everybody talk about Kubica as a keyplayer in the transfert market. tenault wants him, why not McLaren, etc...

It is clear he has beaten Heidfeld last year (after loosing one year and half before that), but this year, I got the feeling Heidfeld is clearly overperforming him in terms of pace (even in Monza where he finished behind for example).

And since I read Kubica's name everywhere I was wondering if I saw wrong or if his last year's reputation is still having effects...

A driver's "value" is often based on less tangible things. And F1 insiders may know things fans don't.

Kubica's stock skyrocketed when he entered F1 and was immediately as fast as Heidfeld and faster than Villeneuve. Since then, he has not truly beaten Heidfeld in any significant way but has taken a win and the odd podium when they were up for grabs. That is usually the sign of a great driver. Hamilton and Heiki were pretty even when the McLaren was crap and Hamilton couldn't be bothered but when the car came good, Hamilton found an extra gear while Heiki remained on the same level.

Heidfeld is a very good, solid driver but lacks charisma in and out of the cockpit while Kubica still has the perceived potential to be very good.

In a rather barren field, quality and age wise, he is one of the most attractive options.

Good post - I feel that this is the difference between Heidfeld and Kubica.
When car is good Kubica will squeeze more in terms of pace out of the car.

I believe Kubica is more conservative driver from that perspective - if the car is sh**t he will not push to the limit
whereas Heidfeld with his softer touch can fineagle his way around bad performing car better.

That's the key and very good example. Also last year in crap car Barrichello had Button covered, but in first part of this season when Brawn car was good on every circuit Button was superior to Rubens. Things change drastically when the car becomes better.

so if kubica needs a good car and nick can drive better a bad car why are the teams with bad cars looking for kubica? wouldnt that be counter productive? in 2006 he was outscored by nick in a similar way than villeneuve. so no kubica wasnt faster than j.v. yes he had a podium in monza but that was after an engine blew on the car placed in 3rd place and the 4th place car spun losing time. (masa and alonso?)

while being matched with nick he was only better than nick in 2008. so thats almost 2 and a half seasons versus one.

and whoever says kubica is a key figure in the transfers is dellusional first it was alonso now its kimi then rosberg and finally kubica as priority for the top teams.

Rosberg? good joke, you're making people laugh...

Kubica and Heidfeld are both good drivers. Kubica had the edge in qualifying last year when Heidfeld had serious tyre problems. Both are very consistent. They hardly make any mistake and almost always deliver if the car is reasonably good. I agree that Kubica has the advantage of a won race and lower age, which makes him an attractive option for many teams. However, Heidfeld is certainly one of the best drivers on the market in terms of cost/performance ratio. He usually does not make bold statements, but there are probably ongoing negotiations with Quadbak/Sauber and one or two other teams (new teams excluded).

Rosberg is German. That seems to be a valuable trait for some people on the paddock...

right... How could I forget 'bout that?
He would also be "a treat" for eyes... (if you are gay, RK is lacking big time in this department).
He is no celebrity.
I was so naive thinking it's all about driving skills.

Where have you been in 2008? Kubica crushed Heidfeld in qualifications, average time gap in qualis was bigger only between Alonso and Piquet. Kubica beaten Heidfeld in races, and the point gap doesnt reflect the scale of that thanks to weird SC rules that most of the time helped heavy Heidfeld starting out of top ten, and screwed few races for light Kubica starting from top 6. Even this year in the car that is crap and since COP and COG where moved to the front doesnt suit Kubica he still beats Heidfeld in qualifications 8:7. Races in a crap car are more or less lottery when single lucky lap llike in Malaysia or unlucky accident like in Australia may increase the point gap.

People underrated Heidfeld who beaten Raikkonen, Massa, Vettel and Webber in the same machinery.

When it comes to Rosberg, I dont buy this "sheer pace mysticism" as the only time Rosberg was racing against known quantity was in his first season when he lost to Webber. What I see is Rosberg tend to regularly f*ck up races when he is under pressure, which Kubica doesnt do. Sure German with Britney Spears look is hot marketing commodity but from the racing point of view IMHO Heidfeld would beat him, not mentioning Kubica.

Also don't forget Kubica might just be the unluckiest driver in F1 this year.

Multiple engine failures (resulting in him being down on power at Spa the circuit the car went best at), taken out when he was on the podium (though I'm guessing Vettel misses those points more than Kub right about now) and the last 3 races where the car has been quick enough to score solid points he's had an engine failure and yellow flags ruin his qualifying.

It would really suck for Kubica if this years crappy car + exploding engines and sloppy pitwork have effected his rep around the grid, because if you follow Kubica you would know there is more to his performance this year than just the numbers.

Lacks charisma?

Just because he's quiet and not screaming from the rooftops doesn't mean he's lacking charisma.

I think Nick is one of the more interesting drivers to listen to, he's thoughtful and not nearly as hung up on pleasing the cameras with one-liners as one of his younger countrymen...

In terms of image, I actually think Nick is one of the coolest and most individual guys out there.

Wrong. In that race he passed 3 cars at the start (Button, Massa and Heidfeld) and was passed by one car (Alonso) which eventually had an engine failure. Massa who was driving the same Ferrari as Schumacher wasn't able to pass Kubica.

both are not worth more than lending a hand at renault toyota or force india but the problem is neither want to go there because it means the probable end to their carrier later wether pro or con.they will accept a seat in these mentioned teams or the new borne ones "salary permitting" if next month there is no where else better to go or they have to go DTM etc.Raikonen is the only serious contender to the remaining hot seat on the grid..... Mclaren.

Paddock Spy

1. If it weren't for being underweight in Hungary, Kubica would have been a mere two points behind Heidfeld in the races they both competed in in 2006. Hardly a massive gap, it must be said.

2. Using luck as a way of justifying Heidfeld is better than Kubica is frankly ridiculous. Heidfeld has been lucky in many instances by, say, going onto different strategies when he has nothing to lose. Examples include Spa 2008, Malaysia 2009...

3. Kubica's luck this year has been frankly appalling. Calculating the amount of points lost includes:

(at least) 8 in Australia - need I explain?
(at least) 3 in Japan - stupid stewards decisions after qualifying means that at least 3 points was taken from him, considering Rosberg finished 5th.
(at least) 2 in Italy - an inconsistent decision from the stewards (uh... hello? 2008 in France, stewards? ) cost Kubica these points, especially since he was ahead of Heidfeld whilst on a similar strategy.

That's not including the unfortunate clutch problem for Robert in Spain, or the safety car incident in Singapore, either.

So, that's at least 13 points robbed from Robert as a result of frankly bad luck. Heidfeld has lost nowhere near as many points as Robert has as a result of bad luck.

For some reason Heidfeld was and will always be underrated. He has consistently beaten his teammates which were Massa, Raikkönen, Villeneuve and now Kubica in 2006, 2007 and 2009.

What's wrong with Rosberg (or specifically his F1 driving skills)?

Putting him in the same league as Kimi and Alonso is wrong.

Please don't forget this ones:
Massa vs Kubica Japan 2007
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DRpQ-w6d6xU

or this one:
Kubica Raikonnen 2008
http://www.mototube.pl/film/1005/grand-pri...ca-i-raikkonen/

Start of Kubica in Spa 2009
http://www.mototube.pl/film/2823/gp-belgii...kubica-onboard/

Another great start in japan:
http://www.mototube.pl/film/1000/grand-pri...art---powtorka/

Start of Robert on Monza 2009:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sylWdPkzyQI

If you think that RK is comparable, or even worse than NH, I wouldn't say that you know nothing about F1, I say only that you watched on the races to Hamilton, Alonso or another Raikkonen, and not on RK and NH. The points doesn't say all.

RK is definetly a driver of LH, SV, KR, FM and FA legaue, in other series he has beaten frequently Hamilton, Rosberg or Vettel, when he has the comparable car.

I think nobody is talking about Heidfeld because Heidfeld has pledge his allegiance with BMW and said he'd follow whatever the team will become. Which is very honorable and admirable thing. Heidfeld is an awesome driver of high integrity.

I have to admit that I do not know answer to that. Some indications are, that in a better machinery Rosb. would get better results, but who can say with any degree of certainty where he ends up? I have overestimated Fisi, and little bit Kimi too. I though Kimi would be second MS; oh boy. Today I am more carefull with my crystal ball. Seb V. is the only one among "seniors" in whom I have trust that he is still improving from race to race.

How many offers he has from other teams?

actually - quite an interesting question/topic.

I'm disappointed because I thought this was a thread about the many 3-series drivers who like to tailgate on motorways or straddle multiple lanes everywhere else. Sadly, it's about F1.

"You're only as good as your last race"

I'd dearly love to see Kubica in a decent car. he was a force to be reckoned with in 2007, and could be once again. I think he seems to come across as a bit of a humourless grafter so it's a shame he's not going to Williams because he'd fit right in there. I hope that whatever car he does get, it's a good one.

EDIT:

"force to be reckoned with in 2008"

I dont think so. Kubica is a joke. Alonso was the key and then Raikkonen (as a few teams are really interested in him.) Kubica is best of the rest and was never on the radar of the big 2, IE; Ferrari or Mclaren. But Kubica was wanted by teams like Williams, Renault and Toyota. Its only in the mind of BMW and the Poles, that Kubica is a big player. When he can put Heidfeld out to pasture, then I'll listen. Until then he is unproven at the highest level.

Hard to say really.

You've got to remember that quite often when Driver X is linked to Team Y, what we're seeing is a driver manager spreading rumours about his boy so it seems like he has heaps of attention.

The fact Quick Nick hasn't been publically connected with anyone might mean he has some good options.

He's on the Third Tier of driver moves.

The first tier is solely Alonso.

The second is Raikkonen, Barrichello and Kubica.

Once those guys have slotted into place we'll see Nick do his deal.

I think he'll either end up at Williams, Renault or Sauber but I reckon he could also be a wildcard for Toyota.

one of the smartest posts recently regarding 2010 season.

and Webber, and Glock and Alesi.

As a long time Heidfeld fan, (I think there are only a hand full on this board) I can tell you that the question posed has been valid since 2002.
What he lacks is an effective PR machine. He wrongly believes that his performance on track should be enough. It is not.
In this age of media, it is "hype" that makes the F1 world go round.
His pre-F1 record is stellar and he certainly deserved to be here.
Since joining F1, even his own German media has not been promoting him. Not because he was not worthy but because they had their Schumacher.
In extolling the virtues of MS it often became necessary to downplay Heidfeld's accomplishments. Michael was driving the best car. Nick was dorking around in Prosts and Jordans and Saubers. Yet, other than HHF, he shaded every one of his teamates. To me, all of them were top drawer.
We all know that he was devasteded when Ron picked Kimi to come to Mac. Many said that this somehow "proved" that KR was the better prospect. Had the decision been Mercede's to make, or had Mika not had an influence or had Ron not preffered Finns to Germans, who knows?
Kimi DID win several races with McLaren but never a championship with an obviously capable car.
Webber was clearly the number one driver at Williams in '05, yet Nick just "sat there" and quietly beat him on points, even with twice as many mechanical failures as Mark.
In '06 he beat JV and Robert, one an old war horse and the other a rising star. In '07 again, in the last half of '08 they were even and now again in '09 he's ahead.
Nick's "black" period was the first 6 races of '08 where he had trouble with geting heat into the tyres. Robert showed what the car was capable of during that time. Nick could not d likewise when stuck in traffic two thirds back. Contrary to popular opinion, neither Robert nor the BMW got worse during last half of the year. The new parts for the car, and there were many, did not work at all. Nick changed his driving style (unlike Kimi, who had similar problems, but couldn't be arsed) and went on to even beat Robert in points over the last 10 races. When some fans compare his race pace, few consider the strategy, the heavy fuel and heavy traffic, which was the norm if qualifying poorly. Robert won in Montreal after Nick pulled over for him for the good of the team. It was the only way to assure a BMW 1-2 that day.
In '09, Nick is clearly in front. Robert leads qualifying by only 8-7 but Nick leads in points.
Before the Polish brigade start flaming here, let me say that Kubica is the best teamate that Nick ever had and I like them both very much for their no-nonsense, heads down, get the job done, kind of racing. Both deserve better, when I look at the young guns that are in top cars without having paid their dues.
As to the '09 driver market, being German is a big problem for Nick. With Hulkenberg, there are now 6 of them in play and it is not likely that any team will hire two of the same nationality.
Robert's popularity will help him land a good seat this year or next.
However, I fear for Nick. He's not just an older experience guy like Fisi or Rubens or Trulli or Webber. All 4 of them have had a chance with top cars.
Nick, unlike all of them, has never been consistently outperformed by the teamate.
Heidfeld needs a competitive car. He has proven that he can drive everything else.
The reason I'm a big Heidfeld booster is because he is consistently underated. Everybody admits it but does nothing about it.
The British media is focused on their Button/hamilton heroes. The German media once again is riding the next bandwagon of Vettel and Rosberg. Just today, AMuS praise Rosberg for his "perfec timing" of the SC yesterday.
Heidfeld needs fans like us that can see beyond the hype.

This, NOBODY has been able to do.

I love F1 watching this clips. Thanks for it.

I wasn't so fair with this clips, focusing on KUB, if it gets about RK/NH a must-show is this one:
http://www.viddler.com/explore/Tarya/videos/8/
:-)
Don't blame me, I'm a fanboy

I love the way you've chosen 10 races... why not 11 or 9, where Robert beat Nick.

Just because it's a precise number of races doesn't mean that it is more statistically correct than any other number.

There were 18 races last season - in the first half, Robert won, and in the last half, Robert won.

The above bolded statement is true - but it doesn't provide the full story. As is always the case, each driver had their ups and downs, and there is always a reason why somebody doesn't score points. We can all look at statistics and pick at it to give us the outcome we want.

The point I was trying to make is that Nick had recovered.

Absolutely. Sorry, that sentence just stuck out for me because I've seen it used a lot by other people in the past, and I just had to point that out

Aside from Maclaren and Ferrari Nick will be a steal for any team that he ends up with. I personally think it will be either Toyota or one of the new teams.

The car did not get worse:
BMW Sauber after GP France - 74 Points, KUB 46/HEI 28, that makes 9,25 point per race for BMW
BMW Sauber in last 10 races - 61 Points, KUB 29/HEI 31, that makes 6,1 point per race for BMW

Why BMW got less points in the last 10 races, if it didn't get worse?

Everybody knows, that they have concentrated on the 2009 season with the great KERS in opposite to Ferrari and McLaren, after the Canada win, the car must got worse.

Geez, you are a joke mate. Neither Poles nor BMW considered Kubica to be the key to drivers market. Thats your pure imagination. If you'll find a quote that proves the opposite I'll eat my hat.

Ferrari has one seat open and McLaren has one seat open. It is obvious for everyone that McLaren would choose Raikkonen over everyone including Alonso, Kubica, Button and Rosberg. First thing, he is a champion, second he is well known to the team. It is also obvious for everyone that the only guy who could replace Raikkonen would be Alonso.

Kubica in inferior car in 08 scored as much points as Raikkonen , he was leading championship thanks to superior consitency comparing to EVERYONE. Thats why some teams compete for his services, and they dont compete for Heidfeld, and with whole respect nobody of those who make decision is F1 gives a sh*t who do you consider proven or unproven.

This has been debated before.
The car did not get worse.
The others had a better results with development.
If you check the BMW updates, they had many, but none had much effect.
Dr.T and W.Rampf confirm this in many interviews.
Another big factor is the many many mistakes made by drivers of the top 2 teams during the first part of the season.
The mistakes are another valid point of comparison between NH /RK and the considered "stars". In that respect our guys are solid.

Id rather have rosberg in my car than either bmw driver.

Thats great. Whats your car? Honda civic?

Id rather have Nicole Schrezinger in my car if you ask me.

It's a bandwagon...

You know thats "half empty, half full" framing problem. In F1 every measure is relative to the others. In relation to others car was slower in second part, no matter Nick or robert driven it.

I agree...plus the "mistakes" by others part.

and you are the boss of which F1 team?
actual F1 team bosses might disagree with the opinion.

Kubica is driver that is blown out of proportion, he is exotic, he is refreshing, he reminds of Gargamel and as such he has charisma and character something that majority of drivers are lacking.

But regarding speed he is in the same category as Webber, HEidfeld, Glock, Trulli etc

Fact: Heidfeld was faster than Raikkonen in the same car
Fact: Heidfeld was faster than Massa in the same car
Fact: Heidfeld was faster than Glock in the same car
Fact: Heidfeld was faster than JV in the same car
Fact: Kubica was faster than HAM, VET and ROS, in other series before F1
Fact: Kubica has in 2008 so much points like RAI, having a worse car (speed on straight and corners was in every race worse than Ferraris and Maccas)
Fact: Kubica make ONE mistake in the 2008 season, how much spin-out and other stupid mistakes has massa and hamilton in their first no-TC season?

So how the hell you could put RK/NH to the same category like Glock/Trulli etc.?
Please explain, I'm really curious.
I assume you think that ROS is the fastest out of the no-stars in F1?

I hear often on this forum what a fabulous driver Nick is.
He has beaten all his teammates and all that.

But why hasn't any top team hired him? Ever?
(Ok, BMW last year was arguably a top team, but Nick was there before they were a top team.)
Mercedes hired Kimi instead of Nick in 02, despite Nick being a Mercedes driver. And I've never heard he's been close to a deal with any of the top teams.
Why is that? Is he just overlooked because of bad luck? Or do teambosses know something fans don't?

I remember many Fisi fans, pre 05, saying what a great driver Fisi was who has beaten all his teammates. But given a top car he failed to deliver.
Is it something similair with Nick or is it something else that prevents him from getting a top drive?

the "I" word would be fitting, but I'm polite guy

The NH/JV time together is one of those of interesting situations that because it ended acrimoniously for one half of the pairing it's assumed that he was pants. Jacques actually outqualified Nick 7-5, however Nick did have twice as much points as Jacques.