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dgduris
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Sep 23 2009, 15:20) *
No I don't think that's right. Mercedes has said McLaren won't let them, Ferrari would require approval from the FIA and other teams, the Toyota is rubbish, the Cosworth unproven and Renault are playing hard to get. Of course you're right that they are not 'forced' to use Cosworth engines but they clearly will have trouble getting the best powerplants so I don't see how it diminishes my point in any way.

Williams has spent the money and the rules allow KERS. That's an edge they've already paid for and that they are likely to need next year.


Based on what you have written here, you assertion that William's is a Hobson's Choice is tacitly untrue as they may choose - at least - between the Toyota and the Cosworth unit.

I am not sure how much stick McLaren have in the engine issue at this point. Frank was probably hoping to be able to work towards becoming the Merc "factory" team. Ross has certainly done in that possibility - it seems.

I hope Renault will change their minds - as they have told the FIA they are staying in. There certainly are worse chassis they could be in than a Williams. Of course, there may also be an issue with Williams fitting that flywheel gizmo of theirs to any but the Toyo or Cosworth engine. This will be interesting to watch unfold.

Now, given the agreement to abandon KERS among the teams (as brilliant as inventing it - or just a repudiation of it's main proponent, "Spanky"), why would Williams re-join FOTA and immediately set themselves against the group. Unless Frank is going to get back at all of them to avenge Max. cool.gif
Buttoneer
QUOTE (dgduris @ Sep 23 2009, 12:29) *
Based on what you have written here, you assertion that William's is a Hobson's Choice is tacitly untrue as they may choose - at least - between the Toyota and the Cosworth unit.

Yes I have accepted that this is wrong, but I maintain that it is irrelevant considering the poor options available to SFW.
MaxFan1
All this gentlement lovey dovey agreements are making me sick. F1 is about extracting the most performance out from the regulations. Good on Williams for doing it.
wewantourdarbyback
Were Williams even in FOTA when the agreement was made?
Sakae
QUOTE (rodlamas @ Sep 22 2009, 21:25) *
I really think that whenever we get to see the engine speczation stuff and that BMW, Renault and Toyota will be allowed to catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari...

Then what shall we see?

Both of them will put KERS on their cars for 2010, which is even bigger advantage for 2010 with the increased weight os the cars, with all the fuel onboard at the start of the races and with the narrower front tires.

If I am not mistaken, it's not that Renault will be allowed to catch up with Mercedes, it's more like Mercedes will have to detune their engine to Renault's level.

Here is another brilliant idea conceived by FIA, and fully endorsed by Mr. Mosley: Screw the success!
Clatter
QUOTE (MiPe @ Sep 23 2009, 13:07) *
If I am not mistaken, it's not that Renault will be allowed to catch up with Mercedes, it's more like Mercedes will have to detune their engine to Renault's level.

Here is another brilliant idea conceived by FIA, and fully endorsed by Mr. Mosley: Screw the success!


Lets wait and see what actually happens. It could be that if they dyno the engines they find next to no difference, and the advantage comes in it's actual driveability. Can't see how they could realistically tune that out.
pgj
Hasn't Mecachrome moved its F1 engine production to Canada?
MikeTekRacing
QUOTE (thiscocks @ Sep 23 2009, 13:05) *
Williams have every right to use KERS if it is still in the rules. End of.

that;s perfect
every other team can continue the spending race, in the rules to make the small ones go bankrupt.
end of (williams)
Demo.
QUOTE (Dragonfly @ Sep 23 2009, 00:22) *
IIRC Williams were never excluded but rather had their membership temporarily suspended. And I am not sure whose intiative it was restoring their full membership.
But it is strange that a team who always moan about being a small one and not having enough money, who happily accepted the budged cap and the idea of a two tier championship, to announce they're planning to use KERS while the bigger teams have decided not to for the sake of cost cutting.



The big teams have not decided to not use KERs to cut costs.
I would not put it past Ferrari to decide to get FOTA to agree to not using it only to see Ferrari turn up on the start line next year with a full kers package saying well its not against the rules is it.

Much more likey is the fact that the like of Ferrari and Maclaren realise that Williams have a product that is better and could well be sold to other teams much like an engine and they dont want that.
For the FOTA fan boys to try to say FOTA want to do it to cut costs is a joke.
If Fota are so wanting to cut costs why are they wanting 3rd cars or do you think somehow that cuts costs stoned.gif stoned.gif
Dragonfly
@Demo
While I am not like you to start a childish name calling (which is BTW typical to [anti FOTA] fanboys), the last line of your post reminded me about something I felt I was missing.
I read in another place that Williams (Head?) has said they might agree with the third car idea.
And if you were not so selective in your reading, you might have noticed in another post of mine, that there is a possibility that Williams are using KERS as a bargaining issue. Third car seems to me the missing counter issue.
pgj
Did McLaren develop theirs or did they buy it in 'kit' form and assemble it?
FonzCam
QUOTE (pgj @ Sep 23 2009, 15:45) *
Did McLaren develop theirs or did they buy it in 'kit' form and assemble it?

Neither, Mercedes HPE got Zytek to design it.
http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=405
pgj
QUOTE (FonzCam @ Sep 23 2009, 16:36) *
Neither, Mercedes HPE got Zytek to design it.
http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=405


Thank you. up.gif
FonzCam
QUOTE (pgj @ Sep 23 2009, 16:39) *
Thank you. up.gif

No problem.

Interestingly this means Mercedes could easily include KERS with their engines since it's not a McLaren Technology.

And since the Renault and Ferrari (and I believe the proposed Toyota) systems are supplied by Magneti Marelli there are actually only a handful of suppliers which is why I think Williams (and previously BMW) have such a desire to not drop KERS, the other teams all contracted other companies (Honda went to Flybrid IIRC) to create a system Williams went and bought a company to create a system.

highdownforce
QUOTE (Dragonfly @ Sep 23 2009, 11:44) *
I read in another place that Williams (Head?) has said they might agree with the third car idea.


Third cars possible for young drivers - Head(Motorsport.com)
Dragonfly
Thanks!

QUOTE
"If somebody was running Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen and Michael Schumacher - for instance - I'm not sure that would be ideal."

Well maybe in the eyes of P. Head it is not ideal but I'm not sure about the fans and the public in general. They could offer third driver rotation and eventually have a star driver in one of their cars.
smile.gif
cadwal
QUOTE (FonzCam @ Sep 23 2009, 17:36) *
Neither, Mercedes HPE got Zytek to design it.
http://www.zytekgroup.co.uk/Default.aspx?tid=405


Not entirely according to that article. Zytek did the motor and the power electronics (actual controls has to be the standard ECU, doesn't it?) but somebody else did batteries and other unspecified parts. That is a 'kit' of some sort smile.gif

Does anyone remember an article with pictures of the McLaren KERS parts? It had all the parts laid out for comparison, but I can't find it now.



Ruud de la Rosa
QUOTE (cadwal @ Sep 23 2009, 20:40) *
Not entirely according to that article. Zytek did the motor and the power electronics (actual controls has to be the standard ECU, doesn't it?) but somebody else did batteries and other unspecified parts. That is a 'kit' of some sort smile.gif

Does anyone remember an article with pictures of the McLaren KERS parts? It had all the parts laid out for comparison, but I can't find it now.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4_Nmr2Hmwc this?
ForeverF1
QUOTE (cadwal @ Sep 23 2009, 19:40) *
Not entirely according to that article. Zytek did the motor and the power electronics (actual controls has to be the standard ECU, doesn't it?) but somebody else did batteries and other unspecified parts. That is a 'kit' of some sort smile.gif

Does anyone remember an article with pictures of the McLaren KERS parts? It had all the parts laid out for comparison, but I can't find it now.


Geeze, talk about nitpicking, OK, Duracell for the batteries, OKE for the copper in the wire covered by ICI plastics, where shall we stop?

Oh!, wait, Durex for the protection..... blush.gif
pgj
QUOTE (Ruud de la Rosa @ Sep 23 2009, 19:59) *


up.gif

My German is not up to understanding what they were saying but it was very interesting to see a complete KERS system.

Just a footnote to the engine discussion that went on a few posts ago. I was reading through the WMSC Hearing documents for Crashgate and came across a testimonial written on behalf of Renault by SFW.
highdownforce
QUOTE
Q. (Dan Knutson – National Speed Sport News) A question to all four of you: given that FOTA is all about unity and co-operation, given that some elements in this paddock would like nothing better than to divide and conquer, what do you guys think about Williams going against the grain and running KERS next year?

Sam Michael: One thing to be clear on: Williams have always said that we supported KERS, the concept of it, the ability to help Formula 1 with sustainability and the environment. We haven't stopped the development of KERS and we never did do that, just like the other teams didn't. I think at the moment we are discussing with FOTA the potential for an agreement not to run KERS next year. We are in the middle of that, in terms of days, so it would be wrong for us to come out and say that we are going to race KERS next year. In fact we never said that. In any statements, if you read carefully what we said was... at no point did we say we were going to race KERS, we just said we would continue developing it. I think if you ask most of the people who have KERS, they're doing the same thing. So it's quite different to say that we're going against the grain of FOTA. We are in FOTA, we've only had one meeting in FOTA since we rejoined, so that is in the middle of process at the moment. I think it's wrong to say that Williams are going against the grain of FOTA, especially at this time when we are talking to FOTA about exactly this point.

Friday's press conference - Singapore
J. Edlund
QUOTE (Ruud de la Rosa @ Sep 23 2009, 13:06) *
wasn't williams' idea to place the generator behind the gear box? or did they abandon that idea and place it between the driver and the engine?
Kers headers? I assume that is the bit of the crank shaft that connects to the kers? is it something that is bolted on to the shaft? does it form 1 part with the shaft? Is a engine manufacturer allowed to change this part/ does it fall under the restrictions? is it possible for a team like williams to make a new crankshaft? Is it allowed in the rules?
a lot of questions, sorry.


On the crankshaft there is a gear which is connected to a gear on the KERS motor.

There can be small differences between the engines intended for different cars.
TimEaston
I think KERS could spice up the racing as long as everyone has it.
Clatter
QUOTE (TimEaston @ Sep 26 2009, 20:53) *
I think KERS could spice up the racing as long as everyone has it.


I think the exact opposite.
pgj
QUOTE (Dragonfly @ Sep 23 2009, 10:15) *
In fact, I also tend to think Williams are using KERS as a bargaining chip for somethin else they want.



I agree. Jackie Stewart said the same thing too.
Tomecek
I managed to obtain information, that Williams agreed not to use KERS next season, as did all FOTA teams.

But it will remain in regulations even after 2010.
CaptnMark
QUOTE (Tomecek @ Sep 28 2009, 15:30) *
I managed to obtain information, that Williams agreed not to use KERS next season, as did all FOTA teams.

Sad. Please no one mention F1 and high tech together again.
David1976
I hope they do use KERS, and the other teams do as well.

It can provide massive overtaking opportunities if they increase the output a bit. There should also be some sort of ruling to stop teams from just using KERS to save fuel by manipulating the consumption over a lap.



Spa95
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...am-1418422.html

All FOTA teams agreed to not use KERS in 2010. The option remains in the rules to use it in 2011.
Henri Greuter
Since it was mentioned that Williams was maybe wanting to trade something and using the possible use of KERS as a tool to trade,

Yesterday on Dutch TV the commentator said that Williams was entirely against the participation of 14th team in F1 (what is now BMW Sauber) since the new invsestors of Sauber are unknown and thus their credibility can't be judged.

Maybe one of the things Frank wants to talk about?

Henri
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