Err, that would be the man who has openly said Virgin has NO equity in the team so that shows how accurate this version of events is. My money (probably more than Virgin Racing has got ) is on the team missing at least three races this year.

Hmmm... I understood that while Virgin (the company) has no equity in the team per se, Sir Richard Branson (the individual) does. I also understand that Virgin (the company) are a major sponsor of the team.

That seems like reasonably significant backing, - at least compared with say, USF1.

I could be wrong and I'm happy to be corrected with any factual evidence to the contrary.

Never seen any sources stating this but would be keen to see them if you can find them

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jul/0...nor-formula-one

also reported by autosport http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76653 (needs subscription)


But at some point the whole derailing should stop, this is a USF1 thread not a Virgin thread

You're right - sorry!

Hi Big Guns" I find it admirable the 1000 excuses you are coming up to justify pretty much alll their shortcomings. I think yiu are thinking too highly of them. Again: where is the beef?? I hear lots of "they might" or "most likely" etc. but the one most basic thing ks not here: the wheels on the ground and a shred of chassis on top of them. You and some other peopel are saying how clever and forseeing they are and I don't think it's the case. One thing is very clear: they totally missed their Economy 101 course. What fool relies on one backer for funding of their team. And say they tried to find more but they were unsuccessfull, why in the wolrd would you go ahead with your plans anyway? Only if you are ruthless then you start a business venture asking your employees and suppliers to be happy even if they don't get paid."Hiring" your pilots only if they bring money with them. Here we are talking about a business that runs on a couple of thousand dollars. They millions and millions of them.

If it looks like a scam. If it looks like a scam. if it's run like a scam...IT IS A SCAM. We have been wacthing F1 for long enough to know how to recognize a serious team from a fake one.

So its all but official that new teams can miss 3 races and not risk exclusion from Bernie. USF1 will not miss 1 race.

Bookoo Bucks Chad Hurley can't fund it enough to fly to all three continents, in the first three races, my arse.

Its time to make an impact and I can easily see Lopez on the podium in his rookie year at least once.

Never forget in F1 there are races of attrition. Panis won Monaco this way.

USF1 is legit.

.

I don't know. I only hear about diffrent parts being tested. I have not see anything put together. Do they an engine to install? Because the last time I herad about it, Costhworth has noty sent anything at all because USF1 lack of moniey.

The BBC did an interview with Branson and reported that Virgin has NO equity in the team. More to the point, the question was about sources showing that BRANSON (not Virgin) has shares in the team. The email does not show this...

Sorry, but I get the impression that USF1 is/was Hurley's blonde trophy wife. Fun while it lasts/ed, but after a while you gotta cut off the credit cards.
Not so much fun if you're constantly paying the pimp......

As for Lopez on the podium? You mean George from GeniiCap/Renault, right?? Little more realistic.....

All of the sudden Montezemolo's idea to race in F1 with 3 cars per team makes sense. The chippining of F1 is starting showing all its uglyness.

We'll see for how long. so far no beef in sight.

does anyone else find it odd that a person with such obvious venom towards another person would actually work for that person?

there's a tremendous amount of hate towards Ken Anderson in CK's posts. I find it hard to believe that stems from mere disillusionment.

Except for the glaring detail that they have nothing to do with YouTube. While Hurley is the founder of YouTube, he sold it and his investment in the team has nothing to do with the company. USF1 couldn't brand themselves YouTubeF1 anymore than they could brand themselves Coca Cola F1.

We haven't seen races of attrition for a long time in F1 because the cars are much more reliable than they used to be in the '80s or earlier.
About Panis win in Monaco '96: sure a lot of cars retired that race but if you had seen that race then you would have known that Panis overtook a lot of cars. Even though Monaco is notoriously hard to pass he did fight his way up during the race with the highlight a fantastic aggressive pass on Eddie Irvine's Ferrari al the Loews hairpin. Make no mistake: Panis deserved to win that one because he was simply the best driver that day.

What exactly would be the point of such a "scam"? There is a facility. Two in fact. There are employees. There is equipment for the construction of a race car. While they are having what appear to be management and execution issues, it's hardly a "scam" as you put it. It's more like a management group operating at the limits of their capability and resources. One thing is for sure, they are serious about wanting to compete. The question at this point is if there is enough time to pull it off.

I think you're trolling us. There's no way a sane, rational person could believe to any great degree that USF1 will get a podium this year. It's technically possible, however it's a less than 1% chance. For you to say otherwise says that you have no idea how F1 works in the real world.

As I said,- I'm happy to be proven wrong and indeed, I am...

From Wikipedia (which incidentally concurs with the Virgin Racing Website):


So it is Virgin (not Branson) that has the 20% stake in VR. Seems we were both wrong. Of course, you were wrong first, so therefore "wronger"...

Now back to USF1. While they may perhaps stumble to the grid at some point this year, it appears (from all the information available to date) it will be like a one-legged man racing a field of Usain Bolts. Not pretty, - but somehow, we just won't be able to look away...

You do realise that I am a Peter Windsor/Ken Anderson detractor, right?

I'm not against the hard working people at USF1, but am very much a big detractor of their upper management.

Go back and read my VERY FIRST POST in this ENTIRE thread, and then come back and tell me I'm making pro USF1 excuses.

Just because someone tries to show a slight sense of balance, and does not have an acutely polarized view on something, it does not mean that you can go on and assume what their motivation is .

I don't mean to rail on you, but your entire post was made entirely redundant to me by your second sentence.



Since some people seem to be completely misunderstanding my stance, I'll spell it out:

I want to see a full grid of ALL the teams, old and new, for 2010. I want the US to have a greater presence in F1, because I feel that it will help the sport grow in North America. However, I feel that USF1 operation is run by a pair of magnificently incompetent goofs, with ZERO credibility. I NEVER liked Peter Windsor, and the moment I knew he was starting up this project, I knew it was bound to fail. However, having said that, now that the project HAS begun, I do feel some compassion towards the hard working, passionate people, who are working there. I want this thing to work for THESE people, and not for the sake of a smug Peter Windsor. Me WANTING it to be a success, though, does not mean that it WILL be. In all likelihood, it may not be, but at this point, we have so many mixed stories and rumours flying around, we have no idea what is actually going on.

That is pure mismanagement, which in turn, is pure Peter Windsor. The man cannot tell his head from his arse, and thinks that he can run a Formula One team.

Anyway, with all the above knowledge, I take every positive and negative news or rumour with a grain of salt. This is a USF1 discussion thread, so if there is information regarding their car, I want to hear about it, and talk about it. If there is information regarding their participation, I want to hear about that, and talk about that too. I'm not here to make excuses for anyone, or defend anyone. These people are men, and can do that for themselves.

The only thing that really irked me in this entire thread has been the behaviour of a certain poster, whom we don't even know is the real deal or not. If my post directed at him is considered "defending" the team, then I don't really know what to say.

Hopefully now, you understand what my position on their situation is.

Here is the layout of the factory, I was looking for this a few days ago but forgot where it was.

That's answered a LOT of questions. We now know they have at least 5 cars.

Looks good on paper anyway.

I think that one car off to the side is the old Gurney that they have in the shop?

And the biggest problem I have found, is they will have to carry the cars sideways or take them apart to get them out of the build area. Reminds of that time I had a few stairs to climb with a couch, and just could not make the turns myself, so I had to position the couch on my head and pray that I did not fall backwards.

WHy do you dislike Windsor so much, and how do you conclude that he is so inept?


Cooper

The only remaining question to my mind is; Are PW and KA this dumb or that smart?

- Did they really believe in their own faked CV's (GM of Ferrari!) and that they could build a serious F1 car on a shoestring in an NC garage with 55 parking spots?

- Or was it a way of promoting SpeedTV or simply liberating Chad Hurley and others from some of his savings?

Raz

We call that "garage" a race shop around here. And in that area there are more professional "garages" than any other single place on the planet. How many full scale rolling bed windtunnels, shaker rigs, CFD clusters and composite shops are available for hire in the UK? I'll be kind, throw in Europe too. I'll give you a hint. It's a lot less than within 50 miles of that shop.

What's the problem then?

The problems are walking inside and around the "garage" huh? ..and talking alot of crap.

No, we know they have a little drawing of 5 cars. All the info we have says they have no cars.

Woosh! Shit, something flew straight over your head.

You'd have to ask them what the problem is but I would think management and cash flow. They bit off a big hunk and have found out it's not an easy gig. Like it or not, the US is the largest producer of professional race vehicles on the planet. By a large margin. I love F1. The material, expertise and resources to build a competitive F1 car do exist over here. What doesn't exist is the profit motive or desire, except for USF1. Why should it? What are Ferarri or McLaren spending these day, $500 mil/year? A US company can spend a 1/20th of that over here and get far, far more return on the investment in this market. Most of you folks still don't get it. Except for the FOM and a handful of teams there is little profit or value proposition in F1. While there is a lot of money involved it's going into very few pockets. The future of F1 depends on the Campos, USF1s, Manors, Lotus and other privateers to survive. The costs are going to have to come down or we'll have Ferarri and McLaren fielding 10 cars each. It will be a tough transition but in the next few years these lower budget teams will be the norm.

Possibly.. even then there's going to be shit(ier) teams..

So far the issue with USF1 isn't the rest of the world, it's just them not meeting whatever objectives they set for themselves.

..and I agree about management and cash flow being the main issue, though IMO it's a bit of an oxymoron here as that particulat management was always suspect and NOT confidence-inspiring.

BTW.. by USF1's standards I'm american too, so it's not like I'm one of them deluded misinformed idiots overseas, lol..

Maybe it's your knowledge of the English language that is the grounds for your slight mistake here. In the post from Big Guns that you quoted, he is not actuall making any excuses for the team. In fact he is questioning the logic of the team seemingly using resources on an advanced DD diffuser at this stage. Big Guns is actually questioning the team, not making up excuses for them...

Your post also seems to be full of hearsay and rumours portrayed as facts. Like how do we KNOW that they only relied on one sponsor? And this year we have the Sauber team without sponsors so far, Renault having a pay driver (Petrov supplying over $20 mill), Red Bull with one main sponsor and I'm sure business history will show many businesses relying on just one backer (so in your words there must be many fools out there...). Having more sponsors is preferable, but only having one sponsor is not a reason to call it quits. If that sponsor provides enough money to start the team and start the season I think most teams would continue as long as they could and hope to attract sponsors during the season. That's what's happened in the past at least.

I understand that you don't particularly like the USF1 team, and that's fair. I also see that USF1 is struggling to make it to Bahrain at the moment, but the team is not a "fake" or a "scam" team. A fake team would consist just on paper, it would not have a shop in the US, a base in Spain, employees, equipment and videos and pictures showing at least one carbonfibre tub. If the team manages to build two cars and race this season is another question, but the team is real. And what would be the benefit for those involved in this "scam"? If the team fails to compete in the 2010 season, that's just what it is: a failure. The team failed to achieve it's goal.

A scam is something different from a failure:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scam



They have failed miserably in gaining the confidence of Bernie, journalists and the general public.

If the team ends up selling their grid slot to Stefan GP for a large profit, then it's getting closer to a scam, with the FIA as the "mark". But it would be quite an elaborate scam if you actually pour out money and build expensive parts for the car, hire people and refurbish the shop etc... They would have to sell at a premium price if it was to be a successful scam...

By USF1 standards, so are most nationalities, even Welshmen!

I think the vast majority of the detractors believe they're really trying... they're not a "fake" team at all.

Sometimes though, desperation can lead to desperate measures, and hopefully at this point there isn't TOO much disparity between what they're saying and the truth.

I mean, look at the situation with Campos, their alleged new investor already owes money to all sorts of racers, can't make his own series work, etc.. yet he's supposed to be a savior.

By contrast, the latest from USF1 is that the car is late because 'massive development time' went into it, and there was a hiccup with a sponsor which is supposedly resolved now.. hmmm, hmm.. am I suppose to believe that?

Bernie for a while hasn't made a difference between the two teams, and he puts them in the same boat.. surely there's a reason for that. Someone is bullsh*tting us, most likely Windsor and Anderson.

Well, as far as I know the whole idea behind the US is that it's a melting pot of different nationalities. After all how many citizens of the US is not of European, African or Asian descent???

I'm not sure that the team ever said they would hire only US citizens as employees though (apart from the drivers originally).

Agreed for the most part. I'm still holding my breath with regards to Bernie's ramblings though. He has made some rather strange suggestions lately and I don't know when he is just talking crap or when he talks based on objective facts...

BTW, I edited my previous post to elaborate my view a little bit while you posted your reply

Can I be one of the first to say that I hope Chad Hurley pulls the plug on the Ken Anderson/Peter Windsor project?

Given Peter Windsor's admiration of Carlos Reutemann and Reutemann's help in getting Lopez a seat, I don't see how it could be a scam. It would endanger Reutemann's political career and whatever else I think of Peter Windsor, I don't think he'd do that. For the same reason I think he must believe that there's a good chance of making the grid.

Why ask, you just said it

But, why do you want him to pull the plug?

87 pages... insanity.

The hate in strong in here.

I doubt that it is a scam but I do believe Windsor and Anderson are hopelessly out of their depth

Windsor says they planned USF1 3 years ago, Windsor made the USF1 announcement way before the other new teams did, Windsor has managed 2 F1 teams so should know how the system works yet they are hopelessly behind everyone else in terms of getting ready bar Campos

I am sure they are trying to get a team together but the whole thing has been like something out of the keystone cops

Hurley should sack Windsor and Anderson and get some people in who are competent

The Schumacher raped denied a child an autograph made 9 pages in 3 days... I'd say this one here is still well within the acceptable limits.

The point being that this sorry outfit has made "US-this" and "US-that" a selling aregument, when PW himself is kinda anglo-aussie and he
then hired another aussie to run the team (John Andersson) and somehow persuaded the Argentinian government to pay for the show.
Many of the designers seem to be british and so is the supposed engine, gearbox is unclear.

Nothing strange with this setup, the way it works in most teams save Ferrari, but I don't hear Mecedes calling their team "German GPE" or
Martin Whitmarsh raving about "how great it is to be back in the UK where people are not lazy", after his christmas holidays in the states?

Raz

IMHO, that' what I believe too. Not a scam/fraud per se, but they have bitten off waaay more than they can chew.

This is not really true, he was indeed GM for Ferrari UK on paper, but his task was little more than closing down the Ferrari design office in Guildford,
after John Barnard had left for Benetton with most of the staff. He never ran the Ferrari F1 team or anything.

Again, on paper he was manager of some sort with Williams, but not like he was making any decisions above Frank and Patrick Head, get outa here.

Raz

I don't think it was said that he had made decisions above FW or Patrick Head, or that it would matter for that part. The point that MegaManson was trying to make, I guess, was that having been in a managerial position at two F1 teams, PW would know a little bit about what it takes to run a F1 operation.

I don't think people here are actually arguing that USF1 is fake, I know I certainly am not. They are arguing it was overhyped and ultimately appears to be missing pretty much every single deadline. Compare USF1 to Lotus, nobody says Lotus is the best F1 team ever but ... they got the grid slot in mid September and in five months managed to be ready to race. USF1 with a lot more time on its hands hasn't managed to do the same, inspite of the hype that it surrounded itself in. So most people (myself included) are arguing USF1 is a badly managed project, not a scam. If the stories that they got 20m of youtube money are true then there really are no excuses, they had the money to build something, ok not something as elaborate as what Ferrari or McLaren can build but definitely something better than a solitary tub with a mock engine strapped on.

Completely agree with this. This is about incompetence not scamming. I am a long time F1 fan in the US and I have been waiting for something like this for 25 years. It is really frustrating and demoralizing to watch this chaos. It could have and should have been done properly.

Nicely ridiculed.