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Peat
QUOTE (Jedi_F1 @ Feb 10 2010, 19:03) *
Curious how such a car would act in the corkscrew at Laguna Seca ohwell.gif



Well, its a good job the IRL doesnt go to decent tracks then isn't it?
PayasYouRace
QUOTE (Jedi_F1 @ Feb 10 2010, 20:03) *
Curious how such a car would act in the corkscrew at Laguna Seca ohwell.gif


In my head it topples over hilariously on the right hander.
wewantourdarbyback
I think it bottoms out over the brow and ends up trapped in a see saw on the lip of the hill.
PayasYouRace
Having read the autosport.com article ( http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81386 ) it seems that they might have done their homework on it a little. Certainly it would take a lot of getting used to. Like getting used the the new F1 wings, but a lot harder.
sblick
Going into the website a lot was thought about including crash structures. Long Beach had to considered so it has to make a hairpin. Does anybody know if it will stay in Chicago for the Auto Show?
ezequiel
The Delta concept reminds me of Scalabroni's radical F1 and Indy concepts from the mid 90s. This was his F1 car. I couldnt find an image of the Indy project, but it was quite similar to it.

wewantourdarbyback
I kinda wish they could all get a tender, let the teams pick who they each want to go with.... Never has such a variety of design been seen on the same track.
juicy sushi
QUOTE (Risil @ Feb 10 2010, 12:56) *
What the hell? Is Barnhart that reliant on Dallara kickbacks? I can understand why he'd oppose the Delta Wing, as it's some kind of CARTunioncommunist plot to unseat IMS from power, but Swift and Lola are in more or less the same position as Dallara.

The man apparently just doesn't react well to outside ideas, or indeed, anything from anyone else that threatens his position within IndyCar. à

At this point, I'm not sure what to say. It's maybe a step too far, but I'd need to see it on the track first. My main problem is that it looks too much like something a 70 year old man with dreams of the 60s would do. Jet-age just don't quite cut it anymore. The goals behind it are correct, I just think the conclusion involves too much nostalgia on first glance.

I think though, that if you made the goals the designer talks about into rules, and then let someone else design a car to meet those goals (possibly Swift, since they seem to have an ability to match aesthetics with performance), we might have something more attactive, in the conventional sense.
whitewaterMkII
That better be one huge tyre at the front on forks.
All I see is HUGE push on any kind of a corner.
What a joke.
Saddens me even more that I already am about the state of USOW.
cry.gif
Docc
Good grief..

I am not a designer..or constructor..but..holy shit is that weird.
Looks like a lot of rear steer with that wide rear..small front track..

But what do I know..

ey Specifications (estimated)

* Weight with driver: 1,030 lbs.
* Horsepower: 300 BHP
* Wheel base: 125 inches
* Front track: 24 inches
* Rear track: 70 inches
* Aerodynamic drag: Cd 0.24

Craig Breedlove..we have your car ready...
Heasven
QUOTE (chdphd @ Feb 10 2010, 17:53) *





Holy CRAPWAGON Batman !!

roflmao.gif roflmao.gif roflmao.gif
rmac923
QUOTE (Heasven @ Feb 10 2010, 14:41) *
Holy CRAPWAGON Batman !!

roflmao.gif roflmao.gif roflmao.gif


Forget Crapwagon, how the **** are you supposed to steer? The front wheels are so close to each other, it would make sharp turns impossible.

I'm liking that stealth bomber design more and more...
domhnall
Indycar going for the land speed record!! Bizzare looking thing but i like to some imagination in designs. Initial impressions are it could work on an oval, but road courses?? Maybe it's just the shape, but it seems to be really long too.
jeze
It looks like an aeroplane? That's no race car confused.gif
Sausage
OMFG mad.gif eek.gif
Docc
Wait a second...

blurgle..bbrg..ah..


Nope..still looks fricken bizzzzzzzzare...

Pass the bong...maybe in a few more hit..I mean minutes...


FlatOverCrest
I think the April 1st gag seems to arrived a bit early!

Good design for the salt flats of Utah, but racing single seater from 2012... I think not...
Risil
I don't care what people say. It's awesome. If the Indianapolis 500 isn't about invoking the spirit of '50s futurism, I'd like to know what it does entail. Forget A1GP Cup of Nations crap, this is the first new idea in auto racing since NASCAR standardised the cars and kept them looking like different makes of sedan. I'd like to see it on the track though -- if it doesn't do what it's supposed to then it's obviously failed.
Xaus
hahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaa

*looks at pictures again*

......ahahahahahahahhaha!

Come /on/ how the **** is that thing supposed to work on the tight street corners?!

Did they completely forget that IRL isn't 100% ovals? I... I have no idea what to say.
Risil
QUOTE (Xaus @ Feb 10 2010, 20:36) *
Come /on/ how the **** is that thing supposed to work on the tight street corners?!

Did they completely forget that IRL isn't 100% ovals? I... I have no idea what to say.


Maybe you shouldn't say anything until you've seen the car negotiate said tight corner. smile.gif
sblick
It would be a real idiot move by Ganassi not to consider Long Beach
red stick
QUOTE (domhnall @ Feb 10 2010, 13:50) *
Indycar going for the land speed record!! Bizzare looking thing but i like to some imagination in designs. Initial impressions are it could work on an oval, but road courses?? Maybe it's just the shape, but it seems to be really long too.


It's evidently the shape. The Dallara has a 122 inch wheelbase and a 192 inch length; the Delta Wing a 125 wheelbase and, based on the proportions, probably similar length. It's also significantly lighter, which is a plus.

The notion that Ganassi, et al, would design a car incapable of racing on the current tracks strikes me as ridiculous. If you want to judge it on aesthetics, fine. But question the engineering? There's a reason Ganassi, Penske, and Andretti have several championships and we don't. wink.gif
red stick
QUOTE (Risil @ Feb 10 2010, 14:35) *
I don't care what people say. It's awesome. If the Indianapolis 500 isn't about invoking the spirit of '50s futurism, I'd like to know what it does entail.


up.gif

If they select this, every third grade boy will be drawing it on his notebook. That's buzz!
Collective
It looks like crap. The racing will have to be freaking spectacular to make me overlook that much ugliness.
red stick
QUOTE (Collective @ Feb 10 2010, 14:43) *
It looks like crap. The racing will have to be freaking spectacular to make me overlook that much ugliness.


Releasing photos in silver didn't help. I want to see the Target and Team Penske versions.
domhnall
QUOTE (red stick @ Feb 10 2010, 20:39) *
It's evidently the shape. The Dallara has a 122 inch wheelbase and a 192 inch length; the Delta Wing a 125 wheelbase and, based on the proportions, probably similar length. It's also significantly lighter, which is a plus.

The notion that Ganassi, et al, would design a car incapable of racing on the current tracks strikes me as ridiculous. If you want to judge it on aesthetics, fine. But question the engineering? There's a reason Ganassi, Penske, and Andretti have several championships and we don't. wink.gif


No, you're dead right. You can't rule anything out on a hunch or by just looking at a few CAD images. At the same time it's a bad attitude to just accept something and not ask important questions, especially on an issue as important as this.
fer312t
And here's a non-cgi photo...

red stick
From Marshall Pruett's last column:

QUOTE
. . .but as far as I’m concerned, anyone that stands in the way of progress, or prefers to paint things as better than they are, is acting as an enabler to the IndyCar Series. IndyCar isn’t dying, but it is withering at an alarming rate thanks to some poor decision making and some rather shady practices of late. The manner by which the 2012 car has been handled is the latest cock-up to emerge.

The Delta Wings were the first to present a total concept to the League, but were met with skepticism from the outset. After a year’s work in the design and simulation of his 2012 car, Ben Bowlby was still branded as a lunatic by IndyCar for his radical new creation.

One of the top engineers in the IndyCar paddock with full knowledge of the situation called me on Friday to say, “Bowlby’s last Lola ChampCar was the easiest car to make go fast I’ve ever worked with. You could put it in the top-5 with half a brain. The thing was fast, reliable, and had a huge setup window. I don’t get why [IndyCar] have convinced themselves otherwise. Ben knows what he’s doing and has the history to back it up.”


(Bowlby is the Delta Wing designer).

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/pru...riple-stint-29/
Nustang70
QUOTE (red stick @ Feb 10 2010, 21:39) *
The notion that Ganassi, et al, would design a car incapable of racing on the current tracks strikes me as ridiculous. If you want to judge it on aesthetics, fine. But question the engineering? There's a reason Ganassi, Penske, and Andretti have several championships and we don't. wink.gif


up.gif

Slowinfastout
I'm sorry but that looks absolutely ridiculous to me... the Formula Nippon lookalike is infinitely better if the principle of form-follows-function isn't too important..
Ruud de la Rosa
QUOTE (Nustang70 @ Feb 10 2010, 21:50) *
up.gif

it's peoples nature to dislike change. Nobody would ever get used to the big front and high rear wings of formula1 from last year. Just read back in the forum to when the original atlasf1 frontpage changed. It's the same with this radical car design.
I don't like it yet, but I never really watch indycar. If they ran these cars I would definitely watch!
Xaus
QUOTE (Risil @ Feb 10 2010, 15:37) *
Maybe you shouldn't say anything until you've seen the car negotiate said tight corner. smile.gif

I'm just having an incredibly hard time picturing this thing turning into a chicane at speed without understeering straight off the road. Are the front tires actually going to be that narrow? I suppose they're going to be seeing how its integral to the design of the front. And then there's the front axle track of the whole thing.

I'll bet my HORSE that IndyCar won't pick this design...
red stick
More from Pruett's column:
QUOTE
I’ve worked with Lola, Dallara and Swift, and they are all capable and distinguished manufacturers. From my perspective, I’d love to see four new 2012 cars from the aforementioned constructors, and believe each one would bring high levels of quality and creativity to a form of motorsport that sorely needs it.

It wasn’t so long ago when Dallara, GForce, and Riley & Scott shared the IRL marketplace, and they all peacefully co-existed. The three also won IRL titles, further proving that choice is good and shouldn’t be ignored with the next generation of designs. A spec chassis isn’t what we need. Four different chassis that meet a certain spec is where the League needs to go, and looking at how devastated the American open-wheel job market has been, multiple IndyCar constructors would pull a lot of talented people out of the unemployment line.

But where things spin out of control is when I see the League’s attempt to marginalize the group that created the blueprint for 2012, and then embrace those that have followed behind them.

As one veteran team owner said to me on Saturday, “It’s a dirty, dirty game of pool IndyCar is playing right now.”

Whether you like the cars or not, NASCAR was able to devise a plan to build and implement the Car of Tomorrow, and get it on track in a short amount of time. F1 threw out their old rule book and crafted a new car for 2009 that delivered incredible racing, and ChampCar did the same in 2007 with the Panoz DP01.

The precedent was set by three major series within the past few years to recognize a need for a new car, to act on that need, to carry it from the design phase to completion, and then go racing with those new cars in a very reasonable timeframe.

With the IndyCar Series, that precedent had been lost or forgotten. The current Dallara has become so old, it is just a few years away from being accepted in most vintage racing series.

(I’m not kidding on this one. The window for vintage eligibility is usually 10 years after the date of construction…by 2012, the current Dallara would be eligible to run at the Indy 500 and the Monterey Historics.)

So much time passed without action by the League, their entrants got fed up and fashioned a design of their own. Inaction by the organizers led to not just action by the paddock, but a newfound unity that hasn’t always existed.

If you look at the paddock as Labor and the League as Management, Labor feels their big idea was just copied by the men upstairs, and we should be thankful that the paddock hasn’t formed a Union, or they would likely be on strike at this moment.

For anyone that believes this IndyCar Labor and Management issue has something to do with vendettas, an old feud between CART and the IRL, or anything else tied to the past, it simply doesn’t. This is brand new.

The Car of 2012 rift is about today, not yesterday or yesteryear, and has nothing to do with The Split, Unification, IMS or Tony George. Within the past few months, the League has found an opportunity to create an open wound where one had not previously existed.

No matter where your loyalties reside – the League, the Delta Wings, Dallara, Lola, Swift, CART, ChampCar, USAC, AAA, or elsewhere – the only loyalty I can think of that matters is a dedication to the health and growth of IndyCar racing.

Once the League realizes that the road to prosperity begins with removing the wedge they’ve placed between themselves and the paddock, real forward progress can be made.
The Delta Wings tell me they will keep reaching out to the series in the hope that the League’s frosty reception will eventually thaw. We’ll soon learn how long they will continue to turn the other check.

The paddock wants to be a player in the 2012 solution, not a customer to whatever the League comes up with. If there’s one message to receive and remember, this is it.

Another point of distinction is that the Delta Wings want to provide a solution, not the solution. A lot more will be shared in their presentation at the Chicago Auto Show, but the IndyCar of Tomorrow they’ve been pitching for over a year now – what has become the 2012 car – has never been about becoming the sole supplier.

The Delta Wings have shown they are capable of producing their own car, and if the League treats them as anything less than a full partner in the 2012 process, putting this genie back in the bottle will be impossible. This group of wealthy and powerful team owners won’t simply wipe the Delta Wing project off their hard drives and sit idly by as they wait for IndyCar to tell them what cars to purchase for 2012.

The paddock wants a seat at the table – just like the F1 entrants did which resulted in the Concorde Agreement, and as the USAC entrants did which spawned Gurney’s White Paper. Whether you side with Labor or Management, history has shown us that if Labor doesn’t get what it wants, it tends to go elsewhere.

Unless the League has 20 cars and a whole new ownership base waiting in the wings, I’d recommend they pull out a chair and invite the Delta Wings to be seated.


Welcome to Indycar, Mr. Bernard.
boomer1
QUOTE (Risil @ Feb 10 2010, 15:35) *
I don't care what people say. It's awesome. If the Indianapolis 500 isn't about invoking the spirit of '50s futurism, I'd like to know what it does entail. Forget A1GP Cup of Nations crap, this is the first new idea in auto racing since NASCAR standardised the cars and kept them looking like different makes of sedan. I'd like to see it on the track though -- if it doesn't do what it's supposed to then it's obviously failed.

How about '10s futurism, or even '00s futurism? How about something we have never seen before, not something that brings to mind Batmobiles and the salt flats? I thought we were in for something radical. This car is a bizarre throwback more than anything.
red stick
QUOTE (boomer1 @ Feb 10 2010, 15:09) *
I thought we were in for something radical.


Nearly three pages of commentary since the photos appeared. I'd say you can check the "radical" box.
Risil
QUOTE (boomer1 @ Feb 10 2010, 21:09) *
How about '10s futurism, or even '00s futurism? How about something we have never seen before, not something that brings to mind Batmobiles and the salt flats? I thought we were in for something radical. This car is a bizarre throwback more than anything.


What is '10s futurism? Or even '00s futurism? It seems today's chrono-stylistic dreamers are more interested in bringing the past or present into the dystopic quasi-future. C.f. Steampunk. The pessimism of Blade Runner, Ghost in the Shell and Watchmen is all well and good, but I think secretly we'd all rather live with the Jetsons. lol.gif
Sausage
QUOTE (red stick @ Feb 10 2010, 22:09) *
More from Pruett's column:


Welcome to Indycar, Mr. Bernard.


So this ugly "car" is the beginning of a new split in AWOR? dear god.. not again. If the teambosses split they would have a series and car, heck they could call it CART. But again they won't have Indy. Maybe I should start to appreciate Tony some more drunk.gif
Les
That's one of the most interesting things I've seen for a long time and not to mention the strangest as well. Leftfield thinking is very welcome in motorsport but I could never seriously imagine a racing series featuring cars like these. Another thing - I consider it very ugly!
red stick
QUOTE (Sausage @ Feb 10 2010, 15:45) *
So this ugly "car" is the beginning of a new split in AWOR? dear god.. not again.


The car? No. The way that the Series has treated a group of persons interested in moving the Series forward and spending their own resources to do it while the Series dithered? Maybe.
senna da silva
All I can think of is massive amounts of understeer, that car would be undriveable!
917k
QUOTE (red stick @ Feb 10 2010, 21:29) *
Nearly three pages of commentary since the photos appeared. I'd say you can check the "radical" box.


And most of [deservedly IMO] negative. It's great to go after new fans but most of the old guard, including both sides of the split, HATE the thing.
jonpollak
Holy front end understeer Batman...

Jp
Burai
I love it. It's what we thought racing cars in the year 2012 would look like when we were kids.
feynman
i love it

it's a low-altitude SR-71. it fires the imagination just standing still ... i don't worry about the change-ophobes, even when that first guy was rubbing the sticks together at the back of the cave, people were probably complaining about him doing something new.

but all that man-car love aside, has anyone seen anything on steering ... i am not talking about understeer, or worried about the narrow track, i mean i dont see any means for the front wheels to change direction ... anyone know how they plan to get it to turn. fck it nevermind, i don't care, i'd just be happy to see 20 of them beauties howling round a huge radius track out in the salt flats chased by helicopters.
marcm
I don't know how they could make this car achieve modern single seater safety standards! Ever since the early 90s single seaters series have stipulated longer sidepods that come alongside the cockpit to give better side impact protection.

I realise that materials have improved a lot since then, but it certainly looks a lot more vunerable than anything currently racing. I bet if this design was selected it would look quite different from the concept by the time it hit the race track.
Risil
From Robin Miller's interview with Ben Bowlby:

QUOTE
The breakthrough was bringing the front wheels close to the center line of the chassis. This avoided the sports car look when shrouding the wheels for drag reduction and necessitated both the center of gravity and the center of aerodynamic pressure to be moved much more rearwards towards the widely spaced rear tires and away from the much narrower front track.


QUOTE
The biggest resistance for an Indy car is the drag of the exposed wheels and tires. At Indianapolis, 54 percent of the drag is the rotating wheels. By fairing the wheels there’s a huge gain in efficiency and a fantastic safety improvement from a contact standpoint.


QUOTE
The aero layout of the Delta Wing allows us to double the downforce by changing the height of the wicker on the top surface of the bodywork. And that can be achieved with $10 worth of aluminum


QUOTE
Today’s Indy car is an aerodynamic brick with a huge engine that spends its life burning fuel and components - it just shows how inefficient they are! That’s not surprising because for decades the regulations have mandated inefficiency as a way of controlling speed. Every significant efficiency improvement has been outlawed, whether it’s sliding skirts, active suspension or ground effects.


QUOTE
We propose to control the rate of fuel flow to the engine as the way to contain speed whilst maintaining efficiency – fuel flow will be our popoff valve or restrictor plate. It’s about who can get the most power to the crankshaft from the available fuel delivery rate, and I believe we can create a control device in a way that’s unlikely to be cheated. [...] With fuel flow control you don’t need to limit configuration or capacity or cylinders or turbos - you just have to get the most HP from the available fuel.


QUOTE
Personally, I don’t want to watch 33 spec cars at the Indy 500 and there are lots of people I’ve spoken to who agree, who want technical diversity and technical stories. Our intention is to provide a platform for sustainable development of the cars and exclude NO ONE who designs or makes quality racing car parts; Lola, Swift, Dallara, local suppliers, the auto industry and so on. This is America’s premier status single seater formula we are talking about, it needs to be remarkable!


In summary, the features of this car are EXACTLY what every motor racing purist across almost every series, from F1 to MotoGP, has been clamouring for. And it's being designed by an extremely capable group of engineers. With the Indy 500 behind it -- arguably still the world's pre-eminent motor race -- this could be really revolutionary.
pingu666
i like it smile.gif, I like the other swift design aswell.

I guess the biggest concern I have is how well it can handle corners, and it does remind me of sidecar racing abit aswell.

I think the new indycars have got to look fantastic and interesting

wouldnt like tobe a front tyre changer tho xD
Slowinfastout
QUOTE (feynman @ Feb 10 2010, 17:11) *
... i mean i dont see any means for the front wheels to change direction ... anyone know how they plan to get it to turn. fck it nevermind, i don't care ....


up.gif lol.gif
OnyxF1
I love that car, it looks fantastic. Very radical indeed. Plus, Ben Bowlby is a smart guy, he seems to have the right idea about what Indy Car racing should be. The current Indy Car Series is an embarrassment to the past of AOWR. Still, I'd imagine Dallara will get the rights, they seem to be pretty tight with the League's big cheeses.
qwazy
QUOTE (red stick @ Feb 10 2010, 21:43) *
up.gif

If they select this, every third grade boy will be drawing it on his notebook. That's buzz!



You've obviously never seen Superbad;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q29NmesM8a4

Superbad beat Ben Bowlby to the punch.
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