Here's hoping for a trouble free weekend for Rubens .

Not in F1, because F1 is about different cars with different strengths. The only true comparison you can make in F1 is between team mates in the same car.

It's just a general misconceptions, really. If one is going to make a point, one has to give a reason for it.

Yes, of course F1 is about what you say, and certain drivers excell at different tracks getting more out of their package, hence, making a difference, everyone knows this, what's wrong whit joo man?

You know this too, why are you giving me a hard time?

I might not be explaining it how you want, but what I'm saying is true, even if it's not coming out right in words.

Wouldn't that be interesting if Friday and Saturday were total washouts. No practise, Q moved to Sunday morning, couple of hours later and we are into the race.

Good for Red Bull as well with them running in engine conservation mode.

No. I'm saying that top class drivers are Alonso, Raikkonen and Hamilton.

Kubica and Heidfeld are far far away from being there.

I'd rate Heidfeld on Raikkonen's level


I'm not giving you a hard time at all, if it appears that way then I apologize

Of course, some drivers do better than others at different circuits, but the only real comparison is like I said between team mates in the same car, as each car in F1 is different. That's how it's always been in Grand Prix racing

No need to apologyze brotha!

I can respect your opinion that you like to make comparisons between drivers in the same car, it's an endless debate, all we can do is respect each other's points of view to keep it sane I tend to concentrate on other things to just driver talent. in car video, seeing them drive personally in F1 and other series, past experiences, lots of other good stuff, all these drivers are great! If you ever share a grid with any of them, it would be an honor to say you did that, really, some have a bit more flair, but they're all great! even the ones who get beaten

IMO it will be between Red Bull, Brown and Force India..

What is your problem? Why are you shooshing everyone what says something about McLaren, calling people 'fanboy' and other immature things, the thing your posts tell me you have nothing more and nothing less then fear and hate fom the Woking team ... And yes, i see McLaren doing just fine in Japan, deff. a lot better then BMW.

So its like all! teams are better then McLaren, thats quit a assumption.

Lol, you didnt forget:
Nick Heidfeld and Robert Kubica have been told they are now likely to face an engine change penalty in the closing stages of the season, after their BMW Sauber team discovered their broken power-units from Monza cannot be used again.

I'm seriously having a lauch with 'BMW will dominate the field in the following weekend'

Oke, lets make a bet?! ... Lets bet that McLaren will beat BMW to the finishline, i'm not saying McLaren is going to win the race, but Lewis should finish within the top 10 and thus beat BMW.

Sorry, this the end. We are comparing a guy that has never won a race to a WDC. There's no more discussion after that.

Force India will struggle to make into Q3 just because they don't have enough downforce. Their advantage is when the set-up is from medium to low downforce, because their drag-to-downforce ratio is the best on the grid.

But when DF level are high, they can't produce the same figures as the top teams, as we could see in Silverstone for instance (their major update was due in Silverstone).

And now you are telling people what they can do and cant do? ... Who do you think you are? Well, you are supporting a German team ... Its clear ...

The Mclaren wasn't even the 2nd best car on the tracks that you mentioned, Brawn and Ferrari were better, raikonen just did not show it because of his mediocre qualifying pace

I'm sure i can have my own opinion, so what if McLaren doesnt have a decent performance in suzuka, then i'll be wrong, it happened before, no big deal. I still think McLaren is not as useless in fast corners as they were at the start of the season, i don't expect them to win, but as i said it wouldnt surprise me to see a podium finish. Time will tell

Red Bull and Brawn domination. BMW and Raikkonen black horses. McLaren fighting only for small points.

I think aero down force plays a big part at this curcuit in turn 3, between turns 5 and 6 and then thru turn 7. Chassis balance and mechanical grip - especially between turns 1 & 3 is a big deal IMHO. Also, the main straight and the slightly curved straight leading to turn 7 are all very high speed straights...with a lot of aero down force might we expect those cars with brute power to accel?

Personally I feel some of the top contenders have an advantage at some key points but no one has an advantage everywhere. Mercedes power may prove really usefull but they may be buggered by Red Bull's handling fidelity so long as their engines hold together. Brawn...if they cannot get heat into their tires...

And, although I lover Ferrari, I think if they will manage to perform in the points it will be due to KERS

You've forgotten about Force India, Spa?
Won't they be running the same level of downforce as in Spa? Their car should be good there.
Although I don't see Sutil as able to repeat what Fisi did in Spa.

Well look at it this way. BMW was VERY quick around Spa. BMW was the SLOWEST car in Monaco, and their new aero package was such an improvement that their car went from being about the worst on tracks favoring mechanical grip to easily in top 10. So I don't think its unreasonable to think that they will be quick when they were quick on this type of track before AND have a massively improved aero package (with a much more efficient diffuser producing more downforce without much of a drag penalty).

Also Heidfeld is covered on engines, BMW said that when he got his penalty for being underweight and had to start last they put in a 9th engine and changed his gearbox, so now he has a 9th engine to use and already took his penalty for it.

Alot of people are mistaken in comparing Spa closely to Suzuka. Spa has two sectors where top speed outweighs cornering. Suzuka only has one. The time spent on on the straights at Suzuka over the whole lap is roughly comparable to the time spent going from La Source to Les Combes. That extra 15-20s going up to the bus stop at Spa makes alot of difference to aero requirements. If the Casio Triangle wasnt there maybe top speed would be more of a requirement but the track would be too dangerous. Suzuka is probably somewhere between Sepang, Turkey and Nurburgring for optimal downforce. So much time can be made on the main straight by getting an excellent exit out of the tricky spoon curve which requires higher DF and offsets the advantage of top speed with lower DF. 130R was flat last time F1 was there and probably will be in 09 but try running low DF in the race and you'll probably ruin the tyres and lose too much time in S1 and S2 where laptime is really acheived at Suzuka.

But how do you define which car is quicker?

Red Bull should dominate but I think Rubens will actually win this race, he always goes well at Suzuka. Ferrari will be back at their monzaish performance and unfortuneately us mclaren fans will have to hope to come away with a few points cos i think we will struggle massively here

Average result between the two cars seems fair to me

So 5th and 6th is better than 2nd and 10th for example.

To be extra sure compare qual position, best qual time and race laptime also.

Bookmakers favour Lewis:
(bet365)
Lewis 1:375 (now 1:4)
Vettel 1:4.3
Webber 1:8
Rubens 1:8 (now 1:10)
Button 1:8.5 (now 1:10)
Kimi 1:13 (now 1:15)
Sutil 1:15
Heikki 1:19
Alonso 1:21
Kubica 1:21
Heidfeld 1:21
Rosberg 1:26
Glock 1:51
Trulli 1:51

edit: changing odds

Suzuka is much higher downforce than Spa.

No sorries, no nothing. There is no end. What kind of fragile reasoning is that?

again changes
Lewis 1:375 --> 1:4 --> 1:4.5
Vettel 1:4.3 --> 4
Webber 1:8 --> 1:6.5
Rubens 1:8 --> 1:10
Button 1:8.5 --> 1:10
Kimi 1:13 --> 1:15
Sutil 1:15
Heikki 1:19
Alonso 1:21
Kubica 1:21 -->1:23
Heidfeld 1:21 -->1.23
Rosberg 1:26
Glock 1:51
Trulli 1:51

These bookmakers must be stupid or aware of a huge aerodynamical upgrade - that the rest of the world happened to miss - McLaren got between Spa and now.

Fear of a GP2 downforce level car????
Mclaren is the MOST PATHETIC car in high speed corners. In Spa the only car sliding the rear in the exit of Eau Rouge was Hamilton, and Eau Rouge is almost a straight now. MCLAREN DOWNFORCE = RIDICULOUS


As I said to the other guy, I won't bet about finish line results because Hamilton is a lucky boy and BMW has bad luck. But look what I will propose to the other guy below. It is open for you too.


You are right, we need to specify criterions.

I say BMW, other than mechanical failure(engine or whatever) or weather events like wet session, will be faster than Mclaren in Q2 and/or Q3(fuel corrected). If no problem occur to both drivers of each team, then it's possible to compare fairly the fastest BMW time and the fastest Mclaren time during each quali part.

What we will bet I don't know, you choose. I just want to friendly recommend to not bet because in Spa it was much less clear that Mclaren was still really bad in high speed corners and I was right, now imo only anormal circunstances(like rain) can make Mclaren beat BMW in qualifying.

I assume it's Brit bookmakers and that the odds reflect the market as well as what the bookies reckon are the respective chances of victory. Your casual Brit punter will still bet on Hamilton despite short odds and it being likely that the Mac will struggle in Suzuka because of a mix of nationalism and recent headlines from his win in Singapore. So they can set the odds crazy short (minimising their risk) whilst still getting plenty of bets laid, so maximising their likely return.

I just read some stuff and I'm not that confident anymore that BMW will fight for pole in Suzuka. I still think they will be much stronger than Mclaren but not strong enough for Red Bull.

I hope it only rains on Sunday.

McLaren will not be the fastest around here but I think they may challenge for podiums, or should I say, Hamilton will.

Ferrari will be nowhere again, only hope is that Kimi gets a good run in qualifying and can use KERS to boost himself up at the start.

Red Bull will be dominant, heavy aero track as always, Brawn will be there.

I don't think Button will secure enough points to win the title here, it shocked me in his words about not changing his approach although it does make sense as he has time with him but any other WDC would push it all the time.

What…push it like Lewis did in China 2007? Look what happened there – and what happened to his title hopes because of it.

Alonso definitely worth a flutter, might stick a tenner on him.

I think Nick Heidfeld could win this. I think the car is definitely improved, Nick seems pretty good in high-speed corners, is good in the wet and stays out of trouble most of the time.

Just wondering - will the track 'changes' make it faster or slower? Sorry if that sounds like a totally stupid question.

I think the 'track' (black stuff) wasn't changed, the facilities were? Or was it resurfaced?

It was resurfaced.

....that was pushing it on a different level, to me, Jenson just seems like he is not in it to even win or get on the podium. Not the best attitude for my liking.

I got webber for 1:10

The chances of that are 0. Friday for the last few days has looked (and still looks) very wet indeed. Saturday is uncertain. Sunday has been forecast to be dry for the last few days.

Though I'm pretty sure in 2007 they were talking about how it was supposed to be nicer on the Sunday and then I woke up and the race was in danger of getting washed away.

My impression is that he's in it to get as many points as possible from the weekend, if things are good and he scores highly then great, if things aren't going as well as he'd like then he'll aim to score as highly as possible, without taking any unnecessary risks in the process.

Which imo is exactly how he needs to approach things. No point recklessly try to get a win at all costs and crashing in the process.

You really think Jenson doesn't want to win the race? If the brawn is fast enough he will go for it, but not in some crazy lewis hamilton of 2007 way its not his style so why change now.

OK Alonzo, sigbet that Lewis will have a faster Q2 lap and faster fast lap during the race than at least one BMW OR that he will win the race. rain, red flags, freak accidents or washed out practice sessions nullify the bet.


P.S. Suzuka requires different downforce from Spa.

I was thinking exactly the same... Suzuka is his favourite track? bit of rain..

For your amusement, credit goes to www.danielmedeirosnoticias.blogspot.com

Button versus Barrichello at Suzuka

2000 - Button 5th - Williams & Rubens 4th -Ferrari
2001 - Button 7th - Benetton & Rubens 5th - Ferrari
2002 - Button 6th - Renault & Rubens 2nd - Ferrari
2003 - Button 4th - BAR & Rubens 1st -Ferrari
2004 - Button 3rd - BAR & Rubens DNF - Ferrari
2005 - Button 5th -BAR & Rubens 11th - Ferrari
2006 - Button 4th - Honda & Rubens 12th - Honda

Final score is 23 to 21 in Button's favour, but the best results belong to Barrichello.

IMO, looking at these results, Button will pave the way to clinch the title in Brazil.

So these guys have yet to drive an F1 car around Suzuka:

Lewis Hamilton
Heikki Kovilainen
Timo Glock
Kazuki Nakajima
Romain Grosjean
Sebastien Buemi
Jamie Algersuari

And Vettel ans Sutil both havent raced there in an f1 car but have tested there. Only Hamilton and Vettel are likely to get through to Q3 IMO.

I cant wait for the race. Dont think its gonna be too excititing but im glad just to see Suzuka back on the calendar. Its an amazing track, should never have been replaced with Fuji!!!!!!

Glock raced in 2004 for Jordan.