking. Look at a race like Hungary 1989 and you saw many overtakes, despite Hungary being a shitty circuit. Why? The engines were all very different in terms of configuration and power output. Unfortunately until something is done about the current F1 regs, we won't see that much more overtaking, regardless of the circuit.



True, but it was still boring for most of the race. Conway's charge was entertaining though.

Last year I said I may have a chance...I did have some sort of, as I mentioned in the last part my yesterday's post (the wall painting stuff). This year I'll have a strong shot of passing it to the right people, and Im already making some movements to get some relevant people involved as well.

Plus, the fact that Comunitat Valenciana entering as cosponsor and fee payer, for certain reasons, makes life much easier for me.

Of course dont expect miracles, and that they will do all what we tell them, but certainly they'll hear it this time.

Speedcar was the opposite from parade races, close racing all over the track, banging, rubbing, going side by side threw several corners etc.

problem is you cant tell what bit of the track is what, as they painted all the walls blue, you just know the car is in some fast sweepers. must be a hard track to learn as it all looks the freakin same. they need to paint the walls in different colours for each sector or section.

the cars need to get really close to the walls. a big challege would be to have the apex of the corner as the wall. no (or tiny) kerb

I said it in the practice session and I'll say it again. It's a (very) poor mans Montreal. Of course the circuit Gilles Villeneuve is old-school - narrow, walls close to the track just like Spa, Suzuka and dare I say it Imola. Any error is punished like it should be. None of this empty carpark space that ruins the difficulty of the new breed of circuits.

Just my two cents.

Maybe they could just paint big numbers in the walls every 100 meters: 1,2,3,...,52,53,54. Then it would be easy to know all the time where the cars are.

I agree the cost cutting measures will make Moto GP worse, just like it happened in F1.
But WS also had shitty races at Miller and such.
Single file racing is single file racing, no matter what type of racing machine you throw at it.







Engines weren't the only thing different. Chassis where also more different and some teams had carbon-carbon brakes while other didn't.
So you had straight line differences, brake distance differences and cornering speed differences.

Close spec/semi-spec cars are horrible for road course and street circuits, hence stuff like push to pass, optional tires and the front wing.
As ChampCar showed P2P needs ~100 hp or so to be effective on most/many circuits, and IMO you'd also need a push-to-outbrake system, and I'd even say an active slipstream-ing system.

nah I think just painting the walls in the different sectors the same color they're shown on the track map in the broadcast is fine. If anything it would be really cool and innovative.

Won't help the racing though. You gotta do something about that. Wider in the corners, more hairpins. More elevation change if at all possible. I saw some roads disappearing into a tunnel on the shot next to the actual track. How about it?

Still surprised you haven't hopped off to stare at the M25 yet.

Because the cars will be near each other instead of being passed while in the pits, or on opposite sides of the track for half the race....?

I'm afraid wider corners would just make it worse. There is only one usable racing line in the middle of the dust anyway, so a wider corner would just be faster and make it even more impossible to overtake.

How about some more adhesive tarmac, grinding or something, in the inside line of corner entries? It would make it possible to dive into a corner inside line and still brake enough to make the corner and overtake.

I suggested last year that the chicanes be "color coded" per section, different sections of the track have a different color theme.

From a *track* perspective, the new speed bumps on the bypass area of the chicane is identifiable (and apparently effective).

The S-nature of the last turn complex somehow doesn't show up on tv very well. Which I think is a major shame, because it seems to be a pretty challenging section.

I think this is because (going by memory - which is indicative) the walls visually make the depth of field appear to be "flat" when looking through that section (camera-ground level).

In other words, the angle of the walls, and their color (blue) "fight" against the angle of the corners. Until you see the cars go through that complex, it almost looks like you can go straight through it without any turns.

This is in contrast with the entrance to the Swimming Pool complex at Monaco, which I think is similar in layout but works better visually, perhaps because of the angles/color of the surrounding walls.

I am saying that effectively they are at different times, because they're configured radically different. It's the same as running a race with different classes of cars, those that run hard tires as opposed to soft, light fuel/heavy. Watching a race where a light car passes a car on a heavy strategy, or option over a prime compound tire is not the same as a 1:1 car setup.

Not only that, but watching two cars "race" that have taken two completely different strategies is of course completely dull to *see*.

I suggested that in a separate thread awhile ago. One could make different lines possible in a corner by:

Different surface treatments on the traditional racing line versus outside: resin, grinding along the radius, concrete;
Reward a different exit line with more grip, make the inside of the exit slick;
Make the inside of the entry to a corner slick, outside grippier;
Camber the exit of the inside of the apex;
Make a "Mirabeau Bump/Rise" on the approach to a corner.

Math can be used to figure out how to optimize these things to make more than one line possible/competitive through a corner.

In my original post, I was comparing F1 to motocross: motocross is so exciting because there are multiple competitive lines through a corner.


F1 could be the same way, if some creative thought were applied to the track surface. Part of the allure to street circuits IMO is the non-linear nature of the surface itself, as opposed to a perfect A1-ring textbook surface. The added complexity yields a more chaotic outcome.

Why don't they just throw a "competition caution" every twenty laps and have the jet trucks come through and blow off the entire racing surface?

I'd rather see sprinklers watering the track every twenty laps.

Maybe it is that the tracks are too good nowadays. A genuine street track with crap old tarmac would make much more interesting racing.

Varying levels of grip in different parts of corners could be a way to go. Making more than one racing line possible.

You don't grasp the point that close cars = no passing.

cant be any surprise surely

looked a fussy track from the outset and a classic example of why f1 has little place on street circuits.

in view of safety speeds are held back by nonesense chicanes. rel fast for a street circuit but with the modern cars was never going to be overtaking. for all his criticism at least tilke manages to introduce 1 overtaking spot though god knows we need any more tight turn back corners. only good feature was the overhead of the cars going beside the canal after the swing bridge.

same could be said for singapore and the worst offender monaco though it does have history on its side.

also what's wrong with bernie running the show in that he would rather the show go where he is paid more than a good track with some atmosphere. did anyone else notice the thousands sitting on the beach not going to a gp right next door with their spanish hero driving?

sadly the sport getting further and further away from a direction it should be going and needs a fresh re think not possible with its current leadership.

For how long do they plan to race there?

TBF it wasn't as boring as it could've been thanks to Webber's testflight and Koba's last couple of laps - but there were some very fast cars being held up by some fairly slow ones for a looooong time.

I suppose its at least a 5 year contract - maybe 10?