Williams are Max's Troyan horse in FOTA.
But FOTA showed they are not worth the mass fan support, so I couldn't care less for them.
Max is entertaining himself with selective shooting of rare game species.

Williams approached MB but were turned down. It is rumoured there is a Renault deal in the pipeline if Renault France stay in F1.

Which rule would Williams be breaking?

I'm not sure how that makes any difference considering how poor the Toyota engines are. Monza made that abundantly clear.

Most?

Mac and Ferrari are the only teams that have regulary run KERS and I've not seen any evidence to suggest they are having any issues charging the batteries.

Basically their way of saying it's going to take them over a year to perfect their system.All set to drop KERS,and now this..

KERS is in the regulations for 2010.

the only track any teams had any problems with as regards recharging the KERs was silverstone, no other track.
some of that is down to the limit on how quickly you are allowed by the rules to recharge the system
as the rules state maximum charge and discharge rates that are the same.
So in effect a rule change would allow the teams to get round that problem on the one track it was a problem at this year.

Although I thought the rest of the teams had an agreement to drop it? I won't even talk about the 'spirit' of the agreement over regulations that was bandied about during the diffuser controversy,but this surely not in the spirit of fairplay..

Williams is always against everything. Lame.

There are some problems in circuits like Monza where you have short braking bursts that out-torque the KERS motor but beyond that, yeah, I haven't heard of people having problems charging KERS either.

Williams were not a FOTA member when they voted to drop KERS.

If I had a race team and we had invested money in developing a system that now appears to offer an advantage and that system was allowed by the regulations of the series, then I'd want to use it. If a recently-formed union that hasn't been all that convincingly stable and has just lost one of it's founding members (Flavio) had some sort of gentleman's agreement about abandoning the technology for the upcoming season, I'm not so sure I'd place all my trust in that.

Mario Thiessen said something in the line of charging kers at monza will be difficult. At silverstone this was also one of the reasons not to run it if I remember correctly
http://f1update.com/details/view/310240/Ha...at_Silverstone/
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78469

With respect, you say that you won't mention spirit and then mention it.

Williams did nothing wrong with the diffuser and is doing nothing wrong with KERS. Is every team to be a FOTA member when there is agreement but be an ex-member when they disagree with FOTA. This is not a very grown up way of running a democracy. Or have I missed something with FOTA? It is a democracy - right?

Williams were kicked out of FOTA because they signed up for Max's cheap F1.
After that FOTA voted that none of their members will use KERS next year as a cost cutting method.
Now Williams rejoin FOTA but they say that they will run KERS in 2010.

So why did Williams bother to enter FOTA again when they knew that they had a different agenda than FOTA?

Williams did nothing wrong,of course-every team has its own interests at heart-but it's bad form to play spoilsport all the time. (Ferrari were accused of this for years and years) They have only recently been let back into the FOTA-can they not come to an agreement with the others,for a change? At least pretend like they wish to preserve what little unity is left in Formula One?

I don't think this will lead to a knee-jerk reaction and Williams being kicked out of FOTA, that would be shabby. Although with Briatore gone and BMW's future in doubt, it does seem as though Williams are taking advantage,somewhat.

FOTA has no right to form an agenda on KERS. Why did FOTA invite Williams into back when it knew that Williams was opposed to KERS. It was opposed to a KERS ban when the GPMA proposed the ban before FOTA was formed. Williams has not changed its position.

yeah, that's what I said ... thought Dr Mario's "there are not enough hard braking corners" explanation is kinda wrong. The actualy problem is almost the opposite, Monza has a couple of ultra hard braking zones (chicanes) that are not ideal for charging KERS cause although you do produce the energy the KERS motor can't spin fast enough to recover it. Like I said the car is just out-torquing it.

Kers charges best in moderate breaking not banzai full breaks on zones

This is F1, the best of the best. Teams should be out there going for every single bit of advantage that they can get. If teams can't handle it then they shouldn't be there.

Williams is a racing team, and as such it does things in it's own interest, this isn't a social club.

Then why'd they join FOTA?

Make it more powerful too.

If that was the only thing then Ferrari and McLaren will continue to spend 600m-700m and Williams are going to continue being backmarkers.

McLaren, Ferrari and FOTA are doing this so the small teams can survive and Williams are just being stupid and going against that

After FOTA graciously invited Williams back to FOTA I'm 100% sure this will be sorted out weeks prior to the start of the new season. Afterall, everyone understood why Williams signed up to unconditionally but they will have to play along. Williams do not have the leverage anymore to challenge outside of the track. Those days are gone and both Frank and Patrick know that.

Weeks before the new season?

This must be dealt with immediately. You can be damn sure that most teams are already hard at work designing their KERS-less 2010 cars, and if Williams suddenly decide to go with KERS, other teams might find it imperative to follow along to make sure Williams dont gain a competitive advantage over them.

It must be sorted now and fast. They have to know whether they design their cars with or without KERS. This is also connected to allocating the necessary budget and force.
If Williams think they gonna beat the leaders who already have an year of on-track experience, they are very much misled.

Just a figure of speech from my side. 'Weeks' as in good time before the new season starts.

Ferrari, McLaren, Renault and BMW already have the chassis and know-how to implement KERS. That project is still running and if needed, it can be used next year as well. But I don't believe Williams using KERS in 2010 will be a scandal like the DDD issue involving Brawn, Toyota and Williams this year. It will be sorted out because FOTA is clearly stronger than Max and Bernie. Every potential threat will be worked out. Max has thrown his last spanner in the works.

Its not about whether or not they have the ability to use KERS, its about knowing which direction to move in, design-wise. I'm sure Ferrari, Mclaren and Renault all have primitive designs for cars that dont have KERS. And there's a big difference. Its not like its just a matter of bolting KERS onto the new car(which will not have the same chassis - narrower front tires and large fuel tank will necessitate a big change).

You can't throw out the possibility that FOTA said they have agreed not to run KERS in 2010 to piss off Max. Afterall, KERS was Max's brainchild. It might never happen. Williams are back in FOTA and maybe used by FOTA now to try and lure Max into thinking there is a controversy going on (the price Williams had to pay to get back). As he would obviously like very much. These days you can't say anything is 'for sure.

Another conspiracy?
I am more inclined to believe Max and Bernie are trying to split FOTA again. And Williams are their tool. Maybe this time Frank got some money for the KERS from Max?

So why would FOTA invite Williams back? And why aren't they thrown out after that comment?

IIRC Williams were never excluded but rather had their membership temporarily suspended. And I am not sure whose intiative it was restoring their full membership.
But it is strange that a team who always moan about being a small one and not having enough money, who happily accepted the budged cap and the idea of a two tier championship, to announce they're planning to use KERS while the bigger teams have decided not to for the sake of cost cutting.

No because rules were set in place to curb spending, additionally all the teams have agreed to cut spending, therefore Ferrari and Mclaren can not spend 600-700m. Williams (who it is rumored signed up as a cost capped team next year) is developing a device that is perfectly within the rules, and has been quite open the whole way through that they have continued to develop it. They are doing nothing wrong - they have always said that they will run KERS.

Frank Williams has also stated that their sponsorship hinges on KERS, so financially a team, that prior to this season many were saying would not make it, has spent millions on developing a unique KERS system, and has financial incentives from sponsorship to run it, is being asked to forego this expenditure and accept possible financial ramifications in order to support the minnows, even though they are a minnow?

Just because the direction that Williams has been working towards clashes with other teams who work with a similar or much larger budget, doesn't mean that it should be banned. Case in point Wind Tunnels - there has been talk to cap Wind Tunnel time as a cost saving measure, Williams has two wind tunnels but has admitted that they are well short on cfd computing power, limiting Wind Tunnel usage will hinder teams that have invested in that area of development whilst helping teams that have invested in computing power.

Does anyone else think that Williams is a day late and a dollar short? This team continues to make bad move after bad move. KERS? Maybe they should get a car that is fast before they go the KERS route. Williams first bad move was dropping Mansell then they got rid of Hill. Sir Frank has lost it. These guys will fight to keep Rosberg and he has not been a consitant performer since he has been in F1. l

Dear Thread,
I sense merging in your future...

Clearly not so! They could choose to stay with Toyota or go to another of potentially three manufacturers. Only related to a Hobson's choice in that - ultimately - it is about horses.

Exactly. Frank better come up with an engine that can accept his KERS system before he starts claiming he's going to use it next year.

No

I think Frank and Patrick ought to call it a day and retire to a well deserved end game.
Williams have proven their worth over many years and I think time has passed them by.

It would be awesome to see Williams win a title one again.

They could have easily won in it in 2003... Had they won it, I think BMW would have stayed.

A merger with a manufacturer and they would be right back on track. For the $, they are fairly competent and produce a generally good car apart from the odd slump in form here and there.

Brawn would not make such a good car on Williams budget - they had a massive budget to design the 09, Red Bull have unlimited fizzy drink dollars to hire the Neweys and Vettels when there is a chance (even though the base budget is limited), Force India are in a great patch - they have concentrated on a slippery aero pack and the Macca rear end is a very good value purchase - but previously FI struggled to make Q2 and the current speed is probably partially a fluke. So really Williams are possibly still the best of the private teams with limited money.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/61970/1/new_e..._programme.html

Williams bought a stake in a KERS company so they potentially have more at stake if it's dumped.

In fact, I also tend to think Williams are using KERS as a bargaining chip for somethin else they want.

No I don't think that's right. Mercedes has said McLaren won't let them, Ferrari would require approval from the FIA and other teams, the Toyota is rubbish, the Cosworth unproven and Renault are playing hard to get. Of course you're right that they are not 'forced' to use Cosworth engines but they clearly will have trouble getting the best powerplants so I don't see how it diminishes my point in any way.

Williams has spent the money and the rules allow KERS. That's an edge they've already paid for and that they are likely to need next year.

Spain - 8th
Monaco - 6th
Turkey - 5th
Great Britain - 5th
Germany - 4th
Hungary - 4th
Europe - 5th
Belgium - 8th

..If that isn't consistent can you explain what is please?

Williams have every right to use KERS if it is still in the rules. End of.

You sure about that? My understanding is that Merc can't take anymore teams due their commitments.

Max supply per manufacturer in 2010 is 4
Merc -> McLaren, Brawn,FI + vacant spot. Merc want it to go to RedBull, McLaren is blocking it so Williams may get it

Renault "reportedly" were attaching conditions to the engine supply, but now with Flav gone and Renault confirming they are staying on who knows ...

Ferrari, Renault and Toyota are under the max and can freely supply Williams if they want to. But I think the last thing Frank would ever do would be to run a Ferrari engine on the back of his cars

The problem though, like I said a couple of times in similar threads, is for Williams to find somebody to supply them with engines with KERS headers. Clearly if FOTA don't want KERS for 2010 they can simply remove the headers from their engines thus making sure nobody runs KERS. In that case Cosworth would be Frank's only choice.

Ah, fair enough, thanks.

wasn't williams' idea to place the generator behind the gear box? or did they abandon that idea and place it between the driver and the engine?
Kers headers? I assume that is the bit of the crank shaft that connects to the kers? is it something that is bolted on to the shaft? does it form 1 part with the shaft? Is a engine manufacturer allowed to change this part/ does it fall under the restrictions? is it possible for a team like williams to make a new crankshaft? Is it allowed in the rules?
a lot of questions, sorry.

I've looked and can't find. It was probably just a throwaway comment on a blog then. Moot point anyway since McLaren saying no, or Mercedes being at capacity, results in the same thing anyway.