It's hard to predict but I doubt Campos will be the worst since Dallara is designing their chassis. I think Manor is taking a big risk to design a car without using a wind tunnel.

Where I live (in Europe) we have had HD available for some time now, but it seems like some people (like the F1 TV broadcast) live in the old days of broadcasting. HD TV is not cutting edge tech that costs millions of dollars anymore (at least in the US).

And, isn't F1 very much about marketing after all...???? If you want to raise money/attract sponsors you have to provide them with marketing space. Realistically they cannot expect to "do a Brawn" and get lots of coverage for leading the races in their first F1 season. They have to look at other ways of getting the medias and publics attention.

It wouldn't be a good business plan if they didn't have a solid marketing plan thought out.

You may not think that USF1 is making sufficient progress to get on the grid, but that is just your opinion, and I'm willing to bet that it isn't based on much fact.

With regards to the other half of the current grid which you have just written-off;
Firstly Williams is one of the most successful teams in F1 history, so how you can think that a team which has only ever won one race is more 'deserving' of a place in the sport is frankly ridiculous.
Secondly - and I know I keep going on about this - but there is a set of rules which exists in F1, just because Williams doesn't go around allowing exceptions to be made to it, doesn't make them a bad team, it simply shows that they believe in fair play. Even in its toughest times ie. now, Williams has never asked for any unfair assistance themselves. Thirdly, Williams aren't scared of any team, they simply want to be as competitive as possible, and an influx of new teams will hurt their ability to score points and sign sponsorship deals. So, regardless of which new teams enter the sport - USF1, Campos, Lotus, Manor or allowing Sauber to re-enter - that will compromise their business. As I mentioned earlier, the only reason Williams isn't in the same mess that Sauber are in, is that they maintained their independence.

Lastly, please note how many points Sauber scored in their last year as an inde team, it is considerably less than Williams scored this season. Prior to that Sauber was pretty much a Ferrari B team - using year-old designs from another team. It is amazing how short some people's memories actually are.

Despite your prejudice to other operations on - or on their way to - the grid. I would love to see Sauber make it for 2010. But I think it is only sporting that the teams who have been given an entry for 2010 are given every opportunity to do so, to deny them of that - as you clearly would if anyone was stupid enough to give you the power to do so - would completely destroy F1's credibility and make it impossible for any teams in the future to put a business case forward to investors. You would end up with no possibility uture teams entering the sport.

We'll I'd rank the potential new teams capability and ability to be on the grid next year in the following order: Sauber - Manor - Campos - Lotus - USF1.

I guess but what is it that is going to get the yanks behind the team ?

Is it going to be fancy marketing ? the yanks then watch in droves for the first couple of races while the cars finish last and then switch off

or is it

A competitive team

Windsor is putting the cart before the horse with all the fancy gimmicks whereas what will get the yanks watching is a decent car

Look at Spain, did the Spaniards care about De La Rosa when he was trundling at the back of the grid in Jaguar etc ? did De La Rosa's presence ignite racing passions in Spain ? NO, what got Spaniards watching F1 and excited about F1 was Alonso being successful

Windsor should build a competitive team FIRST and then add the fancy PR gimmicks when the team becomes successful

I would bump Lotus up that list considerably due to the following;

manufacturer support
strong position from the point-of-view of gaining sponsors (due to the above)
excellent and proven technical director

As with most people, I simply don't know what progress USF1 has made, but their factory is looking fairly impressive.

Why not try to do both?

Or, do you know for a fact that they are not concentrating about the car?

What is the point in marketing a flop ? and USF1 will flop least for the first year probably longer

Will Americans turn on their tv en masse to watch cars come 24th and 26th ?

So why do companies sponsor teams like Force India, Toro Rosso? If everybody was just interested in sponsoring the team that is guaranteed to win, or has a realistic chance of winning, then most of the teams on the grid wouldn't have any sponsors... (and the sponsors are there for the marketing, right?).

Realising that they (USF1) will not be on the front end of the grid makes it even more important to have a good marketing strategy. They are competing with other teams, that will also most likely run at the back of the grid, for sponsorship money. If I had marketing money to spend, but couldn't afford McLaren, I would look at who had the most appealing marketing strategy. If I had the 4 new teams as my possible partners, I would realise that all of them will possibly be struggling in their first season. But which of them can show me a good, and maybe innovative, marketing strategy that gives me most coverage for my money.

So, your strategy would be: No marketing at all until we win races? I'm sure that would be very appealing to sponsors...

I have also come to the conclusion that you must have access to inside information about the progress of the USF1 car (and the other teams as well) since you are so sure that it will "flop" compared to the other cars. Is this privileged information that you are not at liberty to share with the rest of us or can you give us mere mortals some insight?

I wasn't talking about sponsors I was talking about American FANS tuning in, the fancy HD videos etc would not be for benefit of sponsors it would be to get more Americans watching the coverage on Speed to cheer for Windsor, USF1 will get sponsors but what I am dubious about is whether they will bring new fans to the sport in America

There are far too many problems that will restrict a mass entry of new fans

1) Coverage on an obscure cable channel (Speed)
2) No US GP
3) No competitive American driver

Those 3 things are what is needed to be sorted to get more American fans to the sport not Peter Windsor's fancy HD videos

Well actually Williams convinced Bernie to pay them 15 million pounds at the start of the season to help clear some debt, and there have been talks of a rather large financial deal to break ranks with FOTA and sign on to Max's championship. They went from losing RBS sponsorship and near bankruptcy to suddenly looking quite pleased with themselves and able to ditch the Toyota relationship (surprise surprise for the FIA reinvigorated Cosworth).

1. Can someone supply a link to a photo of the putative Campos roller? I have not seen it.

2. The SpeedTV Abu Dhabi pre-race show included a visit by Matchett to the USF1 shops, where we saw component machining going on and CFD simulations in progress.

In my opinion, USF1 is further along than any of the other three teams.

I have to hold my hand-up and say I didn't know about any advance on prize money.
Although, I certainly didn't think that Minardi's 'fighting fund' which kept them competing in the sport was 'unfair', it is in FOM's own best interests to help keep teams going, so that seems like a purely commercial decision to me.
I doubt that there is any evidence to suggest that Williams broke ranks with FOTA for any reason other than the necessity to ensure that they continued racing in Formula 1, that is what their shareholders expect of them and so I don't seem them having much choice but to go down that path.

While I agree with your points, I'm not so sure that your apparent conclusion isn't barking up the wrong tree.

Does USF1 need to turn American racing fans to F1 in order for it to be a success? I don't really think it does. In what I've read since the announcement of USF1 they've given a number of reasons for establishing their base in North Carolina, but it's never seemed to me that their purpose was to somehow maker F1 an American sport. They're a race team. That they're identified with the US may help in securing sponsorship or marketing aside, they're still a race team. The world's becoming a smaller place and global marketing is more important than in any one country.

Having said that, while the percentage of Americans who are F1 fans may be very small, and even the percentage of American racing fans who are F1 fans may be small, the total number of American F1 fans is not as small as you might think. They're also very enthusiastic. Also, the arguments I hear now about American never following or supporting F1 are similar to those I heard in the early 70's about GP motorcycle racing. Things CAN change. Even in the US.

USF1 also on the FOTA website (without logo).

USF1 have been listed as members of those working groups for many months on the FOTA website.

Reminds me this:
Potemkin villages were purportedly fake settlements erected at the direction of Russian minister Grigory Potyomkin to fool Empress Catherine II during her visit to Crimea in 1787. According to this story, Potyomkin, who led the Crimean military campaign, had hollow facades of villages constructed along the desolate banks of the Dnieper River in order to impress the monarch and her travel party with the value of her new conquests, thus enhancing his standing in the empress' eyes.
"Potemkin village" has also frequently been used to describe the attempts of the Soviet government to fool foreign visitors. The government would take such visitors, who were often already sympathetic to socialism or communism, to select villages, factories, schools, stores, or neighborhoods and present them as if they were typical, rather than exceptional. Given the strict limitations on the movement of foreigners in the USSR, it was often impossible for these visitors to see any other examples.[5] "Potemkin village" has also been used to describe states and cities whose low tax régimes allow international companies to base their headquarters there, but to conduct their real businesses elsewhere.

Interesting article on Crash.net

http://www.crash.net/f1/News/154381/1/usf1...d_champion.html









Do people still think of USF1 as "just a joke", "rubbish" etc.?

Either there is some people in USF1 that is deliberately making a smoke screen and just making up stories about what the team does. Or maybe it's time for some people on this board to start to take them serious?

At least I cannot see any reason to take USF1 less serious than the other teams.

A-ha...
Told you so !

USGP is not making any crash tests.
In the last FOTA meeting it was a common oppinion that none of the new entrants could sell their licenses, to guarantee the spot to Sauber, but Peter Windor was the only one to disagree.

Crook

It seems it would be like "in this financial situation we couldn't find enough money for our presents in F1 bla-bla-bla". I don't believe in this stuff.

Excellent theory.

Small problem, though: for all these vague allusions to the whole thing being a fake, no-one seems to have any idea as to what it could be aboue. Potemkin villages were set up to impress Catherine II and made it look like Crimea was actualy worth taking, but if USF1 is a Potemkin village, what is its purpose?

Williams in 2009 were effectively a Toyota B team. Toyota scored more points than Williams, 25 points more, (rather satisfying, so did Sauber score more points than Williams).

Williams have enjoyed high points, namely, their partnership with Renault, (the best engine by far at the time), and Honda, (the best engine by far at the time).

They also had the BMW engine, (by far the best of the time), and lost due to having a crap car.

In 2006, when they had Cosworth engines, and Jenson Button sponsorship, Williams scored 11 points. In 2005, when Sauber was an indie, they scored 20 points.

JarnoA clearly has his views on Williams, which he is entitled to of course. But some of your points (pun not intended) is a bit unbiased. This has the effect of diminishing your arguments slightly IMHO.

If we are discussing the qualities of the car and team then we need to look into more than just how many points where scored in the season (even though I agree that is the official measure of how well the team as a whole did). But since your point seems to be how bad the Williams team was/is, then might I also ask you to take into consideration how many points each driver scored at Sauber, Toyota and Williams?

Williams only had one driver scoring points (because they effectively where a Toyota B team as you say and had to take on Nakajima). Rosberg is 7th in the standings with 34,5 points. In front of him are two Brawn, two RedBull, one McLaren and one Ferrari driver. Rosberg scored points in 11 of the 17 races. Toyota scored points with one or two of the three drivers in 10 of the 17 races and Sauber also scored points in 10 of the 17 races with one or two of their drivers.

Rosberg is 7th in the WDC points table.
The Sauber drivers are 13th and 14th respectively in the WDC points table.
The Toyota drivers are 8th and 10th (and Kobayashi 18th) in the WDC points table.

So. Yes, Sauber and Toyota scored more points than Williams. Sauber managed to score two more points with two drivers than Williams managed with one driver. Very impressive... And if Williams had another good driver then it could have been quite close between Williams and Toyota (one is wondering if Toyota had to put a "bad" driver in the second Williams car just to make sure that the factory team had a better chance than the customer team...).

For me that means that Williams position these past seasons has been compromised by their second drivers points scoring abilities (which is directly related to their deal with Toyota). So, to me, that means that you cannot just look at the WCC points scored and draw the conclusion that the car and team is bad. For me the fact that the Sauber team only managed to score two more points with two good drivers than Williams did with only one driver scoring points tells a lot about the Sauber this year...

But I suspect that is not what JarnoA is really interested in. It's that the Williams team scored less than Sauber and Toyota in the WCC and that is what gives you pleasure? A more in depth analysis of the WDC and WCC table isn't really your thing is it?

Well put

Just to spell it out for the bias and misinformed.
A 'B' Team generally uses the design or even manufacturing facilities of its host - in the instance of Honda/Super Aguri (design & manufacture + engines), Red Bull/STR (design & manufacture), Ferrari/Sauber (design + engines)

Williams simply used Toyota engines and the services of its 'highly rated' young driver Nakajima. There was initially a jointly-developed gearbox, which was quickly dropped and quite honestly, Toyota probably got more out of that deal than Williams did. As with any engine deal there will have been Toyota engineers working on the installation, but are you really stupid enough to think that because Red Bull has Renault engineers working deep within the team on engine installation, that make them a 'B' team?
Actually, scratch that you probably are!

This is not good news if correct:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news...106121640.shtml

GMM though which have the credibility as a news source on about the level of the Beano but if Windsor is heading up an elaborate scam hoodwinking Ferguson, Hurley and others so he can shit on them and make a cool £10-20m from selling grid slot then I hope he is banned from the paddock same way Flav was

They are quoting Auto Motor und Sport as their source and if some of the things Michael Scmidt has written is anything to go by, then I wouldn't call them a unbiased source of information regarding USF1.

From his blog on AMuS a few weeks ago (translated by Google):



Is it more naive to build a race car in the motorsport capital of the US than it is to set up a race team in Hinwil, Switzerland?

I am more worried about Brawns concerns with regards to crash testing and that Windsor wanted to keep open the option of selling the grid place.



Edited to include this:


Found the piece of news on the AMuS site. It's from their series of "Radio Pitlane" reports from the race weekends. It has the appearance of reporting more on gossip than being actual news stories, even though there are some more factual information pieces as well.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...ld-1452720.html



But I suspect that it's not easy to just sell their grid place? I guess the FIA would have something to say about this. And besides who would be ready to set up a team for next season at this time of the year? Not much time for preparation.

Michael Schmidt is a credible journalist for sure

But likewise would USF1 bother setting up deals to have their HQ at Motorland if they were just conducting a scam ? I don't trust Windsor one bit but I do think USF1 are trying to be serious but just throwing loads of balls into the air and hoping some of them land in the right place

I'm sure he's credible, but he seems quite anti USF1 in his blog. It's how he writes about them that indicates he doesn't give them credit at all. Either he knows something he cannot write yet about the USF1 team or he just isn't able to hide his feelings.

As I said, what is more naive about building a race car in the motorsport capital of the US with lots of sub suppliers in the local area compared to setting up a F1 team in Hinwil, Switzerland?

I'm sure many people, and journalists, where quite pessimistic about the Sauber teams chances with it being placed so far away from the other F1 facilities at that time. If you can do it in Switzerland, why not in the US? (And I know the Sauber team had competed in sports cars etc before becoming a F1 team).

The more I think about it, the more I think his comment about location is just stupid. If you can build a F1 car in the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy then why not in the US, Malaysia, Russia etc.?

It would be a pain in the arse for them having to ship all the time from America for the European and other races but no reason why it shouldn't work, mind you sounds like Motorland will take care of that problem

Their plan is to have a base in Spain for operations, so they wouldn't have to ship the cars all that way, but I agree it does seem a bit daft (and time-consuming) shifting parts all that way to put onto the car.

I don't know if they're planning on having a manufacturing facility in Spain though, perhaps they plan to finalise the designs in the US, then manufacture them in Spain.

Given that Renault had to fly a new floor out on Flavio's private jet this year though, it does seem to put them behind the others before they have even started!

Zed's Dead, Baby, Zed's Dead...

Does Marsellus Wallace look like a bitch!?

On a more serious note - though what could be more serious than a heart attack? (See what I did there?) - I'm going to take these reports with a grain of salt. It could just be that USF1 are operating on a different schedule to everyone else for whatever reason, but my main argument stems from the fact that there has been so much rumour and hearsay about the team that it's difficult for me to accept anything at face value. For instance, if they are planning on pulling out, why did thy establish a forward base in Alcaniz?

Does Peter Windsor look like a bitch!?

I have doubts as to if USF1 will make the grid in 2010. It felt like the Speed report with Steve Matchet did more to raise questions in my book then to quash them regarding the viability of USF1. 5 guys sitting in a blank office staring at "Generic CFD" models on the computer screens, Peter Windsors blank office with one single picture of Jim Clark on the wall, and then a shot of a 5 Axis machine milling something out of aluminum. Really? That is all USF1 has to show?? The "60" strong workforce are contract players working month to month, the building is rented and came with the machinery as it is the old Joe Gibbs Nascar teams headquarters, they have not finalized a deal with Cosworth, they have not got their hands on the McLaren standard ecu, no crash testing has begun on any components, and Peter Windsor was THE ONLY TEAM PRINCIPLE who wants to be allowed to sell his teams grid spot in F1? That all adds up to something a little fishy in my book. Now whether it is rank is another matter. I guess time will tell if Windsor, Anderson and Hurley are trying to turn a reported "$20M" investment (from Hurley) into a $40M payoff courtesy of BMW-Saubers new owners, Qadbak. I am not ruling that out just yet......

and what have you seen form Manor or Campos?

B. Senna has visited Dallara to take his measures for his seat and cockpit.
An event at Murcia will take place at November 10th, when the Brazilian will be officially presented to the media and his team mate will be announced.

And with regards to that FOTA meeting. It's only Campos and USF1 of the 4 new teams that is listed as members of the working groups (and only Campos have their logo on the front page). So Lotus and Manor potentially was not present at that FOTA meeting.

good, do you also have a video of their facilities so I can find something that is out of wack and criticize.
how about Manor?

I am not sure about any of these new teams until they show up at testing in February! Ross Brawn has doubts about USF1 and has voiced them. I think he knows a little bit more about how to run a F1 team than anyone posting on this board. If he voices doubts about Manor, Lotus and Campos then I will also have to think these outfits are in trouble. BMW-Sauber will be on the grid in 2010, now whether they take Toyota's spot, or one of these "new" teams spots remains to be seen....I am hoping that team USF1 is legit and makes the grid. I live in the US and would love the exposure that would bring, and hopefully get a race back here in the US. Not running any American drivers, or trying to re brand a Cosworth lump as Cadillac or Ford hurts this teams viability in the US market place. Danica Patrick should have been at the top of Windsors list if he was serious about this entry as her exposure alone would have guaranteed major sponsorship and interest in the team here, and around the world. Her talent level dictates she would be the 2nd driver, but who cares? Put a great driver with her and you have a well funded team with massive exposure. That was a no brainer in my book. But now Windsor is saying no American will drive for this team? Americans will not tune in to support the USF1 team as anticipated without some American talent behind the wheel. It is major reason why F1 has dismal support here, is not televised on a real network channel and we have no race to attend. Now put an Andretti, Rahal or Danica in the car and you will get Americans to tune in to see how the US fares against the worlds best.

he is a euro snob.. Are you one too?

The Gibbs shop was empty when USF1 moved in and some renovations were performed to accommodate USF1. The machine tools came new from Haas CNC and were not part of the Gibbs shop. More professional level race cars are built in the Mooresville area than in all of the UK and Europe combined. It's interesting that all the hand wringing about if a car can be built in a particular location is coming from people that are poorly informed as to the capability of the industry in that area. As for the working month to month claim, except for high level management/executive/technical and those with collective bargaining agreements most people not only in motorsport but in the workforce in general in the US are employed on an "at will" basis. That means they can be fired (or hired) at any time for virtually any reason. I think that some have a difficult time getting their heads around the commercial and cultural difference of the industry over here. If for some reason they don't make it to Bahrain it won't be because it was some elaborate scam but rather than they just weren't up to the task.

Manor? I have no idea at all. The most suspicious entry, I'd say. There's something fishy about Virgin involvement.

Campos' facilities or Dallara's facilities?

He is probably the greatest motorsports engineer that there has ever been

Multiple titles at Benetton, Ferrari, Brawn GP

If he has doubts people should take them seriously

did you see this one..
http://www.motorlandaragon.com/

There's something fishy about Virgin's position, yes, there always is with Branson. I beleive the Manor team are well geared up and capable of delivering, nothing suspicious about them at all. Obviously the Virgin money matters, if Branson p**ses them about I'll not forgive him.

that does not make him incapable of being a euro snob..
And do you want to know why I said this? is because he read a German source who's spends their entire time bashing the USf1 team and he immediately has something to say about it but he makes to reference to Manor for example, a team that is at the moment a mystery.

Yes, I was one of the first to report it here.
Indeed, I've said it was quite a bold move.

See?