I wouldnt know how much slower if anything the 08 bmw was than Mclaren. The bmw could have been just as fast for all we know, but its true Heikki makes more mistakes , which would be because hes nowhere near as experienced as Heidfeld.

Once again what is this based on? Just because hes slow compared to Hamilton? Most of the grid could look just as slow compared to Hamilton, and would imo. Heikki looked good compared to Fisi in his rookie year and was as least as fast. How can Fisichella be slow, when he outpaced, ralf, wurz, button, massa, and is matching sutil? You cant just label someone slow because its convenient for your argument, you must show some credible evidence and explain any opposing evidence like I just listed. Thats how debating works.

So to sum it up. If Fisichella is slow then ralf, button, wurz, massa, and sutil, all were/are slow. I assume you agree?

Kova nearly got sacked in his rookie year at Renault. He was beyond terrible in the first half of the season, and managed to pull it back enough in the second half to save his F1 career. Only reason he got the McLaren drive is because he was the best available on short notice. He's kept it because he's an able enough #2 to support Hamilton without ever jeopardising Hamilton's title chase if the car is good enough.

If McLaren wanted the two best drivers they could get right now, they'd have Lewis and someone other than Kova. Kova deserves his place in F1 - no way is he as bad as some here are making out - but I wouldn't say he's done enough to show he deserves a long term McLaren drive. He's another DC, but not quite as good.

Play the driver faster than driver B therefore faster than driver C game is insanity, you'd come to the conclusion that they are all equally poaced given the musical chairs. Fisichella was AWFUL at Renault and hardly a marker to be proud of. Honestly, HK, he's been appalling ....... if he's replaced i'd be not too surprised if he ends up at a no hoper team or without a drive.

How is comparing the speed of two drivers in the same car insanity? Its the perfect platform to accurately compare performance. Are you telling me its insanity to say Alonso is a faster driver than Piquet? Surely a better example of insanity would be to say driver A is slower than driver B despite outpacing him in the same car?

It seems the only people who dont like this comparisions are the ones who dont like the results.

No i am saying that just because HK was faster than Fisichella ina Renault and Fisichella faster than Heidfeld ina Jordan does not make HK faster than Heidfeld, they are different cars, not the same.

It doesnt definately prove it but it does give a solid indication. Fisichella has a qualifying record of 125/61 (with the 05/06 renault seasons removed). Thats an exceptional ratio, higher than most drivers of the last 15 years. And your sitting here calling him slow? Sorry you just cant.

He was OBLITERATED by Alonso, it may have been the cvar, it may have been the team but he was terrible. You cannot tun 4 to 5 tenths slower than your team mate, i don't care who your team mate is.

If Hk wanted to drive my car i'd ask him to pay or bring an engine deal with him, he's been that bad IMHO.

Just because a driver gets blown away does not make him slow, it can also mean the other driver is just FASTER. do you think all the 100m runners in the olympics final were all slow? or was ussian bolt just freakishly fast?

Abit of both

It's all relative though, yeah you can be slow if you are half a second slower than Alonso or Hamilton. There is just no excuse, anything more than 2 to 3 tenths is shameful.

WoW!
This is a new one.
They were never team mate.
Fisi destroyed Sato in '02 and Firman and Baumbarden in '03.
Heidfeld destroyed Pantano and Glock in '04.
How this makes Fisi faster than Heidfeld is...

And some of you don't even give Heidfeld credit for beating Kimi, Massa, Webber and Kubica in the same car.

I was just making that up, didn't really matter which car or driver. The principal or the argument is what counts.

I know. And I agree with your point.

You have to take a lot of other factors in account: the relationship with the team, the engineers, your adaptation to the car... it is absolutely posible that an X driver will be faster than a Y driver in a certain team with a certain car and that the Y driver will be faster than the X driver in another team with another car with anothere engineers... thingg are actually more complicated than this silly comparisons. The motivation of the driver is very important too...

Everything you listed is supposition, which could or could not be a factor. For all you know the quicker driver might have been less comfortable in the team and engineers but was still faster. Their relative performance at that time is all that we know for sure. You are right its possible for massa to be faster than fisichella in another team scenario but its less likely than him being slower like he was in the previous team.

JPMontoya said on his twitter page that Frank Williams had been in touch with him.
But he ain't coming back to F1.

Well, Tony Dodgins of Autosport, has Robert Kubica going to Renault.
I'm not so sure.
Alonso and Robert on the same team?
If Alonso moves to Ferrari (unlikely) the only place that Massa could go is Renault.
Who else would have him?

I think Grosjean will drive for Renault next year. The big bosses want a French driver, no wonder they fired Piquet, at least Grosjean will have 6 pr 7 races experience before his first 'real' season. So, I think a Kubica-Alonso team is highly unlikely, IMO it'll either be Alonso-Grosjean(my guess) or Kubica-Grosjean.

Which leads to the conclusion that Heidfeld is faster than Raikkonen, Massa, Webber and Vettel.

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Rubens will surely retire or be forced into it? They won't have the budget for a second top driver so might have to go down the pay route? I don't think Bruno Senna has done anything to deserve it.

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrrari
Kimi Raikkonen (Unless Ferrari have too much money than sense, they surely won't spend millions paying Kimi off. They will just wait another season surely.)
Felipe Massa

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Nico Rosberg

Toyota
Timo Glock
Robert Kubica. I think after the earthquake in Italy and his business Jarno will leave to pursue those ventures.

Renault
Romain Grosjean
Fernando Alonso

Williams
Nico Hulkenburg
Heikki Kovalinen

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
Karun Chandock
Adrian Sutil - Puzzling. I don't think Fisi will last another season, Sutil has barely shown anything (though dreadfully unlucky), Liuzzi? Just another test driver.

Sauber/new team
Nick Heidfeld
Liuzzi? Klien?

USF1
Alex Wurz
Some American hot shot

Manor
Gary Paffet
No idea

Campos
Pedro de la Rosa
Lucas Di Grassi/Javier Villa?

Why does anyone still think that Chandhok will drive for Force India? (Let alone F1 at all.)

Money is on Sutil/Liuzzi at FI next year.

Just as people who pay close attention to the races and not just the points dont give DC the credt for beating MW in 07
And why many dont think MW is has the better of SV despite having more points than him AT THIS TIME

Because Webber joined in 2002 and has only just really shown his speed. Vettel joined last year and demonstrated his ability very early on. And before you say Jenson Button has been in the sport longer than Webber and is only beginning to come of age, it wasn't Mark Webber who dominated the early part of the season. Webber wasn't even close.

OK, I copied some guy's list from the previous page and improved it a bit. Naturally there could still be some changes due to injuries etc. but this should be correct for the most part.

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Rubens Barrichello

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrari
Michael Schumacher
Valentino Rossi

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Fernando Alonso

Toyota
Timo Glock
Jarno Trulli

Renault
Heikki Kovalainen
Romain Grosjean

Williams
Nico Rosberg
Robert Kubica

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
Giancarlo Fisichella
Adrian Sutil

Sauber
Nick Heidfeld
Kimi Raikkonen

USF1
Jacques Villeneuve
Nelson Piquet

Way to miss the point of the post.
I am not talking about MW vs SV or the fact that some people cant tell the difference between drivers performing in a good car and drivers performing and a bad car.
I am talking about people who are unable to look past WDC point to get a better understanding of how a driver has performed.
In this case it was NH and the MW SV DC talk was only to illustrate the point.

However dont let me take you away from your dream land where MW is only NOW showing pace. (if anything he has underperformed so far relative to previous years)

NH has been quick and consistent for much of his time in F1.
It would be a shame for him not to have a drive in 2010.
Especially if that derision was made by the yard stick used in this forum.
But he has not outperformed ALL of his team mates.

Gee NH is getting OLD he is not a teenager.
He has not got a raft of wins (lets ignore the cars he has had to drive)

I would take NH over half the drivers who will have a seat in 2010.
Lucky for the youth obsessed people here my opinion has no impact at all.

Brawn GP
Jenson Button - For Sure
Rubens Barrichello - Can't see it happening, this has to be his last season

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel - For Sure
Mark Webber - For Sure

Ferrari
Michael Schumacher - Wishful thinking mate, absolutely zero chance.
Valentino Rossi - Even less chance than MS. Also why would Ferrari want a rookie and an oldie?

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton - For Sure
Fernando Alonso - What? You're kidding me right?

Toyota
Timo Glock - Likely, unless he's in the Mclaren #2 seat.
Jarno Trulli - Likely

Renault
Heikki Kovalainen - Not sure about this.
Romain Grosjean - very Likely

Williams
Nico Rosberg - Likely, unless he's in the Mclaren #2 seat.
Robert Kubica - I can see this, plausable.

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi - For Sure
Jaime Alguersuari - For Sure

Force India
Giancarlo Fisichella - I think this seat will be taken by Liuzzi if Fisi calls it a day at the end of 09.
Adrian Sutil - For Sure

Sauber - Looks likely they won't be on the grid.
Nick Heidfeld - Maybe, much more likely he'd be in the #2 seat at Mclaren/Renault/Ferrari/Brawn
Kimi Raikkonen - Can't see it.

USF1
Jacques Villeneuve - hahaha. They've denied it. Also, he's neither American or young, therefor doesn't fit their criteria.
Nelson Piquet - No. They've already confirmed it'll likely be De La Rosa or Wurz + one young US driver.

Also, no Massa? I take it you know better than his Doctors and are convinced he'll never race again? Nakajima isnt listed either, but that I can live with

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Bruno Senna

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrari
Kimi Raikkonen
Felipe Massa

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Heikki Kovalainen

Toyota
Timo Glock
Jarno Trulli

Renault
Fernando Alonso
Robert Kubica

Williams
Nico Rosberg
Nick Heidfeld

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
Adrian Sutil
Vitantonio Liuzzi

USF1
Alexander Wurz
Random American

Campos
Pedro De La Rosa
Vitaly Petrov

Manor - Not a Clue, sorry

Sense!

lolwut

Brawn GP
Jenson Button
Nick Heidfeld

Red Bull
Sebastian Vettel
Mark Webber

Ferrari
Kimi Raikkonen
Felipe Massa

McLaren
Lewis Hamilton
Nico Rosberg

Toyota
Timo Glock
Jarno Trulli

Renault
Robert Kubica
Romain Grosjean

Williams
Rubens Barrichello
Nico Hülkenberg

Toro Rosso
Sebastien Buemi
Jaime Alguersuari

Force India
Adrian Sutil
Vitantonio Liuzzi

USF1
Heikki Kovalainen
Graham Rahal

Campos
Pedro de la Rosa
Vitaly Petrov

Manor
Nelson Piquet jr.
Giancarlo Fisichella

Ferrari 2 (Ex-BMW)
Fernando Alonso
Michael Schumacher

I reckon Ant Davidson and Adam Carroll for Manor

interesting bit of conjecture by planet-f1. Take it with a truckload of salt though.

http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3261_5476434,00.html

There's an interesting paragraph in this article on the Time website:


This was news to me.

Does this refer to a one-off test, or has Fisichella been signed as a Ferrari test driver for next year?
If so, does that mean his F1 career is over, and that there is a definite seat available at Force India next year?
And why do Ferrari need another test driver? Has the testing ban been lifted for 2010, or do they need a replacement for one of their existing test drivers?
Gene to Campos perhaps?

Have Googled the words Fisichella Test Ferrari 2010 and got nothing, and have searched this forum for any comments but drawn a blank.
Surely if this were true we would have heard something.

Or is it all rubbish, and The Times have made an error?

I think all the big names will remain where they are, Kubica and Heidfeld will replace slower #2 drivers at bigger teams while older drivers will be shuffled around to newer teams.

http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2009/08/what...xt-driver-move/

Interesting bit about Ferrari's dilema over drivers for 2010.

What dilemma? All they need to do is postpone Räikkönen's sacking until Massa's ready to race again and they're all sorted. If anything, they're lucky to have so many drivers under contract; no matter what people say about Kimi, he's likely no worse a sub for Massa than someone like Badoer.

Allegedly.

Raikkonen has a contract though.

Yep, and he's too expensive to just sack.

A recent precident is Bourdais.

Given the boot by STR but he was paid out the rest of is contract and given a $2.1 million damages settlement. (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21710.html)

If Raikkonen is earning $40 million a year (as rumoured), Ferrari will have to pay out that amount and another giant settlement to get rid of him.

Weighing that up, it is probably too expensive to sack Raikkonen.

Don't forget, he's just posted his best result in more than a year, and Ferrari haven't given him the best car this year.

And with Massa not driving at the moment he's likely to totally dominate Badoer and Gene, raising his stock further.

So Ferrari can hardly enact a performance clause either.

I think they're snookered.

Unless their 2010 option with Alonso can be delayed until 2011.

Strange decision to renew Kimi's contract in the first place, considering they'd already decided to replace him with Alonso.

Yep.

But sounds as though the deals were done in 2008.

For all we know Massa might have been the one expected to make way for Alonso in 2010.

After all, Raikkonen won the world championship in 2007 and looked the stronger of the two early last year.

Then his performances fell off a cliff and Massa emerged as the team's stronger driver.

So could Massa have been facing the door because three into one don't go?

If I'm informed correctly Ferrari didn't have a choice. Kimi had an option to renew his contract with them for 2009 and 2010 and decided to do so, and so Ferrari were left without a choice but to sign Kimi for another two years.

Easy to say with hindsight but that was great for Kimi, less great for Ferrari. Kimi would appear to have a very good manager. I still think Ferrari will be doing everything they can to try and prize him out of that car by the end of the season.

The Robertsons right, rather and son?

Robertson Snr looks like a pretty streetwise character, with the gold chain to prove it.

Steve used to be a racer himself.

They're clearly no fools.

And much as I think Kimi has been a bit average the past 18 months, a contract is a contract.

So Ferrari can either:

a) Boot Raikkonen out and pour megabucks into a black hole to settle the breached contract
b) Keep Raikkonen, and pair him with Massa, making Alonso wait until 2011
c) Make the massively unpopular decision to boot Massa, and run Raikkonen and Alonso in 2010

Be interesting to see what happens.
When is Massa contracted to out of interest?

I'm pretty sure it was just a one-year extension, i.e. he was already contracted for 2009. That only highlights how effing stupid the whole thing is. Ferrari already had Massa under contract for 2009+2010 and Alonso for 2010 and beyond (allegedly) when they suddenly had no choice but to renew Kimi's contract as well. Sucks for them but perhaps they should've read the fine print before signing the original contract... Or maybe they did but were confident that they'd manage to talk him into leaving "willingly". Unfortunately for them, Kimi seems like a stubborn little thing so if he knew they wanted him gone, and how could he not, I can see how that might've only strengthened his resolve not to do them any favors.

I do think it's quite hilarious that they've apparently managed to negotiate contract terms that say a certain level of performance entitles the driver to an automatic extension while at the same time that same level of performance is considered so below par that they've spent the past 2.5 years trying to get rid of the guy. Really, were they negotiating under the influence or something?

In my opinion, the classy thing to do would've been to pay Kimi off last year at the latest and not take the piss with that so-called contract extension for 2010. That was just nasty if, as seems to be the case, they never had much intention to follow through.

I think it depends if that 2010 option is binding dependent on performance clauses.

If the ball is in Kimi's court Ferrari are screwed.

I have an idea they'll wait to see how Kimi does in Valencia. If he looks good I think they might drop Felipe, with his injury and in the light of the Schumi fiasco. They won't want another one of those dragging on into next year. The health thing could well open a loophole in the contract and Fernando vs. Felipe is an easy choice if that's what it comes down to.

And I think Kimi is starting to enjoy the car more now.

If Kimi can get his mojo back there's no reason why he couldn't be an awesome race driver again.

The Massa question is really interesting.

Theoretically speaking, say team mangement had already committed to Alonso and had decided to stick with the watertight Raikkonen.

Ditching Massa would have already been quite an unpopular move.

But now Felipe is recovering from injury it would look beyond cruel for the team to boot him.

I can't imagine they're prepared to do that.

But would they want to write off the best part of $50m paying Raikkonen?

As said above, three into two won't go...