While this whole Badoer thing (and I guess to a lesser extent, Alguersuari and Grosjean) has been going on, the idea came up to me about his unfamiliarity with the track in Valencia--why not enter him in the GP2 race? Heck, let him run around in a Porsche Supercup car!

I know back in the day the F1 drivers did it more often. I think these days it's mostly a safety issue.

In NASCAR there are about 5-15 drivers each weekend who compete in the lesser series. Doesn't seem to hurt them.

As we can see with Grosjean and Alguersuari, since they've RACED recently, their learning curve wasn't so bad. But for Badoer, I would think it'd be good for him to enter any and every race possible with a four-wheeled vehicle between now and Spa.

It would help with everything from getting used to procedures like pit road speeds and commitment lines to sharing the track with a multitude of other competitors to learning how to push harder.

I think most people agree that the issue with Badoer is his lack of real race experience. Luckily, that's fairly simple to solve. The question is, why don't Ferrari work with him to solve the problem?

Makes sense - had Badoer done some actual racing in the last few years besides testing for Ferrari he would not have embarrassed himself today. He could have done A1Gp or Superleague etc..

I dont think it had anything to do with Racing per say...

He had to learn the circuit...

Learn the car....as he really has not done much in the F60 and the F60 today is very different animal than the one that started the season...SPA will be the real test and I think Ferrari know this, which is why I think they will see how he does and then decide whether to replace him or not...

He knows the Spa circuit and he reduced his times by the end of Valencia to just over a second of Kimi, he will be a lot more competitive in Belgium, but who knows....maybe he just wont be quick enough versus other available drivers...

Only Spa will tell.

How many times had Alguersuari and Grosjean seen this circuit?

Grosjean drove it last year in GP2

Algersuari drove it last year in F3

Badoer removed himself from the racing scene a long time ago. If he wanted to race there has not been any real obstacle to him competeing other than he simple does not really want to.

Ah I see, obviously Grosjean and Alguersuari had a lot more testing with the current car. That explains averything...!

Come on... Your talking about a ferrari testdriver for almost a decade, I doubt there is hardly anyone out there (not even Rubens and Fisi) that have done as much mileage in an F1 car as Badoer. No, not the F60, but F1 nonetheless. At least he's used to the speed and G-forces, whereas to Grosjean and Alguersuari everything is new. Badoer didn't have to be up there with Kimi, but there is no excuse for this kind of performance!

it's a delicate issue...other OW series are used to test and raise young guys, badoer is not a young driver..
the problem is the current rule system
test driver means nothing these days. in the last 2-3 years badoer hardly ever drove the car. he may have a lot of f1 mileage in the past, but in recent times he didn't ome very often close to a car.
as he doesn't have the age to race in another ow series it's pretty much a dead end for him.

jaime though did a pretty poor job yesterday and saturday..he wasn't that close to the "experienced" buemi

I would like to see the return of an F1 winter series.

In my perfect world an entrant would be able to buy or lease a car from another manufactuer.

Would give lots of guys the chance to race during the F1 off season.

Kind of like an F1 version of GP2 Asia.

Actually, IMHO, it has a lot to do with racing or rather lack of racing.

The role and forte of a test driver is the ability to bang in lap after lap of consistent times. An erratic (whether this is due to traffic on the circuit or not) driver is of no use to the engineers who have to assimilate the data collected from those laps.

Again, IMHO, it is precisely the lack of racing and being involved with others on the circuit which has let him down.

A test driver usually has the circuit to himself and also does not have to contend with the niceties of fixed speed in the pit lane and so forth.

That may be the case when running around Ferrari's test track, but is not the case at the majority of tests where many teams normally attend and rules apply.

Shucks, my bad. I thought the discussion was about a Ferrari test driver.....

Are you saying Ferrari's test drivers don't use any of the other venues?

Sponsors? I think it 'd be hard to arrange for the same sponsors in different series, and a driver with I don't know one company's badges one day and a competing company's the next would probably not be the best thing would it?

Are you saying that you have never heard of 'generalisations'. Stop being so touchy.

It's clear Ferrari test drivers are not prohibited from racing in other series - Marc Gene races le Mans - so not racing competitively is a choice Badoer has made. One has to question whether he would even have been interested in other OW series anyway.

More generally though, I think the question for race drivers could probably be answered by the words 'contractual obligations' and the fact that they spend so much time testing and doing sponsorship work there just may not be the time available to do other stuff.

It's clear that Kimi is champing at the bit to race elsewhere all the time but even so he only gets a few occasional goes in a rally car and a snowmobile when he's not otherwise engaged.

only superleague formula and a1gp are the only open wheel formula i can think of where you might not have to bring in money... would be better to moonlight in sportscars imo

Alguersuari: F3
Grosjean: GP2

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but they seem to manage it in NASCAR.

the sums are completely different though ... a big telco/bank/whatever might be paying an F1 team around 100m/year, that's a pretty huge investment to risk having your driver appear with a competing telco/bank/whatever logo ... and at 1/1000th of the cost. I know it's an extreme example but take for example I dunno say a McLaren driver with Vodafone money doing a GP2 race in a Wind or Orange or whatever sponsored car ... Vodafone spent 100m other telco spent 1m they both get the same guy with their logos. NASCAR money is nowhere near those levels.

Used to at F1 level.Just looking at Stirling Moss' record.In his last full season 1961-he contested 56 races-only 8 WCGPs but non-champ F1, Intercontinenta,F.Libre(Tasman)sportscars,touring cars!

There's a lot more in common between the COT and a Truck than there is between an F1 car and a GP2 car. Plus you're usually doing F1 stuff while GP2 is on track.

And fundamentally there's no reason or desire to.

They do? When do they take their sponsors to different series?


and Nationwide doesn't count.

So I can't use a NASCAR:Nationwide scenario as a parallel to F1:GP2?

lol

They don't take their sponsors. They race for different sponsorts.

Like Kyle Busch is sponsored by M&Ms and Combos and stuff in Cup. NOS Energy drink in Nationwide, and Z-Line designs in Trucks. Trucks is a separate team.

Newman races for the Army in Cup and Fastenal (different team) in Nationwide.

Bowyer, Wimmer, and Burton all share the #29 Holiday Inn Nationwide ride.

Sometimes they wear the same firesuit as Cup, they don't get a special one done up just for a limited run in a lesser series, so to a certain extent, they bring their sponsors with them to other series.

That's a big key I presume. I know Cup drivers have been late to qualifying for example because they were in the Nationwide drivers' meeting and stuff.

What good would it do a driver to race in GP2

Not hard to sponsor different bouts at a WWF Wrestlemania event...

And even in NASCAR you have rookies skipping Trucks + NW because the COT is so different. Some of those rookies have much less experience of racing "stock cars" on ovals in comparison to Badoer´s experience with open-wheelers & road courses. They simply don´t think Trucks or NW cars are close enough in terms of setups, etc.

Racing is much more specialized today than it used to be, I guess.

The reason is that modern F1 drivers contracts are very restrictive on other activities where a driver may injured.
You don't want to invest $500M behind a program only to have a driver get a dumb injury in an unrelated event late in the season, and lose a championship.

Most contracts don't allow risky behaviour during the season. Montoya got an injury riding a motocross bike that cost him F1 races (he lied about it).

Maybe if they were not in a good team in F1 and end up getting overlooked, they would get a chance to shine elsewhere.

The main point would be to learn racecraft, learn the track, learn the procedures.

Another thing might be as Phucaigh said, an outlet for a driver where he can be more competitive.

This...


Forget GP2...

GP2 cars are cheap, yes. Thus a business should set up a new series, also cheap cars but faster specs.


400,000 EUR cars with venturi tunnels, huge wings, wide track cars & 4 L turbocharged engines with 1000 hp.... These (spec) cars to lap 2-3 seconds faster than F1. Racing to be dirt cheap and widely publicised in comparison.


There you go, not GP2 not for junior reputations.... no a viable, fast spectacular, widely televised, extremely cheap series where professional drivers can make money and sponsors can be involved for 10% cost of F1



Another place for European OW pilots to race.... GP2 is for junior drivers after all, going back and winning again did not help Pantano!


All the great pilots that could race in the fast, cheap series: Wurz, Klien, Sato, Davidson, Bourdais, Piquet, Senna, Liuzzi, Gene, Hulkenberg, Doornbos, Verstappen, Kerr, Pantano, Karthikayaen, Jani, Carroll, van der Garde, Paffet, Parente, de la Rosa etc etc etc etc

Jos the Boss behind the wheel of a cheap 1,000 HP car? There's a recipe for spectacular shunts!

BTW with all the arguments being presented, the title of this thread really should have been "Why didn't/doesn't Badoer compete in other OW series at the weekend?"

Not sure what other support events happened at Valencia this weekend, but I believe there is a rule in F1 that states a driver cannot compete in any other race within the previous 24 hours of a Grand Prix.

I dont doubt he was a little rusty on his racecraft...however, it is the very reason that you point out that goes against most peoples argument that he is not suitable as a replacement driver.

A test driver is just as important to a team as the main drivers. He has to be of a similar standard and within a similar speed capability to make any work done on the car and with him worthwhile. Luca can peddle an F1 car just shy of Kimi and Massa and I suspect..... (could be wrong) that we will see a much more competent performance from him in Spa.

The fact is, A LOT has changed on that Ferrari since he last drove it. Almost to the extent that it probably feels like a completely different car now, that will have taken a while to get used to and my the end of the race, you saw a pace which was more fitting and what you would expect.

Spa is his real test, if he cannot get good points in Spa, then I have no doubt, someone else will be driving for the rest of the year...

My primary point waslearning the circuit combined with a car that probably handles very differently to the F60 he drove before the start of the season...

I actually also posted elsewhere that his performance was disappointing, I am just looking at this trying to work out why, he was so much off the pace. Spa will be the key..

As to the other youngsters....Luca is 38...it may take him a little longer to get back into the saddle than JA or RG can adapt from GP2..

Really, that's very interesting.

Maybe I shouldn't say anything because I'm not really sure and I'm relying on memory (which is not always a good idea)...

But I seem to recall that that rule was introduced a long time ago - something having to do with Fangio crashing at a non-Championship F1 race and breaking his neck causing him to miss the 1952 season. This after he had driven a long distance to the event after competing in another race. (I say "F1", but they ran to F2 rules that year - and 1953).

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong...

From Mike Lang's book Grand Prix!, Mario Andretti and Bobby Unser were disqualified from the 1968 Italian GP at Monza because they raced in a USAC race the day before the GP. They tried to do some good enough times on Friday to qualify knowing they would be back in the US to race on Saturday, then come back to race in the GP, but the organizers wouldn't let them because of that rule.

Now, I'm not sure if this 24-hour rule is still in effect or if it's simply in the driver's contracts that they can't do that.

How about a spec series run after Q3 for test drivers (and others)?
The cars could carry team livery, which is good for sponsors.
It would be a showcase for test drivers, and up and coming talents, and keep them race fit, and up to date with current tracks.
After quali the test drivers wouldn't be able to step in to the F1 race anyway, and it'd be some more racing for the fans in the stands.
A spec series wouldn't be too expensive, comparatively, and it would be an interesting comparisson between test drivers to show their abilities.

Also, let´s leep in mind how physically challenging modern F1 cars are. Before the Valencia GP Ferrari people were really worried if Badoer would survive the race distance. Another tough race the previous day sounds like bad idea for sobeody who isn´t quite in shape to begin with.

Jamie Alguersuari is still racing in WSR and on his first race back he won. Before that he hadn't done much in WSR mainly just finishing in the top 10.

Red Bull quite like their young drivers to drive in as many series as possible and move them aroud quite a lot as they think the more they drive the better it is for them so will have them doing all sorts one week to the next which i think is a good idea.

I suppose teams are worried about their drivers getting injured and the contractual problem but for some teams that have links with other series I can't see why they can't race in between GP's for thir sister teams.

Because F1 drivers are pussies (except for Kimi who has the balls to roll over a rally car 3 times in Finnish forest)

That's not to be entirely discounted.

However per weekend, there's FP1-3, Quali, AND race, and I don't think that the amount of running in the other sessions is decided by driver fitness/fatigue. I don't think doing a GP2 weekend would up the workload to the point where the driver is too tired. The races are shorter and the performance is much lower.

GP2 is there for younger up and coming drivers to race.

The nationwide series takes place at least a couple of hours apart from Sprint Cup races, GP2 stuff happens sometimes straight after F1 sessions have finished.

The main reason would be that most of them have it written into their contracts that they cannot do other series.

You should also probably be asking why Indycar drivers don't do other series in season?

Not really. There is sometimes only a five or ten minute break between Cup qualifying and Nationwide practice, or vice versa.

When you are funneling half of your entire years budget through one guy, you can't afford for anything to go wrong. So, you veto him going off to race in series X.

I think from the driver standpoint it's also a bit of an elitist thing. If you're on the A grade cricket team why risk batting for the B's and getting out for a duck? Some of them simply aren't interested, or would rather pour 100% of their focus into F1 and then race other series once their careers are over.

If I was racing in F1 I'd limit myself to a shot at Lemans and the 500 every year.

Well, broken record time for me!

That's what I love about NASCAR. The drivers aren't "too good" to drive anything. They drive Nationwide, Trucks, Modifieds, Supermodifieds, Late Models, etc.

Tony Stewart owns a couple race tracks and gets out on them whenever possible. Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman, Kyle Busch, Matt Kenseth, Clint Bowyer, etc all will jump in just about anything with four wheels that has a competitive chance to win. Dirt, asphalt, concrete, doesn't matter.

Heck even Juan Pablo got talked into doing the charity dirt race T-Stew holds every year.

It's like all of NASCAR is made up of Kimi Raikkonens in terms of their basic desire to have fun while going fast in different categories of racing.

That all said, I understand that in the rarefied air of Formula One, it's just not as practical to do. These guys don't mow their own lawns or work on their own cars.

There are also extremely successful NASCAR drivers that don't dabble much in "lesser" series, like Jeff Gordon and Jimmie Johnson. So it works both ways.

They do race in other series you just don't hear about it much. Kubica, Alguersuari, and maybe Buemi are competing in the KZ1 World Cup after Spa for example.

Motorsport is very very expensive so it's very difficult for a driver to migrate to different series as well.

Neither do most NASCAR guys. They know how to play that "good ole boy from average neighbourhood" card, but apart from not having to travel around the world (making it difficult to mow your own lawn every week), they aren´t that far from F1 folks. Their mansions are closer to Neverland than some average house on the Main Street.

Next I´ll have to explain they don´t wear sunglasses in night races or sip that soft drink to be "real"