I thought the incident was interesting in the light of the discussions about penalties lately, when drivers have been off roading.
Kimi was not punished at Spa (ok according to me) but Webber was punished in Singapore (wrong according to me). Now, none of those incident was similar to the Kovalainen/Sutil tangle but for me it kind of highlighted a problem that I think is increasing and is something that is bad for racing in general - nobody wants to give anyone else some space anymore. Sure, it has always happen that drivers fighting for position bump into each other, but it is now really really rare to see two cars racing side by side anymore. When I think back, I can hardly remember any such thing since Montoya left. He was driving 4-5 corners next to Kimi at Hockenheim for instance. I also remember the times he raced alongside Schumacher. It never ended well. Massa and Kubica at... Fuji? In the rain was amazing. Amazing in the way that they seem to try all they could to push the other one outside the track.

I can not decide if anyone was at fault, regarding the incident that the poll is about. I thought Sutil made a clean pass, but to my surprise Kovalainen did not back off and moments later I realized why - he had a good position to stay ahead of Sutil. But Sutil gave him no room, trying to force Kovalainen to cut the corner or back off. Kovalainen did not and won the position. After that I was (pleasantly) surprised that the incident was not investigated and no one got any penalty.

I am not sure were I am heading here, I was just surprised of the situation because going side by side more than one corner is so extremely rare nowadays. But should it be? Do you think that the drivers are to quick to close the door or is it ok like it is? Should the drivers be prepared to the fact that the other driver might wanna stay on track while fighting back?

Webber definitely should've been punished in Singapore.

Anyway I think that was a 50/50 racing accident. Sutil left Kov with no room to go so they touched.

Kovy left a gap, allowed Sutil to get in front of him, then chopped into his rear wheel. Clearly at fault.

So he should have had a penalty?

Nope, no penalty required at all, it was a racing incident. Nothing more than that.

Exactly. Sutil didn't leave any room for Kovalainen. I don't even like Heikki, so I wouldn't be defending him, but Sutil made a stupid mistake in Singapore, and I think he made another one at Suzuka. Sutil made a move to get under Heikki but then went straight for the next apex. What was he expecting? For Heikki to just put on the brakes and let him go? The next corner was a lefty, which Heikki would have had the inside line on, so I don't think Sutil should have pushed it at that point.

The funny thing is that Sutil almost did the same stupid thing he did in Singapore, spinning the car around while traffic was bearing down on him. He could have punted someone like he did with Heidfeld last weekend.

Heikki was on the grass and over the kerb, he wasn't going to make the second part of the chicane even if Sutil left him another half car width. He should have defended under braking and avoided the side-by-side situation altogether, poor defending I thought.

This one is Kova's fault. He should've given up the corner.

Similar to Massa/Hamilton accident at Fuji, when Massa spun Hamilton around.

Kovalainen's fault in my opinion. He looked like somebody real desperate to hold on to his seat for next year, but unfortunately couldn't go any faster than he was going.

I blame Sutil simply because he was the one who overtook, and Kovalainen didn't do anything nasty. But I blame nobody actually.

I'd say more Kova's fault, but not by much. 60/40 maybe. It certainly doesn't warrant a penalty though. I'm against penalties for RACING generally, unless it's a really extreme circumstance.

Button and Kubica showed everyone how it should have been done a few laps earlier.

At the time I thought it was more Kova's fault, but in the end I went for 50/50, because they were just about side by side going into the corner and neither was going to give in.

Sutil was being naive if he thought Kovi was about to shut off and give him the second part of the chicane. He had every right to contest the pass IMO and Sutil should have given him more room. To claim Sutil was passed is nonsense, as he would never have reached that point from the tighter inside line if he hadn´t been too fast into the first corner, which meant he had no option but to cut the second part. Where did he think Kovalainen was going?
It was a clumsy effort by the German as he would have had the inside on the next right hander anyway. He really should improve his overtaking skills.

Kovalainens fault this one. Every time a racing insident like this is not penalized I hope it marks a change and a move away from the last 5-10 years of over use of penalties for racing insident. Usually it only takes to the next race for me to realise that no change is on the way.

/Viktor

I don't really blame anyone, both have fault I think. Sutil didn't leave much room but Kovalainen shouldn't have defended this hard, Sutil was way faster, and Kova could have cut the chicane as well.

He already had his two inside wheels over the curb. Anything else is not allowed.
If you have to force your opponent to leave the track in order to make a successful pass, then the pass wasn´t on to begin with.

Sutil slightly more to blame imo. I'd have to have another look at it though.

If I was sutil i would be thinking "damnit he should've backed off" .. and if I was Kovalainen i'd be thinking "he didn't give me room - i did."

By the time Kova decided that he wasn't going to be passed easily Sutil could've avoided it by giving more room - for Kova it was too late to avoid if Sutil did turn in on him.

I can't believe Kovalainen wasn't penalise, given the precedence that Massa was penalised for a very similar defensive action last year at Fuji, also coming back from being off the track, slamming into Lewis. However, I find it astonishing how Sutil always gets caught up in mess. I believe it's a bit sloppy from his part not planning his moves better, and not focusing on bringing the car home at any price.

Yeah that's true. What if Kovalainen indeed cut the chicane because Sutil forced him to, would he have to give back the position?

[old fart]
In the old days, when racing was between gentlemen and the dangers and stakes a bit higher, you knew when you were beaten into a corner and you graciously accepted it. In my opinion, Sutil got there first and Kovalainen should have conceded the corner. Like Kubica. He was lucky that he didn't ruin his own race by trying to force the issue.
[/old fart]

That being said, I think I posted in the live thread that it was a racing incident and even if I apportioned the blame on Kova, I don't think a penalty was warranted anyways.

from one of the camera angles it looked like kova could've and should've slowed, but he decided to hit sutil on purpouse. similar to what touring car drivers do in such situations.

anyway, sutil gets himself in such situations too often to be considered serious front running potential. i like sutil, but his driving increasingly stinks of desperation.

Kova should have been more defensive on entry rather than let Sutil get past then try to hold on. Definitely more Kovas fault.

IIRC Kovalainen had enough of his car alongside of Sutil's to be entitled room for the next corner, Sutil closed the door and Heikki didn't have anywhere to go.

Is it just me or does Sutil get over-anxious when racing wheel-to-wheel? This is the third time this year he has crashed while overtaking and he has had at least 50% of the blame in all three.

It was touring car style move by Sutil but still Heikki should let him go, this way they both lost out.
I guess half of todays drivers wouldn't lift like Schumacher did at 130R when Alonso overtook him in 2005, they would kill each other...

The contact was inevitable for Kovalainen. Sutil turned into the apex at the second corner of the chicane like Kovalainen wasnt even there.

Sutil must have known Kovalainen was right next to him, but still decided to turn into the corner like Kovalainen could just disappear into air.

Another dumb move by Sutil. If a car is still right next to you, you cannot close the door.

thats the way I saw it as well.

It may be more Kova's fault, but I have to ask if anyone ever seen Sutil AVOID a accident? I'm not impressed.

My understanding is that sense Heikki had nothing to loose he had decided to crash rather than let anybody pass him.

Heikki lost it by trying to fight it while mostly off the circuit. He lost control on the grass and the curb and ran into Sutil's side.

Both at fault I thought, but more Kovy than Adrian, too desperate not to race badly again. But both guys just too nice IMO, have to force the aggression and that's why they get it wrong so often. A top driver would have (a) defended better or (b) overtaken more thoroughly and run deeper/faster into the first corner leaving his victim no option.

[eidt] and ( c) given it up once they'd been overtaken and lost the place.

^^
This.

You are overlooking one important factor IMO. The entry into that particular chicane is not like most other corners, ie, it´s not approached from a straight piece off track.
The approach is banana shaped and the road is very wide at that point. Straight lining the approach makes it much shorter and therefore very easy to outbrake someone, but the problem is, your entry angle is then far more acute than the driver who goes the long way around. So unless the overtaking maneuver is completed before the bend, the driver on the inside can´t claim the corner, otherwise he´s virtually block passing motocross style, particularly if he then forces the other driver to leave the road in order to avoid a collision.
It was a clumsy move by Sutil and he got what he deserved.

I think you really need to go back and look at that if you think that's the case.

I said 50/50 ; Sutil seemed to think he was past Kovaleinen when he wasn't, didn't give him nearly enough room on the exit as a result.

it's the same as massa vs hamilton. exactly the same move.

I'm more with the OP on the side by side thought really. To me, Kova was still far enough alongside (ie half way up, or more) Sutil to be entitled to be left a car's width of room on the track. Sutil may have got there first, but he didn't get there sufficiently beforehand to be entitled to close the door, so he shouldn't have pushed Kova off.

Having said that, it was very fine, so even if Sutil got it a bit wrong it was a very forgivable error - ie no need for a penalty.

Hamilton was over half way up on Massa. Hamilton gave Massa a car's width of room.

So no, it wasn't the same.

The crash reminded me a bit of:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nl5aMMRgTEk

Jack, I think the difference is, Massa overshot the corner which allowed Lewis to get fully passed. The only way Massa could get back alongside was to cut the inside of the corner. Had he followed the track he wouldn´t have made contact because he would have ended up behind his opponents car.
So, a few subtle differences IMO.