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Full Version: Will USF1 make it to the 2010 grid? (merged)
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CONOSUR
It appears that Schmidt spracht aus seinmem Arschloch.




cool.gif
wj_gibson
QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 9 2009, 10:01) *
In my view, Schmidt really has NO credibility when it comes to his views on Williams and USF1 anymore.


What, because you find his fairly innocuous comments a threat? Grow a thicker skin.
wj_gibson
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 8 2009, 17:17) *
and if that happens, so what?...
and that goes for the other teams as well.. If they failed due to lack of funding its not their fault really.. finding sponsors in these tough times is not that simple.


Well, it was a tough time to find sponsors when they announced the creation of the team as well - and that was before any effort on Mosley's part to implement a draconian budget cap, so Windsor clearly felt that he (and his associates) could still drum up sufficient monies to fund the team to the tune of well over £40mn if necessary.

When was the last real new privateer effort along the lines of USF1 (i.e. no manufacturer relationship, and not building on an existing junior formula team)? The '97 Lola effort? You can hardly argue that the economic conditions in 2008-09 are more ripe for privateer success than those that pertained in 1997. I do hope that Windsor did not blithely think that sticking "US" in the team's name would somehow bring sponsors flocking.

Of the new teams, only the Litespeed/Lotus effort strikes me as being truly prepared to run an F1 team at this point in time. I suspect the others are waiting either for some long-anticipated major investment to kick in (as in the Manor/Virgin case) or else actively trying to offload the entry to someone else (as Campos is rumoured to have been doing). USF1, for all the razzmatazz, IMO looks like a complete anachronism run by daydreamers. That Speed TV clip only cements that view in my mind.

I think it is shameful that the FIA awarded entries to this lot (Litespeed excepted) above and beyond serious racing companies such as Lola and Prodrive, both of whom already had 2010 prototypes at an advanced stage of development at the time the final entries were announced.
DFV
QUOTE (wj_gibson @ Nov 10 2009, 09:01) *
What, because you find his fairly innocuous comments a threat? Grow a thicker skin.


I think you fail to get my point....

Where did I say I felt threatened by Schmidts comments?

If you care to read my arguments about why I don't think he is credible with regards to USF1 I think you will see that I base my opinion on his unfounded and derogatory comments about the team.

Some of Mr Schmidts comments about USF1:

A laughing stock/laughing matter
(He just calls them that, he doesn't give a reason..)

A nuisance
(Again, he just writes that without any reasoning...)

Naive to think that they can build a F1 car in Charlotte
(Again, based on no factual arguments from Schmidt at all. And he fails to mention that Sauber set up a F1 team in Hinwil, Switzerland with very little motorsport suppliers nearby... Charlotte is the motorsport capital of the US with lots of high tech facilities and with one of the best wind tunnels available)

Claimed they have not done any crash tests.
(Apparently without speaking to anyone in the team. Anderson and Windsor have, when asked by other journalists, said that they have indeed performed crash tests (successfully).)

Claims that they resisted to vote against the possibility to sell their F1 slot.
(Again he appears to do so without any factual evidence. Windsor and Anderson, when asked by other journalists, states that they have never been present at a FOTA meeting where this has been a topic, and have never voted in any such matter. They have, together with Williams and others, raised concerns about 14 teams on the grid)

Claims that they are just trying to make money on their entrance.
(Again, he appears to speak without any factual information. The FIA hve confirmed that USF1 have paid their admittance fee for 2010. Windsor and Anderson have said, when asked by other journalists, that the team is not for sale under any circumstances. USF1 was also the only of the three original new teams that stated that they would enter without the proposed budget cap. Schmidt also fails to come up with a prospective buyer for the team. Who wants to buy a place on the grid for next season at this time of the year? The team have also bought some of Brawns old trucks and are refurbishing them)

The above, for me, makes it very hard to take anything Schmidt writes about USF1 seriously. He might be correct in everything he writes, but he doesn't supply any factual evidence and it all comes across as just sour grapes from someone who wants the team to fail. Not to mention that it's only AMuS and Schmidt that is the source of the bad press recently. Other German media reports more balance reviews, they make Scmidt/AMuS look biased/prejudiced against USF1.

This is why I don't give him any credibility. Not because I feel threatened by him. roflmao.gif
DFV
QUOTE (wj_gibson @ Nov 10 2009, 10:39) *
Well, it was a tough time to find sponsors when they announced the creation of the team as well - and that was before any effort on Mosley's part to implement a draconian budget cap, so Windsor clearly felt that he (and his associates) could still drum up sufficient monies to fund the team to the tune of well over £40mn if necessary.

When was the last real new privateer effort along the lines of USF1 (i.e. no manufacturer relationship, and not building on an existing junior formula team)? The '97 Lola effort? You can hardly argue that the economic conditions in 2008-09 are more ripe for privateer success than those that pertained in 1997. I do hope that Windsor did not blithely think that sticking "US" in the team's name would somehow bring sponsors flocking.

QUOTE
So do I


Of the new teams, only the Litespeed/Lotus effort strikes me as being truly prepared to run an F1 team at this point in time. I suspect the others are waiting either for some long-anticipated major investment to kick in (as in the Manor/Virgin case) or else actively trying to offload the entry to someone else (as Campos is rumoured to have been doing). USF1, for all the razzmatazz, IMO looks like a complete anachronism run by daydreamers. That Speed TV clip only cements that view in my mind.

QUOTE
That is your opinion, which you are entitled to of course. But it still seems strange to pour so much money into a daydream. Buying trucks, setting up a factory in the US and having a deal with a European facility as their European base. On the other hand, I would also have preferred to see something that resembled a car (tub) when Speed TV visited the factory. At the moment I choose to take their claims at face value, also taking into consideration the FIA inspection etc.


I think it is shameful that the FIA awarded entries to this lot (Litespeed excepted) above and beyond serious racing companies such as Lola and Prodrive, both of whom already had 2010 prototypes at an advanced stage of development at the time the final entries were announced.

QUOTE
The argument against Prodrive is that they failed to enter in 2007 or 2008 (and 2009?) when they had been granted a entry by the FIA. No matter how good their prospect was, that would be a major argument against them. They did not help themselves in that regard. They might have good arguments with regards to not being able to compete as a McLaren "customer team" etc. But the fact remains, they did not show up last time they got a grid place.

With Lola, I don't know why they did not make it. Their last effort into F1 was a major disaster and embarrasment for them and F1, but that was a long time ago and with different management.
bonneville
The problem with this secret policy:

QUOTE
Like all teams, we currently have our heads down and we’re getting on with it. We’re not spending every working minute telling the world exactly what we’re doing


Is that it contradicts what he was saying back in September :

QUOTE
We had decided that if we were going to be based in Charlotte, in the heart of Nascar country, then obviously we would have to play to the fans, as Nascar does. We would make our factory “fan friendly,” with easy access to the public, and, with a television production facility in the factory, we would enable Formula One fans to follow the progress of the car from conception to completion.


No wonder fans expect to be copied on all steps of the process, from conception to completion...

The problem is thus Pete Windsor's poor communication skills...

wave.gif
DFV
More people that is questioning AMuS reporting...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/287376-...-in-trouble-yet



And a interview with Peter Windsor (soundfile):

http://www.formula1blog.com/2009/11/09/f1b...-peter-windsor/
highdownforce
Cosworth confident on new teams.
QUOTE
"There has been a lot of rubbish said about the new teams recently, but nothing we have seen has given us any cause to have any doubts. We're very pleased to be involved with teams that have a very good chance of causing a surprise or two over the course of next year."
BMW_F1
QUOTE (wj_gibson @ Nov 10 2009, 14:39) *
I think it is shameful that the FIA awarded entries to this lot (Litespeed excepted) above and beyond serious racing companies such as Lola and Prodrive, both of whom already had 2010 prototypes at an advanced stage of development at the time the final entries were announced.

let me sum up your post.. You are pissed off because Prodrive and Lola, both British teams, are not in but USF1 is . Prodrive and Lola failed when they were audited by Deloitt, their business proposal was not as strong..
highdownforce
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 10 2009, 14:38) *
let me sum up your post.. You are pissed off because Prodrive and Lola, both British teams, are not in but USF1 is . Prodrive and Lola failed when they were audited by Deloitt, their business proposal was not as strong..

Worth-noting is the case of Epsilon Euskadi vs Campos.
Both Spanish teams, Campos had nothing but Dallara, EE had everything 'in-the-house'.
And Campos had the place on the grid granted.
BMW_F1
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Nov 10 2009, 21:49) *
Worth-noting is the case of Epsilon Euskadi vs Campos.
Both Spanish teams, Campos had nothing but Dallara, EE had everything 'in-the-house'.
And Campos had the place on the grid granted.

i don't have those details I am sorry so I cannot agree with you blindingly.
highdownforce
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 10 2009, 14:56) *
i don't have those details I am sorry so I cannot agree with you blindingly.

I'm not asking for agreement, I've just said that specifically this case had a surprising ending.

Because Adrian Campos have stated that his plans were for a budget cap series, and that without the budget cap his GP Team almost came to a halt.
Epsilon in the other hand made a new attempt when Lotus filled the 13th position.
When there was no doubt that no budget cap would take place.

If USF1 had a better a business plan than Prodrive, that's another thing (I guess the Americans had), but about the choice between the Spanish Teams we're allowed to have doubts on it.
DFV
The Cosworth interview is good reading and clearly hints at some of the stuff that Auto Motor und Sport has been writing, which is branded as "rubbish".

The audio interview ( http://www.formula1blog.com/2009/11/09/f1b...s-peter-windsor ) is also something I would really recommend take the time to listen to. It's 49 minutes but really interesting.

There are some intersting comments about AMuS and they are basically saying that AMuS is writing lies... And AMuS has never talked with, or interviewed, Windsor about the stuff they write. Also suggestion that AMuS reports the way they do because of political issues over the Sauber situation.

Factory doing double shifts manufacturing now etc.

Really interesting.
sailqueen
From that same audio interview posted above, I found a couple of points that Peter made of interest.

They currently employ 55 people full time. If you add to that the number of people working with their partners for the CFD and wind tunnel, that number is about double. They are set to add add another 30-40 people on the operational side in Dec-Jan. Obviously they don't need some of those people yet plus some are coming from other teams and can't join before January.

I am of the opinion that at this time it is premature to rule them out or on the grid come Bahrain but I am leaning toward them being there.
BullHead
Well I guess Mr Galagher's assessment puts a few people to bed here, or their thoughts anyway. I mean, we're not going to dismiss his view are we? His career and company relies on correctly monitoring the teams' positions.
wj_gibson
QUOTE (BMW_F1 @ Nov 10 2009, 16:38) *
let me sum up your post.. You are pissed off because Prodrive and Lola, both British teams, are not in but USF1 is . Prodrive and Lola failed when they were audited by Deloitt, their business proposal was not as strong..


Let's be quite clear that I don't give two hoots about the nationality of teams, so I'd advise you not to waste your time trying to flog that horse.

We know nothing about how the FIA selected the teams, nor what Deloitte's findings were, nor how much weight the FIA gave those findings in selecting the teams. So you cannot know anything about the credibility of the business proposals of any of them.

I have always strongly suspected that a significant part of their being chosen (other than signing with Cosworth) was that they were viewed as less likely to gravitate toward FOTA than Lola and Prodrive (both of whom employ significant numbers of people with recent F1 experience) were. "Cleanskins" to use the parlance of our time.
BullHead
Maybe not then....
BMW_F1
QUOTE (wj_gibson @ Nov 10 2009, 23:25) *
Let's be quite clear that I don't give two hoots about the nationality of teams, so I'd advise you not to waste your time trying to flog that horse.

We know nothing about how the FIA selected the teams, nor what Deloitte's findings were, nor how much weight the FIA gave those findings in selecting the teams. So you cannot know anything about the credibility of the business proposals of any of them.

I have always strongly suspected that a significant part of their being chosen (other than signing with Cosworth) was that they were viewed as less likely to gravitate toward FOTA than Lola and Prodrive (both of whom employ significant numbers of people with recent F1 experience) were. "Cleanskins" to use the parlance of our time.


I tend to stay away from conspiracy crap which is what this is and stick to the truth which has been presented.
Mia 01
I would like to have them on the grid next year. I´m curious about there effort.

But if I got a choice between them and Toyota, I would keep the latter.
DFV
QUOTE (Mia 01 @ Nov 10 2009, 19:47) *
I would like to have them on the grid next year. I´m curious about there effort.

But if I got a choice between them and Toyota, I would keep the latter.


Well, Toyota made that decision for us...

I am actually more excited about the new teams than I was about Toyota. It never seemed like a passionate team to me. More like a big faceless and emotionless bureaucratic management exercise. But that's just my personal opinion. I'm genuinely sorry for all those made redundant by Toyotas decision to pull out of F1.
Captain Tightpants
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Nov 11 2009, 03:49) *
Worth-noting is the case of Epsilon Euskadi vs Campos.
Both Spanish teams, Campos had nothing but Dallara, EE had everything 'in-the-house'.
And Campos had the place on the grid granted.

Go and take a look at how their results have been shaping up: Campos has fielded as successful GP2 team in the past; his was one of the four that a GP2 driver had te best chance of success with (the others being ART Grand Prix, iSport and Racing Engineering). Epsilon Euskadi, on the other hand, have had some success a few years ago when whty ran Robert Kubica in the WSR, but they've been in freefall ever since. Their Le Mans car might have looked ood, but it was horrendously slow; the Honda in last year's race. They didn't return for 2009. Euskadi's problem is that they can't sit still long enough to see one project through; if it goes pear-shaped, they abandon it.
bond
The president of the FIA Senate has revealed that USF1, the new American Formula One team for 2010, has lodged its €309,000 entry fee to contest next year's world championship.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news...112113845.shtml


Guess they'll make it....
One

I assume that Peter Windsor can make anything sounds reasonable and great, despite any facts he know of.


The USF1 factory looked like oil-less in the video interview with Speedtv and the 5 ax milling machine was milling something gigantic aluminum parts with many many bolts and so on, It looked like a part of a ship engine. ( ! )

The first Cad screen showed the real time simulation of airflow on the old Apple Mackintosh 24 inch screen and I donno why USF1 opt for purchasing a second hand computer screen for a visual presentation.

Windsor"s office had a pile of unmounted bookshelf.

I can imagine that Video image do not lie.

Er...
sir jackie walker
TS reports rumours "from Japanese sources" that while Toyota F1 team will not be sold, Toyota may be selling their TF109 chassis, and that USF1 are interested. Just a rumour, of course, but if true, Windsor and Anderson aren't doing too well with their own chassis... But with a rebranded Toyota-Cosworth they'd probably be the most succesful newcomers - if we don't count Sauber in.
highdownforce
QUOTE (Captain Tightpants @ Nov 10 2009, 20:58) *
Go and take a look at how their results have been shaping up: Campos has fielded as successful GP2 team in the past; his was one of the four that a GP2 driver had te best chance of success with (the others being ART Grand Prix, iSport and Racing Engineering). Epsilon Euskadi, on the other hand, have had some success a few years ago when whty ran Robert Kubica in the WSR, but they've been in freefall ever since. Their Le Mans car might have looked ood, but it was horrendously slow; the Honda in last year's race. They didn't return for 2009. Euskadi's problem is that they can't sit still long enough to see one project through; if it goes pear-shaped, they abandon it.

That could be the reason, for example.
But my point is that it was debatable.
DFV
QUOTE (One @ Nov 12 2009, 12:54) *
I assume that Peter Windsor can make anything sounds reasonable and great, despite any facts he know of.


The USF1 factory looked like oil-less in the video interview with Speedtv and the 5 ax milling machine was milling something gigantic aluminum parts with many many bolts and so on, It looked like a part of a ship engine. ( ! )

The first Cad screen showed the real time simulation of airflow on the old Apple Mackintosh 24 inch screen and I donno why USF1 opt for purchasing a second hand computer screen for a visual presentation.

Windsor"s office had a pile of unmounted bookshelf.

I can imagine that Video image do not lie.

Er...


Well, I didn't think it looked anything like something that was part of a ship engine to be honest.

Your arguments about the computer screens etc. have been discussed at length earlier in this post. I am no expert and cannot make any comments about that other than that some, seemingly well informed on the subject, disagrees with your view.

That his office didn't have the bookshelfs mounted isn't really any clear indication of how the team are doing with preparation of the car... (Windsor lives in Germany and according to the radio interview only visits the factory occasionally).
One
Fair enough, th ecylinder elements that were on 5 ax milling machine could have been the Mold for the front upright,... but it was that big... I saw the front wheel of the car looked sporting much smaller wheel than the rear ones,... in anyways i will check up more posts from of this thread. I assue it is about page 12 onwards, and con is Captain and Pro is...
WebBerK
QUOTE (bond @ Nov 12 2009, 10:46) *
The president of the FIA Senate has revealed that USF1, the new American Formula One team for 2010, has lodged its €309,000 entry fee to contest next year's world championship.

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news...112113845.shtml


Guess they'll make it....

clap.gif
That's great news...
Now they only need more $30M to hire the crew and pay all logistic expenses for year one, plus engines, plus material for the chassis, tires, etc. stoned.gif
DFV
QUOTE (WebBerK @ Nov 12 2009, 18:45) *
clap.gif
That's great news...
Now they only need more $30M to hire the crew and pay all logistic expenses for year one, plus engines, plus material for the chassis, tires, etc. stoned.gif


Maybe you should tell the team that. I am sure they didn't think about that before eek.gif

You should start doing consultancy work for the new F1 teams clap.gif

They only have 50-60 people working full time, have bought some of Brawns trucks and are fabricating parts. You should call them and let them know that they need money to run the team as well, not to mention freight etc.

roflmao.gif
WebBerK
QUOTE (DFV @ Nov 12 2009, 17:00) *
You should start doing consultancy work for the new F1 teams clap.gif

We all do that in the forum, in the form of brainstorming. clap.gif
loki
QUOTE (WebBerK @ Nov 12 2009, 17:45) *
Now they only need more $30M to hire the crew and pay all logistic expenses for year one, plus engines, plus material for the chassis, tires, etc.


As part of the new entry program FOM will give all the new teams US$10 million in cash subsidies plus pay the team's cost of transport for two cars and 10,000 kilos of cargo to every race.
WebBerK
QUOTE (loki @ Nov 12 2009, 23:47) *
As part of the new entry program FOM will give all the new teams US$10 million in cash subsidies plus pay the team's cost of transport for two cars and 10,000 kilos of cargo to every race.

Ughhh... thanks I needed that. drunk.gif

Eventhough, another issue is all four new entrants in the same season disputing all those new sponsers among themselves and Williams.
Clatter
QUOTE (Phucaigh @ Nov 13 2009, 21:24) *


roflmao.gif roflmao.gif Very cruel.
sblick
I think buying the Toyota plans would be genius. An ok car but a very good baseline. You buy a lot of knowledge and skip mistakes you may have made. These plans or cars are surely worth it for a new team. Hire Jarno and go for it. Jarno could do a Nationwide schedule and F1, just like Danica biggrin.gif
Mandzipop
QUOTE (Phucaigh @ Nov 13 2009, 21:24) *


I've only seen episode 1 before. They are brilliant.

roflmao.gif roflmao.gif roflmao.gif
DFV
Excerpts from an interview with Ken Anderson (full interview to appear later this week at RacinToday):

http://www.racintoday.com/archives/12092

QUOTE
On the road again: We visited with US F1 owner and designer Ken Anderson last week at the team’s shops in Huntersville, N.C., where Anderson was in the middle of preparations for the US F1 debut at the Formula One season opener next March in Bahrain. The following are some excerpts from a brief, informal conversation with a very relaxed Anderson. A full profile on Anderson will appear this week at RacinToday.

RacinToday: How concerned are you about passing the FIA’s mandated crash tests?

Anderson: “It’s actually quite easy to pass if you design the parts right. Whatever piece it is, if it weighs ten pounds it will easily pass. But if it weighs nine pounds, eight pounds… . Toyota had 800 people and they had entire departments trying to save an ounce here and an ounce there.

“If you try to save 10 ounces so you can put more tungsten in the bottom of the car, that’s a good thing. We’re not going to lose the world championship next year because our crash structures are four ounces more than Ferrari’s. It doesn’t behoove us to go to the last gram.

“We’re not going to spend six months crashing 50 noses.”

RacinToday: Nick Wirth was very successful designing the Acura ARX-02a using nothing but CFD. But he had two seasons with other Acura prototypes in the American Le Mans Series as a starting point. What results do you anticipate using CFD without having done a car previously?

Anderson: “We have some really good guys with current F1 knowledge. One of the guys we have (Steve Brown) was the head of R&D at Brawn and he got to touch every part of the car. It’s not like we’ve been doing this in a vacuum. The other thing is, the specification of the Formula One cars the boundaries of where it can and can’t be is far tighter than it used to be. It all comes from the Senna crash and the safety zones. That really dictates the shape of the car. You’ve got to be fairly creative like Adrian Newey was last year with Red Bull car to come up with a shape that’s much different.”

RacinToday: Given the fact he had a small team and no manufacturer backing, what Ross Brawn and his team have done this season in winning the F1 driving and constructor championships must give you some encouragement.

Anderson: “I was working with Ross at Williams in the early 1980’s. That’s when I first met (current partner) Peter Windsor. I was working for Penske (Racing Shocks) on shock stuff and I would go over to the wind tunnel every winter. I met this wind tunnel machinist, mechanic all-around good guy named Ross Brawn. We both come from a very similar hands-on approach.”

RacinToday: What are your thoughts about building an F1 car in America for the first time since Dan Gurney built his Eagles in the 1960’s?

Anderson: “I grew up in the Sixties. When you look at the 1960’s and 1970’s, it was a very interesting time. We went to the moon. The cars went from skinny tires to rear engines, turbos, fat tires, wings, you know. It was fantastic.

“A.J. Foyt, Dan Gurney, Roger Penske, Frank Williams. All these guys came from that era, Max (Mosley) and Bernie (Ecclestone), they’re interesting guys. I feel very priviledged to have worked with those guys. I’m very proud to be part of Formula 1. I’m certainly not the only guy to do it to have worked on both sides of the pond enough to understand what it takes and go for it. There’s way smarter guys out there than me.”
DFV
Full interview with Anderson at Racin Today:

http://www.racintoday.com/archives/12144

FormerF1Driver
DFV you work for Cosworth. Spill the beans on the thirsty cosworths that have just been tested on the dynos.

Peter Windsor say: Mama Mia!
BiH
everything sounds good.....but in talks with jacque villeneuve, they couldn't find a more experienced recent driver like wurz to develop the car???
GIBF1
Any news on likely drivers ?

dank found something interesting on Jonathan Summerton's twitter

F1 here we come
FormerF1Driver
QUOTE (GIBF1 @ Nov 19 2009, 15:31) *
Any news on likely drivers ?

dank found something interesting on Jonathan Summerton's twitter

F1 here we come



Ive said it before and ill likely say it again with my tightpants on, Summerton dont cut the mustard. USF1 may build an ok car, but ok drivers they aint signing.

Peter Windsor Say: We have talks with liquidators.
showtime
rmac923
QUOTE (showtime @ Nov 19 2009, 12:13) *


Pechito!!! clap.gif
eurocardoc
Rumoured that there are USF1 personnel with a Cossie powered car in Daytona area for shakedown.......so the factory is short staffed this week.

Know anymore DFV?
BiH
are they even allowed to do that?
Clatter
QUOTE (BiH @ Nov 19 2009, 21:14) *
are they even allowed to do that?


Rules only say a team cannot test an F1 car.
V8 Fireworks
QUOTE (One @ Nov 12 2009, 12:54) *
The first Cad screen showed the real time simulation of airflow on the old Apple Mackintosh 24 inch screen and I donno why USF1 opt for purchasing a second hand computer screen for a visual presentation...

It's a friggin screen!? rolleyes.gif

Who cares.


The grunt in the supercomputer is what is important, they can use CRTs for how much difference it will make to how fast the car goes. smile.gif
V8 Fireworks
QUOTE (One @ Nov 12 2009, 12:54) *
The USF1 factory looked like oil-less in the video interview with Speedtv and the 5 ax milling machine was milling something gigantic aluminum parts with many many bolts and so on, It looked like a part of a ship engine. ( ! )


It could be part of a jig or a mould, it could even be a lightweight (because of air freight transportation) stand for storing tools on at the racetrack. Not everything is a component directly on the car you know! smile.gif
Mandzipop
I have to say, they are the most entertaining of the newbies. Day 6 was brilliant.


Looking forward to day 7 clap.gif

If they have anything to do with those cartoons then they will get my utmost respect. I know this is a serious thread but they are really good fun.
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