It appears Badoer is now on the market for 2010.

His sudden availability will no doubt make all teams revisit their plans.

I feel sorry for the guy, honestly, he was humiliated and it seems also lost his regular job (Ferrari didn't renew him as a test driver either)

the lotus story on autosport talks of the 13th team - surely they mean 12th.

and why not buy bmw and call it lotus anyway?

and with fisi mooted as new ferrari ambassador, might schumi even take over bmw, with say kimi, kubica and ferrari engines?

why 12th? did anybody aside from BMW quit?

This was a casual conversation and this is not how recuiting is done. I'm sure you know that.

because i thought 11 teams are entered, and bmw might under new ownership or some different group entirely might get the spot bmw should have filled.

so why 13th. are bmw as whatever they may be, confirmed and a whole new spot is now available since new concorde?

13 teams have entered for next year.

12 have signed Concorde.

BMW has entered as something along the lines of TBA-TBA for team name and engine, and it will be up to the FIA as to whether or not they accept their entry, and indeed that of whoever saves the team.

That's why the 13th slot has gone to tender again, so that the FIA has somebody to put into the 13th slot if BMW don't find a buyer or if the FIA is unhappy with whoever ends up purchasing the team.

9 current teams and 3 new teams are entered, there are 2 available grid slots left vacant by bmw making a total of 13 teams or 26 cars

1.Williams
2.Toyota
3.Renault
4.Ferrari
5.McLaren
6.Force India
7.Red Bull
8.Toro Rosso
9.Brawn GP

10.Campos
11. USGP
12. Manor

So .. if Lotus (or whoever) enters they would be the 13th team ... I don't get the confusion

its simple - i'm ill and i can't count



thought we'd been limited to 12, but obviously not. used to be tho, didn't it?

Awww Hope you feel better soon

can't complain - got ill after travelling with kingfisher and FI to spa. awesome weekend. obviously.

but any thoughts on other questions (possibly equally deluded)?

- and why not buy bmw and call it lotus anyway?

and with fisi mooted as new ferrari ambassador, might schumi even take over bmw, with say kimi, kubica and ferrari engines?

This is not correct.
BmW is currently not entered.
They needed to re-enter along with the other 3 or 4 candidates.
The FIA now gets to pick.

Yeah, same.

He risked it all and has lost it all.

Sorry to be picky, but it actually is correct.

The BMW-Sauber F1 Team never actually withdrew their entry. The team may be up for sale and it may not make the grid, but it has put in an entry for next season and it is up to the FIA to accept it or dismiss it, as is the FIA's right with all entrants.

Rumor is BMW isn't selling cheap, and worse since it didn't sign the concorde the price doesn't come with a guaranteed slot for 2010. For schumi, lotus or ever Peter Sauber himself to takeover the team somebody's got to put up some serious upfront cash so ...it's not easy. Some have suggested Sauber is trying to do a deal with Petronas to revive the Sauber Petronas era (ie rebadged Ferraris) but can't say I m convinced tbh.

Though having said that, the FIA does seem to be taking their sweet time deciding on the last entrant so *maybe* they are waiting for something or somebody

With Fisi signing for Ferrari and apparently a reserve driver for 2010 and Massa getting back in 2010, it is now a straight toss between FA and KR for the other Ferrari seat. If the FA to Ferrari rumours are true then KR is out of Ferrari, unless we have an unexpected twist in the tale - like FA signing with Brawn GP with Santander as the major sponsor (that RB and Nick Fry were talking about).

no actually, they haven't signed the concorde = no slot for 2010

BMW is not entered for 2010.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/78284
They applied to enter.

I never said they did have a slot for next year. You're getting this all very confused.

What I said, which is correct, is that they have submitted an entry for next season which may or may not be accepted by the FIA.

I never said they'd signed the Concorde. That's a separate issue.

Just because they haven't signed Concorde doesn't mean they can't race. They have an agreement with the other teams which would allow them, or whoever buys them, to sign up as and when the team is saved.

Engel, Metz, this isn't my own bizarre opinion... it's Mario Thiessen's own words.

From interview in Valencia:

MT: We have signed up for next year, on Monday.

Q. Was the entry ever withdrawn officially?

MT: Not from our side but there was an agreement between all the teams and the FIA that after the signature of the Concorde Agreement, there would be a new entry form and all the entries would be renewed.

Q. Presumably the team is now competing against other would-be teams for that 13th slot so…

MT: We are now waiting for the decision. We have applied and it is for the FIA now to decide if we are accepted.

Q. Did you have to say what engine you'd use, or can that be left blank?

MT: We did not have to show an engine supply contract but we have given some indication. We are talking to some engine manufacturers and there would be a solution.

This is also incorrect.
The teams agreed to allow them every courtesy but it is NOT up to the teams.
At this point, the team is just another applicant for the last slot.

Ringo, I think you misunderstood the following.

"....there was an agreement between all the teams and the FIA that after the signature of the Concorde Agreement, there would be a new entry form and all the entries would be renewed."

That means all the teams that signed the Concord would be renewed

Q. Presumably the team is now competing against other would-be teams for that 13th slot so…

MT: We are now waiting for the decision. We have applied (like all other new teams) and it is for the FIA now to decide if we are accepted.

what you said is wrong is the Dr Mario passage you quote illustrates it
Specifically:
MT: Not from our side but there was an agreement between all the teams and the FIA that after the signature of the Concorde Agreement, there would be a new entry form and all the entries would be renewed.
MT: We are now waiting for the decision. We have applied and it is for the FIA now to decide if we are accepted.

ie they don't have an entry, they have applied for one, a fresh application submitted after concorde was signed. And they are competing with x other teams for this 1 entry

The courtesy they were afforded (by the teams and the FIA) was a 5 day extension on signing the concorde, to save them from losing their slots.

OK, OK... look, all I originally said was that 13 teams had subitted an entry for 2010 and that 12 had signed concorde. It was this comment that you stated was incorrect and yet by your own admission through the embolded parts of MT's quotes, you have shown that to be exactly the case.

Exactly what, from my original statement, was thus wrong?

Exactly five eighths of bugger all. So jump off your high horse.

it's not 13 teams that applied for entry, it's a lot more ... lola,epsilon,superfund blah blah blah all had applied. Not to mention myf1dream.com

What's wrong is you confuse the application with an entry, and confuse the rest of us along ... there are 12 confirmed entries for 2010 and a random number of applicants for the 13th available entry.

I am curious, what comes first, what is going to happen ;
- FIA to appoint the 13th F1 slot to a F1 Team first,
or
-BMW informing FIA it has a buyer, FIA controls new buyer BMW, and then appoints 13th F1 slot ?

Me too, Monty was very, very stupid to give him that as a 'reward'. Luca Badoer is a nice guy, totally set up for a fall. He was bound to say Yes, bound to be slow.

Which one has got more value for F1, a team that's been racing in F1 since '93 and managed to actually win or a fake team "Lotus", that hasn't got anything to do with the Lotus that Grahami Hill, Jim Clark, Ayrton Senna and Mika Häkkinen used to drive?

Thing is, this will not be the Team Lotus, but the Lotus Cars (as reported by Autosport).
Something that give us a new perspective. The old entry was based on the Team Lotus name, this one would be backed by Lotus Car backed by Proton backed by Petronas. Basically, another carmaker backed team.

For the way things are looking, Sauber's future will be a dark one.

Sorry, I got confused, so this is more real than the imaginary Lotus that applied earlier.

As reported by Autosport, yes.
Here is a good info about Team Lotus and Lotus Cars.

You think the real Team Lotus wasn't connected to Lotus the car manufacturer!?

Well the real Team Lotus and the Real Lotus of course were related, they were Chapman's babies.

Team Lotus today however is just a trademark owned by Hunt who leased the name to Litespeed and Lotus Cars is owned by Proton Cars so ... forget the real ones

If trademarks and ownership are an issue, then we may as well forget about Porsche, Rolls-Royce, Bugatti and Ferrari, too.

An opportunity for Di Resta at Force India I hope.

.....but he lived out his dreams. He wasn't going to carry on in his current role for long anyway, he was bound to retire and what better way than to go out on the back of 2 F1 races. No matter how slow he was, he can still say he competed against Alonso, Kimi and Lewis at Spa.

I'd tell my kids that story.

I actually agree. Nick would be an absolutely perfect #2 and would fit McLaren very well. Would be quick enough to get Lewis awake, but not quick enough to crack him or generate problems within the team. Would be mega consistent and grab many points for the WCC. He'd be far better at that role than Heikki.

Thing is, I don't think having a set #2 is their philosophy really. They'd rather have the 2 quickest guys available (specially if they're young and with potential) and let both drivers go at each others throats, in the belief that will motivate them more. Despite the Prost-Senna failure and the Hamilton-Alonso failure. That's why I believe Rosberg, Kubica and possibly Raikkonen are at the top of their list instead of Heidfeld.

As for Kimi vs Heidfeld, enough is enough. It's been a long time (8 years ago ffs) and we've been over this too many times.

I'll bet you would embellish it a bit and ban them from watching a recording of it.

On topic, Renault, sorry Ferrari's line-up at the start of next year could be Alonso/Fisi. Could anyone have even envisaged that in 2005/6?

Adam Carroll close to signing a deal to drive for Manor.

Source RTE (Irish state broadcaster)

I think Heidfeld is on Kimi's level and I think he could beat Hamilton

I hope so.

Well I hope he see it like that. Maybe he does. But he was quoted saying he was good enough to stay in the car for Monza, so he had some hopes dashed. His dream presumably was to drive a Ferrari in F1 well, is my thought, and it could have been better left as a dream, without all the fuss about how slow he is.

. About time he had a F1 seat.

I don't think of the Prost-Senna era as a failure.

Hamilton and Alonso... well at face value, YES, but in hindsight, it is tempting to say that the timing was probably not great.

Here we go....

NOTE: This is list is just some bullshit i made up. Believe it at your own risk.

Brawn GP
BGP-002 - Mercedes FO108X
1. Jenson Button
2. Kimi Raikkonen

Red Bull Racing
Red Bull RB6 – Renault RS27 / Mercedes FO108X
3. Sebastian Vettel
4. Mark Webber

Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro
Ferrari F2010 – Ferrari 056
5. Fernando Alonso
6. Felipe Massa (contracted until '10)

Vodafone McLaren Mercedes
McLaren MP4-25 – Mercedes FO108X
7. Lewis Hamilton (long-term contract)
8. Nico Rosberg

Panasonic Toyota Racing
Toyota TF110 – Toyota RVX-10
9. Jarno Trulli ???
10. Timo Glock ???

AT&T Williams
Williams FW32 – Toyota RVX-09 / Renault RS27
11. Nick Heidfeld
12. Nico Hulkenburg

Sauber Petronas F1 Team [Currently BMW]
Sauber C25 – Ferrari 056
13. ???
14. ???

ING Renault F1 Team
Renault R30 – Renault RS27
15. Robert Kubica
16. Romain Grosjean

Force India F1
Force India VJM03 – Mercedes FO108X
17. Adrian Sutil
18. Vitantonio Liuzzi

Scuderia Toro Rosso
Toro Rosso STR5 – Ferrari 056 / Renault RS27
19. Sébastien Buemi
20. Jaime Alguersuari

Team USF1
USF1 1 - Cosworth / Toyota RVX-10
21.Graham Rahal
22.???

Campos GP F1 Team
Campos 1 - Cosworth
23.Pedro de la Rosa
24. Vitaly Petrov

Manor GP F1 Team
Manor 1 - Cosworth
25. Adam Carrol
26. ???



Discuss.

+1

Prost-Senna was a success for McLaren, they together won loads of stuff for the team. But McLaren could afford to have an explosive pairing in 1988, dominant car, wcc in the bag with a few races to spare, and no spygate...

What's to discuss? You've pretty much made the same calls as someone else. If you'd put Alonso in a Toyota, Raikkonen in a Renault and Kubica in the Ferrari, then there might be something worth discussing.

Raikkonen in the Brawn is your only upsetting one, and there's no way it will happen. Kimi won't take a pay cut, Brawn can't afford him and they see no reason to take someone other than Button and Barrichello.

Why shouldn´t Kimi take a paycut?

It's not that he shouldn't, it's that he won't. Why would he willingly take one if there's a chance he could stay at Ferrari? People assume Alonso's signature is already on a Ferrari contract, but what happens if the FIA's investigation into Singapore results in a race ban? Or if Felipe Massa doesn't recover in time? While the Brawn is good, there's no guarantee it's going to stay that way. If they could say "Yes, we're going to produce a car that will win the championship in 2010" and can prove it, then sure: anyone would take a pay cut if it meant being at the front again. But Kimi would have to take a passive hit to his paycheck; he's on fifty-one million now, but I'd be surprised if Brawn could budget for seventeen. As it stands, there's no reason for Kimi to do it. He could go to Toyota on his current salary (or maybe take a minor cut) and could be competitive there. We've seen that the TF109 can be quick; they just need a driver to follow through on its potential. Raikkonen could be that man. But I think he'll try and stay at Ferrari if he can.

I think that Kimi will stay with Ferrari for 2010 at least, now that Ferrari has Fisi in. Alonso in Ferrari in 2010? I don't think so, not happening. Maybe 2011 when Kimi's and Massa's contract runs out.

But with this situation, I think Alonso might end up at Brawn. so here's my prediction list

Ferrari:
Kimi
Massa/Fisi (Alonso - but not happening)

McLaren:
Hami
Rosberg

Williams:
Nico Hulk.
Heikki

Renault:
Kubica
Romain

Brawn:
Button
Bari/Alonso

All speculation.

BTW when is Ferrari gonna announce its line-up? At Monza?