Why is everyone assuming the top teams will only be running two cars?

Maybe because there he been no offical annoucement about 3 car teams.

I disagree.

Yes, and how many times did he have a race-winning car under him? None. It's pretty telling that Raikkonen, Massa and now Mark Webber have moved on to bigger and better things, yet Nick Heidfeld is stuck in a car that is only the best of the rest in a good year, like 2008.


He might be gifted a win, like Kubica at Canada or Kovalainen in Hungary last year, but I have serious doubts that he can regularly and consistently challenge for race wins. He hasn't done it in over one hundred and sixty starts, so why is that suddenly going to change? Like I said, he might find himself a job with Manor or the other new teams, but I doubt he'd be drafted into a team like Brawn, who are going to finish strongly even if they fail to score a single point. A poor car is usually much more telling of a driver's ability, and so far Heidfeld has just six points to his name. He might have had a second place in Malaysia, but that was under pretty exceptional circumstances.

Do you ever read over what you write?

I don't necessarily think that this proves anything - it can also be a bit about luck and timing. Just ask Mark Webber.

Last year Nick was in a race winning car - although that result was a bit lucky. This year was supposed to be the year BMW challenged for the championship, and therefore had things turned out that way he would've been in a race-winning car.

I agree that he doesn't seem to have the raw speed in him to challenge other people on outright pace - but to say he couldn't win a race isn't fair IMO...

To say Heidfeld doesn't have race winning pace is plain stupid. In saying that i wasn't surprised that it was Kubica that got the win not Heidfeld ......... he's a great points accumulator but maybe to his detriment at times.

How can scoring lots of points be a detriment?

Do you ever think before you post? If you're going to debate the post, you should actually post an argument beyond "You're wrong because I say so". You know, try and get me to change my mind about Heidfeld.


Because he can't follow through. It's not the points that are a problem, it's how he scored them. He does not have a single win to his name. He has just a dozen podiums; four third places and eight seconds. And his end of year results are:

2000 - 20th (Prost)
2001 - 8th (Sauber)
2002 - 10th (Sauber)
2003 - 14th (Sauber)
2004 - 18th (Jordan)
2005 - 11th (Williams)
2006 - 9th (BMW)
2007 - 5th (BMW)
2008 - 6th (BMW)
2009 - 13th (BMW)

Even when he's with one team for more than one season, he's all over the place. I don't see anything in Nick Heidfeld to suggest he's worthy of a seat with a race-winning team, not when there's people like Sebastian Vettel out there who are younger, faster and more consistent. If I were a team principal, there's a list of names I'd be considering before Nick Heidfeld. History will not remember him for scoring lots of points, it will remember him for scoring lots of points, but never being able to convert that into a win.

Seb Vettel was 0.5 sec slower than Heidfeld in the only race they were driving the same machinery. He may be younger but by any standards he aint more consistent. Heidfeld holds F1 record of finished races in a row mate. Maybe since the beginings in Torro Rosso Seb got faster and less erratic, but so far he is losing on points with Mark Webber whom Nick Heidfeld beaten in the same machinery. Heidfeld is heavily underrated driver.

Look at the cars he's driving though, it would be a miracle if he did have a handful of wins! Only once has he had half a chance of a win, and then his team mate produced 10 seconds in 7 laps over him as his tyres were going off and Rob was on fire. Apart from the end of 06 to 08 he's always had bad cars. 2006-2007 the car was only upper midfield so podiums would be difficult when Mclaren, Ferrari and Renault (2006) were the top teams. In 2008 he had his tyre warming problems from Spain onwards, and then from Hungary BMW had really fallen behind.

Basically, despite the length of his career, he's never had a chance of driving a top car and has never been able to display his full potential. Therefore we can not judge him in the same way that we can't judge Robert. You need a winning car before you can be seen to be worthy of a winning car nowadays!

Which makes it something of a Catch-22: you cannot show winning ways until you get a winning car, but you cannot get a winning car without having shown winning ways.

Pretty much any driver who has been in the sport as long as Heidfeld has will have shown their full potential after a few years. 2009 is his tenth season, and yet he hasn't shown any flashes of brilliance. Look at Jenson Button, who is also in his tenth season: he was third in the 2004 season, the highest-placed non-Ferrari driver. He might have been gifted a race-winning car for this year (although it's not like he was in the right place at the right time). Heidfeld, on the other hand, hasn't done anything with what he's got or what he's had.

I am trying really, really hard here to make a case for him going somewhere like McLaren or Brawn, but I just keep coming up short. I have seen nothing from Heidfeld that suggests he would be a better candidate for a team than someone younger, like Sebastian Vettel or Lewis Hamilton. Why would someone like Ross Brawn or Martin Whitmarsh invest in an older driver like Heidfeld when they could sign a younger, faster driver from GP2 for less money and nurture him?

Before 2009 people said the same about Button that he isn't a race winning driver, lacks raw speed and got his only win thanks to luck, and hasn't proven anything during his almost 10 years of racing in F1. If Heidfeld was in that Brawn this year, he would be fighting for the championship.

My guess is Renault. They need a new lead driver if Alonso leaves and he used to be a Renault driver in the past.

There are numerous examples of drivers who havent shown winnig ways before they got winning car. Among them couple of guys beaten by Heidfeld in the same machinery.



Because Heidfeld will consistently bring points, without nurturing, learning curve and unforced mistakes.

Well, Sebastien's certainly younger than Nick. Maybe faster. He's not nearly as consistent.



Like Mark Webber?

I think Heidfeld's had an incredibly unlucky career myself, and I think he came into F1 a few years early myself.

- started in 2000 at Prost; a team going downhill.
- moved to Sauber, then went to Jordan (??!!) who were going downhill
- moved to Williams - got injured.
- moved to BMW, two OK seasons, but then BMW quit.

Unlucky? Yes.

Cause that BAR was totally rubbish wasn't it?


Heidfeld is very top shelf, there's little else to say. How else did he get a pole, a 2nd and a 3rd with the crap-tastic 05 Williams with the detuned 04 BMW motor, pogo stick suspension and as much drag as a Mack truck with an inverse lack of downforce.

Pure guesses:

Ferrari:

Kimi Räikkönen
Felipe Massa/Michael Schumacher

McLaren:

Lewis Hamilton
Nico Rosberg

Williams:

Heikki Kovalainen
Nick Heidfeld

Red Bull:

Mark Webber
Sebastian Vettel

Renault:

Fernando Alonso
Robert Kubica

Force India:

Adrian Sutil
Giancarlo Fisichella

Toro Rosso

Sebastian Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Toyota

Jarno Trulli
Timo Glock

Brawn GP

Jenson Button
Bruno Senna

USF1

Jacques Villeneuve
Scott Speed

Campos

Marc Gene
Pedro De La Rosa

Manor

Rubens Barrichello
Vitaly Petrov

add to that the fact he had an offer from Brawn last year, which he turned down due to Honda pulling out. (anyone would have)
If the offer is still good, or renewed, he may join Jenson next year. Ross likes experienced drivers and appreciates Nick's work ethic.

Here is my crazy guesses.

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Fernando Alonso (I don't even know, don't ask)

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrrari
Kimi Raikkonen (Am I now the only one who believes he's NOT going anywhere?!)
Felipe Massa

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Nico Rosberg

Toyota
Timo Glock
Robert Kubica

Renault
Romain Grosjean
Adrian Sutil (He NEEDS to get out of Force India)

Williams
Nico Hulkenburg
Nelson Piquet

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
Giancarlo Fisichella
Rubens Barrichello

Sauber (I'm holding out hope)
Nick Heidfeld
Heikki Kovalainen

USF1
Jacques Villeneuve
Sebastien Bourdais

Manor
Anthony Davidson
Rookie?

Campos
Pedro de la Rosa
Rookie?

Hes run behind massa at every single gp this year except for monaco, and the race where massa went out in q1 because he sat in the pits. Thats not worthy of a ferrari drive im afraid.

But he did have a race winning car last year, and he didnt win. The car was better than Alonso's who won 2 races in a year, where Heidfeld hasnt won in a decade. An outstanding driver would win races or fight for wins in a decade in the cars nicks hard. Some have been decent. Hes a solid driver, like the fisichella's, Heikki's ect.

What are you saying? If you cannot beat your teammate, then you are not worthy of driving at Ferrari?

Say Alonso comes in and beats Massa quite handily. Will that mean Massa is not worthy of a Ferrari drive?

Wrong

How you can have Heidfeld and Kovalainen in the same sentence baffles me. I'd take Heidfeld with one arm and a labotomy over Kovalainen.

If there is a better replacment then no hes not. Hes out.

Whats that based on? Heikki makes mistakes but hes probably quicker than Nick.

surprised anyone thinks Marco Andretti is F1 ready... unless he is bringing a lot of money.

So far, Heikki hasn't been quicker than anyone.

Look at it closer and the Kimi Vs Massa battle is the closest of the field, neither are faster and are usually separated by a combination of luck and strategy.

LOL!

But seriously me too. Nick may not be one of the quickest drivers but his finishing record says alot about him. He would be a perfect snatch for Mclaren. To me it either has to be Hick or Nico in that seat alongside Lewis.

Failing that I reckon Nick should go back to Williams. Nico has shown the car to be best of the rest behind RBR and Brawn. He is current only behind the 4 drivers driving those cars. Williams is badly let down by a 2nd driver who is unable to match Nico and get the performance out the car. Either by mistakes or just poor pace. In such a time when Williams could secure a strong WCC finish they need two strong drivers.

Yeah, and he showed it in 2008 being outscored by Nick in 0,5s slower car...

Heidfeld is very underrated driver, definately top8.

My guesses:

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Nick Heidfeld (could see him switch with Rosberg in the Toyota, but driving style wie this makes more sence)

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrrari
Fernando Alonso
Felipe Massa

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Adrian Sutil

Toyota
Jarno Trulli
Nico Rosberg

Renault
Romain Grosjean
Heikki Kovalainen

Williams
Gary Paffet
Kazukia Nakajima

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
...
...

Sauber
Giancarlo Fisichella
Rubens Barrichello

USF1 / Manor / Campos

Depending on wether they are allowed to test this year, I can see a lot of rookies/paydrivers or not.

You forget BAhrain, Australia, technical issues in Spain and Germany, bad strategy in Silverstone and Malaysia and collision in Turkey. All in all there was just about one race with no problems for either of them.

You are ****ing kidding me, jesus he's gotta be the slowest guy on the grid bar Nakajima and maybe Fisichella. it's hard to judge the STR boys. He's been AWFUL for 2 years.

@kNt

Those are some guesses! There's got to be a story behind there somewhere...

Glock joins a cult and no longer "believes" in motorsport
Raikkonen gets the sponsorship from Smirnoff that he needs to set up his own WRC team.
Kubica, in a freak bowling accident, receives a career ending injury.

Brawn GP
Button
Senna

Red Bull
Vettel
Webber

Ferrrari
Alonso
Massa

McLaren
Hamilton
Rosberg

Toyota
Glock
Trulli

Renault
Kubica
Grosjean


Williams
Barrichello
Hulkenburg


Toro Rosso
Buemi
Alguersuari

Force India
Fisichella
Kovalainen

Sauber-Piquet
Heidfeld
Piquet

Here is the final classufaction for the 2008 WDC


1. Lewis HAMILTON 98
2. Felipe MASSA 97
3. Kimi RAIKKONEN 75
4. Robert KUBICA 75
5. Fernando ALONSO 61
6. Nick HEIDFELD 60
7. Heikki KOVALAINEN 53

Kovalianen 7th in a WDC car, not good enough. IMO that was the worst season in a WDC car since Hector Rebaque in 1981, if not worse.

Heidfeld was ahead of him in a car which was typically 3-4 tenths slower.

That would be something!

Just a small correction - the car was 0.5s slower, sometimes a bit more, from about mid-season. It was disastrous perfromance.

Thanks, that makes Kova's "performance" more of a joke.

Thank you for posting correction from 0,4 to 0,5sec.
I think it was rather 0,48742135 sec., but in some races it could be
0,4452184s, too. So both you and corrected guy have a point.

Uhh, I forogot Kubica, I thought I had some drivers to few.

Glock has been quite useless quite often this year, I wouldn't keep him on as Toyota and I don't know if he's done enough to get him a job elsewere.

I think if Raikonnen is sacked from Ferrari and can't get a very-top drive he'll quit driving in F1 or only do it part time (sharing a cockpit with Msc, 8 races each?).

What? Glock has been a good, solid racer. His qualifying efforts may not help, but in the race he often makes up places, Hungary being a good example. He's finished in the top 10 in every race this season. Finally, Glock and Trulli are proving to be a good combination for Toyota. Trulli pushes Glock in qualifying and Glock pushes Trulli in the race. If only the car could be good at every circuit, Toyota might be 3rd in the constructors.

The results are indeed better than I had in mind. But when you follow him in races he often is quite fast, then somehow loses something and is very slow for some time (e.g. Bahrain).

Re. Glock, it's easy to move forward when you qualify 8 places lower than your team mate.

This line-up looks the most realistic and probable.

In Bahrain, Toyota had the wrong strategy and Trulli nursed his tyres better than Glock in the middle stint. The only other example i can think of is Spain, where the Toyota didn't have a good race pace.

True. It's the one thing he really needs to improve on.

Say it ain't so!