+1

I agree with you that Kimi is no team leader. But in my opinion the mechanics and all the other members of the team should be able to motivate themselves. For me it´s not the job of the driver.

Kimi can also do miracles when the car isn´t that good. Just look at his performances at the last 3 races and at Mclaren. Okay you will say that he didn´t have any benchmark. But I say that Massa also just got 1 podium this season, so I doubt that he would have done better.

I hope Kimi ends up with Lewis at McLaren... that would be fascinating.

But this whole notion of the "fastest man out there" is a bit silly. As fans, we base this kind of thing on our emotional impressions of drivers and their performances. The truth is, even if we had all the telemetry from all the teams it would be very difficult to determine who the "fastest" driver out there is (since except for teammates it would be an apples to oranges comparison). And even if we had a massive test session where every driver drove every car and then looked at that telemetry, we probably still wouldn't be able to definitively say that one guy is the fastest. A much more likely result would be that some drivers would be fastest in some cars (the ones that suited their style the best) and others would be fastest in other cars. You might be able to narrow it down to a group of 5 guys or something, but even then you might find that the outright fastest times were by a driver that wasn't included in that group (perhaps by a Jarno Trulli, for instance).

Of course, if we really knew who was faster than whom, then what would we all argue about on this BB?

i dont know how you can say that Massa is far superior than Kimi
If you analyze their performance 2008 they were very even.
Till everything started to go pear shape for Kimi in Canada when Hami ran into the back of him at the pits exist.
In France Kimi was leading the races easily till his exhaust started to fail. Even Massa admitted in the press conference that kimi was too fast.
and he was lucky to win the race from kimi due to the exhaust problem.
In china Massa had to rely on Kimi to give him second position.
I think Mclaren will try to get kimi if he is available
Because as they know how quick he and he is a proven race winner.

Exactly. Raikkonen did not have a benchmark in the last 3 races, and until his tragic accident Massa was better: The best non-Brawn and non-Red Bull in the WDC standings, 22 vs 10 points.

Well apart from Badoer. He is proven slow.

It is a done deal.

Ferrari wouldn't be trying to offload Raikkonen at such massive expense for any other reason.

Did Stefano call you? Or was it Luca?

I don't know, I sort of think Räikkönen has been better this year than he was in 2007 or especially in the latter half of 2008 (he was actually doing alright and even leading the WDC up until midway through the season, but I guess it's more convenient to gloss over that annoying fact and just say he's been woeful for the past 1.5 years) but the car's not a winner (OK, it is but you know what I mean) and people have already convinced themselves that he's a bit shit and think they can diagnose lost motivation through a tv screen so it doesn't matter what he does anymore. Considering the car, his qualifying form especially has been consistently good all season long and, as far as I can tell, most of the grid hasn't been racing any better. The man himself is mostly happy with what he's done this year - who are we to say he's been driving like a muppet?

Some midfield team could get lucky and find themselves a really, really good driver for next year. He's not the washed-up never-was/has-been some of you portray him as, and if someone could be persuaded to sign the guy, we'd get to see it. Just as long as it's not Renault...

What's your take on Ferrari trying to offload Raikkonen?

As I said, I don't like or dislike either driver particularly.

But the writing is on the wall.

Except for McLaren in 2007, which he de-motivated rather than motivated, and in the last 2 races of that year he wasn't pushing that hard anymore in the car.

Tifosi don't like Raikkonen because ... no passion.
Problem is they like Alonso less.

And I said Tifosi, not the internet Ferrari fans that started watching F1 3 years ago and suddenly know everything.

Funny to hear that from an internet fan who joined this forum... yesterday.

Two races where he finished in the podium and beating Hamilton. I'd like to know what would have happened if he'd have pushed I can understand you don't like how he is but putting in doubt that he did everything he could to win until the last race makes no sense to me.

You are right that there are many hints that Ferrari may kick him out. But until now this are just rumours started by the press. No one who is really involved in this story (Ferrari, Kimi, Alonso) did indicate that Alonso comes to Ferrari and Kimi has to leave. So I prefer to wait until they announce anything and don´t state it as a fact.

Is your 'view' based on facts or just what the lazy F1 media would like you to believe. (i.e. Kimi is lazy; Fernando is a great car developer; Jarno is terrible in the races; that driver overtook only because of KERS; etc...)??



And where has Alonso been in the past years? Developing his 2010 Ferrari? Working part time in Maranello to motivate the workforce, as apparently Kimi's efforts could only provide them with multiple race wins/championships..?

If he had pushed he would have been WDC. Raikkonen beat him badly in both races, Alonso was nowhere near him. Hamilton was actually significantly faster than Alonso in China, and with Alonso's experience in not cooking the tyres he should have been more than a match for Raikkonen in those wet conditions (where the MP4/22 was good). In Brazil, Alonso cruised to the finish way behind the Ferraris. Weak performances, probably because Alonso was paranoid that the mechanics had sabotaged his car and/or given him wrong tyre pressures.

Because this forum is the epicenter of Ferrari fans?

I had an account here when Mika/Michael were slugging it out, I think 2000 but I neither remember the account, password, nor what email I used to register 10 years ago. I joined because this thread was stupid ( http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=114186 ) but in the end decided not to post.

Maybe you should think if the fact of Lewis going faster and the fact of ruining his tires could be related. Do you really think McLaren had any option against Ferrari in Brazil? FFS how can anybody think Alonso didn't pushed at 100% when there were chances of winning the title? The motivation of a celebration in front of Ron Dennis must had been immense

Welcome aboard.


However in reply to your post a certain Michael Schumacher wasn't paticularly popular with the Tifosi from what I can gather. I wasn't a Ferrari fan at the time so I cant be completely sure and I dont know enough Ferrari fans either to ask. I started supporting Irvine in 98 I think it was, and I certainly didn't like Schumacher. However I stayed with Ferrari after Irvine left and have supported both of our drivers since. And yes by the end of 99 I was a big Schumacher supporter.

I dont want to see Kimi go but if Alonso brings something to Ferrari that works then I'll be happy with that. Drivers come and go but Ferrari always stays there. That is why I make a point of never disliking a driver because at some point they may end up in red. Also I have drivers I like a bit more and cross my fingers that at some point they may end up in red. That happened this week. Hoping for Vettel one day.

Its funny, I was looking on PF1 back to last years Singapore grand prix to try and remember what some of the post Piquet crash comments were, and there were a lot of threads which were identical about Alonso to Ferrari as there are now.

The only thing that makes it more credible this year is Santander. Oh yes I forgot, will Renault even be in F1 next year is now an unknown factor in this.

Only one driver at Ferrari has been confirmed and that is Massa but if he is not fit we know it will be Fisi. The other is anyones guess between Kimi and Alonso.

Especially in Mclaren. Without Flavio support it will be really interesting to see him on Kimi's place in another top team.

Looks like someone repackaged an old rumor adding a few more tidbits to make it look genuine

Well atleast I brought you back to this board . Wellcome back!

There is great evidence to support your view, I mean look at what Alonso has achieved in Renault the last two season, pushing them all the way to glory and a WMSC hearing

I don't think Alonso shows enough loyalty to motivate a team, except that the team knows that whatever they can produce he will get 100% of the performance out of it. With Kimi then IMO the team can produce a faster, nervier car and he can drive it to its limits. Only Kimi and Lewis can drive such a car I reckon and that's why I really want to see Kimi at McLaren.

Ferrari for me have produced a car for Massa which is easy to drive at the limit, and that's why Felipe and Kimi have been close, but I don't believe Massa is as fast as Kimi if each has their ideal car. Nor do I think Fernando is quite as fast as Lewis and Kimi, looking at his onboards and how forcibly he steers the car into a corner, where on Kimi and Lewis' onboards they create the impression that the car 'wants' to turn in and go through the corner, so you hardly notice the steering.

So it will be good for all concerned, and us , if Fernando does go to Ferrari, where he will be great for them, and Kimi goes to Mac.

wtf???



he did, last year.

one thing is for sure: Kimi got a great management team... shrewd negotiators...

I doubt it, and I'm not saying that the tiffosi love Alonso, but less than Kimi, I doubt it. Wait till Alonso win some races, speak Italian and kiss the Ferrari logo.

Tifosi love drivers that love Ferrari, not drivers that see Ferrari as a car that's faster than the rest and can win in it and a team that can pay them more than the other teams. Schumacher had the same problem at the start of his Ferrari days. Walk around Monza in 2 weeks, you 'll still see Alesi banners.

But tifosi don't sign driver contracts, Luca does.

if i understood correctly, just imagine, nando winning a GP and kimi getting 1mln. Euro
this whole thing is a deal breaker for me. But it wud be just 'ok' only if kimi and mclaren agree for a contract of 2010

Well, looking on the quali duels and compare with 2008 - Kimi did Massa this year. Not his fault two times when Massa got points he DNF because of the reliability. And season didn't over, development frozen and Kimi get from 3 races 24 points, best of all others. It's a fact.

We don't know how it's going with Massa but I can't imagine him winning in Hungary or Spa. Massa win only from poles (except Bahrain 2008 when he was first in the first corner so it's like win from pole) or by help of teammate reliability (France 2008) and FIA (Spa 2008).

also if this deal is done, ferrari/kimi parting, then we shud have some news at Monza regarding this ++ nando going to ferrari.

lets wait n c.

That report is a bit weird. It almost makes it sound like Kimi's management blackmailed Ferrari into sacking him. Heh.

Also, if they've negotiated something that links compensation to race wins and stuff, I'd hope the idea is that KR will be driving something that'll reasonably likely contest for race wins and stuff - otherwise there'd be no point.

Yeah, I'm getting a bit desperate here - not because my boy's getting sacked (I've been expecting that for a couple of years already) but because I need him to find gainful employment for next year and there's a distinct shortage of vacant race seats - in no small part because they're all being linked to Rosberg. Dammit, Nico, just pick one so everyone else can have their turn!

If he actually does get a €1m win bonus from Ferrari for beating them in another team's car then there will be a queue of drivers wanting to sign up with them

I agree... he starts winning, especially with some flair (passing on the track, etc.) and the Tifosi will love Alonso. Guaranteed.

As for his team building ability, I would be very surprised if he hasn't learned from his time at McLaren. Drivers do learn. Button isn't the same lazy playboy or teamjumper he used to be, for instance - he is now a strong team leader type driver. I'm sure Alonso will be the same at Ferrari - he'll be sure to spend plenty of time at the factory building relationships and support. That's been the advantage Massa has had over Raikkonen in their time together, as I'm sure Alonso is aware.

And this guy told everyone Fisi wouldn't drive for Ferrari.

Apparently it wasn't very motivating at all. IIRC Alonso's laptimes in Brazil were significantly worse than what Hamilton was doing, the latter attempting to recover from behind. Alonso was pale in Brazil that year. Seemed like he couldn't wait to be out of McLaren alltogether and he took it rather easy in the car.

As for Lewis going too fast for the tyres, a well timed pitstop does wonders (pity McLaren didn't understand this at that particular race). Anyway, Raikkonen was also going fast and he didn't do anything wrong to the tyres. The circumstances seemed more suited to the Mac than to the Ferrari (which usually didn't like a wet/cold track in 2007 and 2008), so Alonso not being a match at all for Raikkonen is quite disappointing.

Given Alonso also had crashed out of a good position in the previous GP at Japan (at least he was pushing there and a crash can always happen in those circumstances), it's hard to say he got the best out the car in those last 3 GPs. His performance was rather more Kovalainen-like.

...Kimi getting 1mln, seems like Ferrari says "Thank you Kimi" after every race win. Like... "Thank you Kimi for developing our car so that Nando and Massa can win" LOLZZZ just think how credible the championship would be if either Nano or Massa wins! :rofl:

Alonso had just used engine and Hamilton had a new engine which was specially prepared for only one race. That make huge difference in Brazil, especially in fast sector 3 where Alonso was much slower than Hamilton.

specially prepared homologated engine? WTF are you talking about?

Hamilon was on a 3 stopper in brazil 07 and alonso on 2 so you cant compare lap times, although something was pretty wrong with alonsos car to get a slower race lap than nakajima in a williams in his first ever f1 race.

And the topic of the thread is?

Why?

Kimi wants drive in F1 for a couple of years - Ferrari said we don't want to sign new contract for 2011, because we think Alonso will be better option.

Ok. Now Kimi need to decide what better - leave Ferrari this year or in 2010?

I think - this year will be better. Because Mclaren can give you a sit, Brawn (which I suppose will be good next year). In 2010 there won't be those opportunities. Except Kimi doesn't want race anymore, he will drive for Ferrari in 2010 and then retire.

I'm talking that Hamilton had a new engine and McLaren doesn't care about this engine that much as about engine which could be used before. I call this 'specially preparded' but that means only that they surely run on full revs during all race. Unlike Alonso engine, which was used in China and he had better chance to fail.

It was described by one of Renault enginering guys in some of the press release or interview (i don't remember). And new engine in Brazil that year made difference, i suppose not only Mercedes engine but in other teams too. I remember in some other teams guys with new engine also was clearly faster than teammate.

a) did Alonso have any fresh engines left?
b) a fresh engine is in no way special, used engines can run on full revs too, in fact they do all the time
c) you 're off topic, make a new thread and talk about it, this is about the 2010 silly season not Brazil 07

Yeah, that’s true.

I don’t think the second half of 2007 was a classic time for Alonso though, he was pretty unhappy.



It is based on reading fairly widely.

I mean, where do you get your information from?

Blaming the messenger isn’t really much of an argument.



I’m not defending Alonso.

But I do think he’s much more of a team motivator than Raikkonen.

Alonso and Raikkonen are probably quite similar on raw pace.

But there is more to that game than that.

Why would Ferrari be replacing Raikkonen with Alonso otherwise?



Yeah, that’s true.

But I remember him saying in an ITV interview last year that an F1 drivers career is quite short and sometimes they need to be selfish to make sure they’re in the right team at the right time.


And you are almost completely illiterate with a history of not responding to those who question your moronic posts.

I’d rather be wrong once than unable to construct a simple English sentence and constantly shying away from a debate.

Didn't Lewis lose 30 odd seconds during the race...something engine related? The same amout of time required to take enough points for the WDC?

Nah, I'm sure the trivial increase in performance from running higher revs was worth it. It's a shame they didn't do the same for Alonso.

Fresh engine, especially for only one race, makes difference:



source: http://my.ing-renaultf1.com/en/blog/821-Tr...geBlog#refresh2

that's from 2008, of course 2007 was the same



Sorry.

Yea, I like kids. Like you. Now we saw your real face and arguments - my poor english. Perfik.

Back in 2007 there was a difference between engines on their first race cycle and their second race, particularly on power tracks like Brazil. Added to this, Hamilton's engine could be run at full revs the whole weekend since it would only need to do one race. Having said that Alonso's performance that weekend seemed very much a case of going through the motions...