Just what exactly are Williams up to?

Why rejoin FOTA if you are going to do your own thing anyway with KERS and just get kicked out of FOTA again? Make up your mind Frank, either you are with them or you are against them. You can't have it both ways. You had a chance to run KERS this year with the rest of the teams, you couldn't get your act together and now that the teams are all agreed to drop it to push towards a level playing field you come in to rock the boat.

Big to Mclaren (less so to Ferrari), as they had the best KERS system and have agreed to drop it in favour of good relations amongst the teams and supporting the FOTA cause.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news...922133528.shtml

Why should Williams investment be wasted?

Williams may say they'll use it, but their redicilous flywheel system is unlikely to ever work effectively, so the experts say anyway

Not quite sure what you are getting at- does that mean that you want McLaren and Ferrari to continue KERS too?

Which experts?

you know, the internet trolls who know more about f1 than most team principles

I really think that whenever we get to see the engine speczation stuff and that BMW, Renault and Toyota will be allowed to catch up with Mercedes and Ferrari...

Then what shall we see?

Both of them will put KERS on their cars for 2010, which is even bigger advantage for 2010 with the increased weight os the cars, with all the fuel onboard at the start of the races and with the narrower front tires.

You know, THE experts

I don't know that it needs to break FOTA apart. Perhaps there is enough appetite within FOTA to reverse the gentlemens agreement on KERS. If both Brawn and Red Bull get their hands on Mercedes engines next season, they might fancy a matching KERS package too. Renault and Ferrari both have working systems that will be sat there, workable but unused. Toyota would have surely continued developing their own version if they hadn't been so competitive in the first few races without it and the teams that did use it were struggling so hard - likely due to reasons other than KERS.

Besides, this week has proven that there aren't too many gentlemen in F1.

Because FOTA are a joke, have always been a joke and will continue to be a joke.

You cannot have one single body represent the best interests of the richest teams and the poorest teams without conflicts of interest within that.

So long as the regulations say you can run KERS, why wouldn't you? Because teams with budgets and outside interests that dwarf yours say you shouldn't?

To be honest, I'd be amazed if either McLaren or Ferrari themselves didn't go back on the agreement as the new season draws near. Their KERS systems are a real advantage now.

Frank obviously wants something else and this is his ploy to get that.....he's learning from Max.

I am almost sure it won't happen. It is probably some kind of extortive move from old Frank.

Ops, mark f1 beat me.

The Fota cause meaning that Flavio get's Bernie's job and LdM all the glory? It doesn't seem to be on schedule

No they're not.




Bingo.

Seems to me that Ferrari has gained just as much as Mclaren have with the use of KERS. Mclaren's system may be a bit lighter or whatever, but they both are agreeing to drop something which they've gotten much good use out of.

Anyways, this is a pretty shabby move by Williams if true. The reasons for the voluntary abandoning of KERS were largely due to the concerns for keeping costs in check. Now they are pretty much forcing everybody to continue to develop this system(which will likely be impossible for any new teams), as they've all seen the advantages that it gives since Ferrari and Mclaren have been at the front lately.

Perhaps this is just a case of Williams trying to mislead the other teams as far as design/development direction with their new cars? Maybe they are just taking a gamble that Ferrari or Mclaren would abandon the agreement at some point as well? Perhaps there's some other unforseen motive?

I really, really, really hope KERS is gone and Williams dont go through with this, though. For the sake of stability within FOTA and for the sake of the new teams(and those on the borderline of quitting).

Mercedes, Ferrari and Renault all have useable KERS systems. If they were to sell them with their engine package then everyone but Toyota and Williams would have KERS (and Toyota surely have at least a part working system somewhere). With the increase weight for next year teams would be able to run these systems as they are. I'm sure Williams would like to sell their system to the new Cosworth teams, if not then Magneti Marelli, Flybrid or Zytek could create something for Cosworth.

I understand why the teams made the agreement but for Williams not using KERS will probably result in loosing money. If their system works well in F1 then Williams Hybrid Technology will gain some serious prestige and their business outside (or even inside with the Cosworth teams) F1 may improve. Right now they just look like a company that produces vapourware. Mechanical systems are the more environmentally friendly option. Williams having a functional rugged system would go a long way to doing what KERS was meant to do in the first place, developing environmentally friendly technologies for wider use.

The way FIA have decided it, you should say - Mercedes will be allowed to catch down with the others

which engine manufacturer will sell Williams an engine with KERS headers though, nobody mentioned that :S Cosworth? Cause if Williams plans to run a FOTA engine I think they need to convince FOTA ;)

But that still creates the issue of new teams having more crap to buy and therefore increasing costs. It also makes their life much more difficult as far as developing the car goes cuz now they have to worry about integrating KERS and making it useful, of which BMW and Renault(large budget teams) both proved is no easy task.

I understand that Williams dont want to lose money, but its just funny when they act like they are the ones who care so much about F1, but then go on to do something that is clearly unsporting and selfish. I at least hope they are kicked out of FOTA once again, not that that really matters all that much.

Hehe, good point.

So now FOTA will ban them again for some months.

True --- I suspect the so called Mercedes power advantage is really to do with engine reliability, the other manufacturers engines can give the same power but have to run de-rated engine maps because of reliability issues.

FOTA does not, yet, make the technical rules and regulations for F1. FOTA is behaving like a dictatorship. Do this, don;t do that, you are expelled, you must rejoin. If this was a true FOTA issue then it would be covered by the CA and a simple majority vote would carry it. It is not, it has been done in isolation and Williams has every right to use KERS if it wants to. FOTA should have taken the FIA along with it and got the ban ratified.

Since the teams I've already spent a fortune on KERS I think it's silly to just walk away from it after a year. I hope Williams and some others (if not all the teams) use it next year.

*shakes head* @ Williams

Do Sir Frank and Patrick have any idea that F1 has a rule book?

Perhaps it is time for the FIA and FOTA to stop assisting Williams and bring on a team - or teams - who will play by the rules they agree to.

I feel exactly the same. The teams have a understanding of the technology now and should continue to develop and use it.

the last team that was alone pushing for kers was about to be deleted from the grid (it actually is on the waiting list)
i can only wish williams will end up there too
they are hypocrites, complaining of costs yet trying to screw everybody with this. it's fine, they can race it, they can do whatever they like as being in the rules and not in any agreement but when they will go bust (and they will) nobody will give a damn about them

I fear that KERS of Williams is a new cause of thechnical disaster. I mean just magine 100 kg balast rotating at 100.000 rpm go off the car at the accident in the Monaco Swiming pool section. 100 or more dies or so... Imagine if it snapps off at the Monza, or in Singa...


OK, balast can be 15 kg but as long as it rotates in 100.000rpm....

No, Williams do understand the rules, it is FOTA which is trying to circumvent them. You can argue the rights and wrongs of that if you like but Williams is proposing nothing more than using what the rules say they can use.

If they are going to be forced to use Cosworth next year, they may have decided they need all the help they can get.

Williams does appear to be doing its best to to get rid of all the goodwill felt towards it from still being an independent.

Personally I like the concept of KERS and hope it will apear in 2010, the decision to not use it appeared to be a bit quick, but by being a member of FOTA, surly this should be talked about before giving an interview to autosport, setting out their stance...

I suppose as a Mclaren fan, this will open the floodgates, not the right way round though.

screwing everybody again after the DDD?
yeah, it's in the rules, and guess what the BIG teams agreed to drop it to help smaller teams who would have not been able to develop a good one.

and they cry for cost reduction?

Here's an interetsing article from Jonathan Noble about KERS.

Williams didn't force teams to run parallel development programs for different systems, nor did they force teams to give up development. And I don't see how you get a cost reduction by not racing something which cost you money and resources to develop.

It's in the rules. They can use it. Don't like the rules? Blame the FIA, not Williams. Your hatred is blinding you to these facts.

Someone should tell that to the KERS car drivers who make up several spots off the grid.

And make sure you tell that to Kimi Raikkonen who won in Spa in an inferior car thanks solely to KERS.

Williams are the boat-rocking FIA mole in the FOTA camp..

Let Williams run it, they'll fail with it and drop it soon enough.

Williams have spent the last year or so heavily investing in this flywheel KERS concept with the intention of bringing it to market in the roadcar sector.

It's got nothing to do with the FIA and everything to do with protecting that investment.

Do the KERS energy constraints remain the same for the 2010 season too, or are they opened up a bit more?

??? Williams themselves have initiated the parting of ways with Toyota. How, then, are they forced to run Cosworths?

they are the same as this year

Oh right. I remember something about it being ramped up, but with the new agreements signed I guess they can't change the values now. If they could be, and one team is commited to exploiting it, it would be very easy for the FIA to double up the KERS output to force FOTA to abolish the KERS boycott.

I am unsure what was put into the technical regulations, but when it was first proposed there was to be an increase of power at the end of the first and second years.

I THINK I read somewhere that the regs for 2011 include something like a doubling of power and time allowed to be used over a lap.

Yes they have a choice that Hobson gave them.

Increase was (is) due in 2011 as per original plan.
The only kers increase that has been mentioned in relation to 2010 was during the budget cap crap, where Max gave budget capped teams a 120KW Kers instead of the current 60KW.



Yes the original plan was for a 200KW-1.6MJ/lap KERS in 2011

Thank you.

are Williams being forced to use Cosworth? i thought they were dropping Toyota out of choice

Thing is, most of the KERS systems seem to be struggling to fill their battery's over the course of a lap already, I'm sure the BMW system had that trouble, not the best example but...

If KERS is to stay, that 200KW-1.6MJ allowance sounds like it WOULD be worth bothering with. That would be one hell of a kick in the pants. It could end up being useful too if you can't overtake in the pits anymore.