As noted previously, it can be used at the last race of the season.

I think this is utter B.S. They have been working on the car for a year and a half and now this????
Bring back Ross please. sigh

Did you notice Schumi also pulled over to the side of track?

I don't think it's a coincidence that the engine blew up after a whole race of having to floor the gas pedal to engage the gearbox and right after a late braking maneuver that may have zinged the engine.

The crankshafts on these engines are finely tuned to avoid torsion vibrations which affect the life of the crank. I don't think those downshifts helped.

The Sauber failures sound like they may be related to a bad batch of parts for the pneumatic valve system.

You sure? From what I have read in other forums, Ferrari used new engines on both cars for this weekend.

Regarding Ferrari working on their own fduct iteration, I wouldn't be surprised to see something more akin to the good old flush NACA duct.




Are there dis/advantages in using a protruding scoop as opposed to an aerodynamically friendlier vent? I would think if the flow rates are similar, countersunk is the way to go.

We'll see soon I guess.

I know the engines can be used, but are they actually fit for use? Have they been using them in FP or have they quietly been binned?

Alonso's view on F10 prospects

In fairness to Alonso, this was what he actually said:

Slits in the diffuser in R30 style, F-duct and more sophisticated rear ride height mechanism.
Can't usually point out so many things a car can improve on which are so obvious, there is a lot more performance to come from the F10, only the f-duct is a maybe but that probably gains the smallest step of the above improvements.

The thing is you're expecting some of the engines that are 1/2 on their mileage to last much more than the other ones, such as the one the blew up in Malaysia.

I'll insist. After some 12 races Ferrari will be starting every race 10 places back on the grid.

Your insistence at the moment seems to rely more on your attitude towards Ferrari as a McLaren fan than on any solid information about how serious the problem is. I remember Ferrari going through several engines in Malaysia in 2006 only to recover and mount quite a challenge for both titles after that. Why would Ferrari get a penalty in every race once they exceed the number of allowed engines? Can't they use a ninth engine in the last 2 rounds for example and incur the penalty only in the first race, why take the hit twice if it's the same engine?

Wishful thinking on your part, I'm afraid. We saw teams last year with equally bad problems with engines who made it to the end ok.

It'll be a struggle, but its really not the end of the world as long as they dont keep blowing engines. Cooler conditions will help, I think.

Anyways, Alonso:

"We know in which areas we need to improve the car, so I'm more or less confident that we can have the best car in the next few races"

Awesome.

I have highlighted for you how it's different. He wrote: "...Nando blown his THIRD engine away and I hope situation with Masa's one is close to the same "

This is a perfect illustration of the very minute fine line that exists between some forumers' opinions vs. their "wishful thinking". It's been occuring quite frequently in this forum especially with respect to Ferrari's demise because they no longer have the "dream team" of competent people that can run an F1 team properly (despite the fact that these incompetent people won 50% of the last 6 titles after RB and MS left the team). But I do like the entertainment value that results from it.

And you feel the constant need to bring 'down to earth' the posters in the McLaren MP4-25 thread.

Yeah, dude, cool awesome man, surf dude!

I dont go in the Mclaren thread claiming that they *will* do this/that or whatever, do I? I just keep open the possibilities, and I post positive as well as negative impressions. Here, I dont see the problem. Alonso is confident of having the best car soon, and thats a good thing. I'm not believing that it *will* happen, just recognizing his confidence. I fully realize that it may not happen, and I'm not going to go into 'defense-mode' if somebody tries to put forth a reasonable argument that it wont happen, either.

So, do you have anything worthwhile to contribute or are you here just to try and accuse me of hypocrisy?

They should be able to manage it as Red Bull did last year - maybe skipping a few test session. Assuming the unreliability gets sorted sooner rather than later.

Just hypocrisy

Too bad the rest of the races aren't run at Melbourne, where it's raining and cool and not far from Winter, June. But soon Europe shall boil...

And by no surprise, you failed, too.

Please go away if your only reason for being here it to stir up trouble. As much as I'm accused of doing so, at least I try and contribute to the topic at the same time. You're just pretty much trolling at this point.

Sportbild:

- Stefano Domenicali confirmed that Ferrari started with the development of the 2011 car "Next year´s car will be a whole new project because of the DD ban"
- they are very happy with Felipe Massa, contract extension is expected soon.

Hope the rules for 2011 will soon become clear then. Tyres, KERS, etc.

1- In 2006 there was no homologation and no limitations regarding number of engines being used.
2- 2010 rules say that each engine from the 9th one, you get a penalty on the starting grid of the race the 9th, 10th or 11th (etc) engine introduction and on the next event. Those are called sporting regulations and you might get a read on them at the FIA's website.

And why am I saying so? Alonso has used 3 engines: one (the first useed in practrice and in qual at Sakhir) Ferrari themselves said they can only be used for practice as it got alarming readings. Another one has already blown. So they have a used engine that they will probably use at China. So they will have 5 engines for the last 15 races.

Do you really think that an engine (remember that engines are homologated) that was not able to sustain more than a full race weekend (considering that it can finish the Chinese GP) will be able to sustain 3 full race weekends on average, including the blasts at Hockenheim, Monza, Spa and Silverstone?I do not think so.

So I'll give Ferrari the benefit of the doubt and claim that those last 5 engines shall resist for some 2 full weekends each. Therefore, for the last 5 races they will have to go for extra engines and will probabley be taking penalties on each of them.

5 engines left, 15 races to go. Do you really find it feasible for each of those engines to last 3 full race weekends?

Brazilian TV says that a 3-year contract extension for Massa is already on the table for negotiations.

Yea - Button won 3 GP with 1 engine last year. And some GP are less hard than others. As I said maybe that some practice sessions will have o be skipped like Vettel did last year.

Ok, but that was the Mercedes engine that had one failure at the back of a Force India last year.

The Ferrari engine has already collapsed multiple times this year both at the back the Saubers and the Ferraris themselves.

Edit: And that was one specific unit and that cycle included Monaco, the less stessful weekend. Do you think that a unit can do Monza or Spa + 2 extra races weekends?

I think the safety net has now gone and any more failures would be a big problem. But for now it's just about manageable.

[Quote name = 'fecha de Urawa' = '6 de abril 2010, 17:19 post' = '4277060 ']
Sportbild:

- Stefano Domenicali Ferrari confirmó que se inició con el desarrollo del coche 2011 "coche del año que viene será un proyecto totalmente nuevo debido a la prohibición DD"
- Están muy contentos con Felipe Massa, extensión de contrato se espera en breve.
[/ Quote]




Link, please????

I'm very doubt this info. Ferrari would use the same trick like in 2007 - help his teammate and you get another contract.

So Ferrari are too stupid to think an engine or two might become unusable during the course of a season. They placed all their eggs in 8 baskets and might as well not turn up for the rest of the year?

Starting 10th every race would still be better than where they started 2/3's of the races so far and they are leading the championship...really not scaring me with this talk

There has also been rumours that Ferrari would like to get Kubica. Still, Eric Boullier said Robert is very committed to Renault team, so is he unwilling to pair Fred at Santander-backed Ferrari. Or are Ferrari trying to secure that at least one of their current drivers will drive for them next year. If Felipe is ahead of Fred at the end of the season, will Fred want to drive for Ferrari next season.

Kubica and Alonso together would be Lewis and Alonso mk2. Two leaders in one team very rarely work.

No way Ferrari will run Kubica and Alonso at the same time. It's a bit of running Kimi and Alonso. They prefer a clear hierarchy.

So who's better than Massa to perform the good number 2 role now that they have seen that he is fully recuperated from his accident last year and that Alonso already took the leader role without many complains inside the team?
Kovalainen, Trulli or Glock would do fine but they already have a established inside gowned Massa.

I for one would prefer a guy like Kobayashi.

Except there were grid penalties for changing an engine in 2006. My point was that Ferrari got on top of their reliability problems after the disaster in Malaysia in 2006 when they used 3 engines in one weekend just between MS and Massa, how do you know they won't resolve the problem in 2010?
You said they will be taking grid penalties after 12 races at every race. What if they manage to do 13 or 14 races with what they currently have before asking for a 9th engine? What if they use Alonso's 9th engine over the last three weekends in combination with one or more of the first 8 units? You may want to read the regulations on FIA's website which state "he will drop 10 places at the First event during which each additional engine is used". The following event stuff you are talking about assumes more than one engine will be used outside of the 8 allocated.
There are many scenarios that can unfold, you just chose one according to your wishes.

Are you sure they could start every race from 10th place (always first and second in quali) but not from 12-15 on the grid
You've forgotten Red Bul,McLaren and hopefuly MGP

I don't think so. Even if they can make China without the need of launching the 4th engine for Alonso, they still have to do 15 races on 5 engines. That's non-feasiable, I'm sorry.

In 2006 engines were free to be changed during the season. Now the engines are HOMOLOGATED, they cannot be changed. So, for example, if Ferrari has been too aggressive with the cooling needs when designing the chassis, ina bid to get more downforce, they will have to compromise somewhere else, for instance, on engine revs/power.

And I'm so sorry you didn't read FIA F1 2010 Sporting Regulations (version updated on February 10th, 2010)

28.4 a) Each driver may use no more than eight engines during a Championship season. Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used. If two such additional engines are used during a single Event the driver concerned will drop ten places on the starting grid at that Event and at the following Event.

Yup, as expected. I think Ferrari should be pretty good with this, too. Their 2009 car was actually the 2nd best car without DDD at the start of the season, and they also had KERS which likely compromised the design.

My biggest concern about 2011 is tires. Ferrari are gonna have to start fresh with a new tire manufacturer, and they haven't done this since the 1999 season. I have trust that Ferrari will adapt, but I think there's potential for a 'warm up period', which could hamper them initially. We'll see.

I agree it's marginal - but am not ready to say Alonso is in trouble yet. I wander if cantering the engine at 3 degrees has hampered the reliability in an unforeseen way.

I think everyone will go with red-bull style pull-rod suspension which could dramatically change the playing field. The Aero guy from the F60 2009 car now works for Mercedes I think.

That might a problem, but you have to consider they had to swap pneumatic parts on both Ferraris on parc fermé and both Saubers had pneumatic problems that blew up their engines...

There's only one blown engine. The other 7 are still useable. 6 of them useable for races.

And even if it was only 5 engines for 15 races, thats still feasible. Not easy, but do-able. Red Bull and BMW struggled similarly last year.

Again, its just wishful thinking on your part. You desperately want to find a way to say that Ferrari are doomed, but its just not the case. I hate to break it to you, but Ferrari might actually be ok.

I dont think any team will change rear suspension layout unless they find an advantage in doing so. Too many people make a deal out of Red Bull's pull-rod suspension, when in reality, its not inherently superior to push-rod, its just *different*. It works with what Red Bull has got going on, but another team might not find its particular characteristics desirable with the car design they have in mind.

Just an example of how it could work

Engine 1 - Destroyed - might be able to do practice but might be too damaged.
Engine 2 - Bahrain (prob used in low impact races) + China??
Engine 3 - Aus + Mal (Destroyed)
Engine 4 - Spain, Monaco, Turkey
Engine 5 - Canada, Europe, Great Britain
Engine 6 - Germany, Hungary, Belgium
Engine 7 - Italy, Singapore, Japan
Engine 8 - Korea, Brazil, Abu Dhabi

The season is 1 race longer so i think it'll be okay but as Vettel did Fernando might have to sit out the odd practice session and rely on Massa to do the legwork on tyre evaluation etc - as I say I think that the safety net has now gone.



I think the packaging is a lot better on pullrods the reason most teams have stayed with pushrods is it's easier to fit around the DDD but that wont be a problem - we'll see

Massa hasn't got that much extra mileage. The only difference he has is that his 3rd engine hasn't blown up. And 2010 is 2 races longer than 2009. And I doubt this Ferrari engine that hasn't been able to go 2 full race weekends would be able to sustain, for example, what you write for engines 6 and 7, both cycles wich cover major power races such as Germany, Belgium, Italy and Japan, not to mention Hungary's heat which is soemthign that led Ferrari into troubles.

Anyone here might say whatever they want and Ferrari may somehow perform a miracle to make those engines last.

But since engines are HOMOLOGATED, I don't think Alonso and Massa will make to the end of the season without the need of some 2 or 3 extra engines.

But as Kimi has always said, we will see what happens.

Did the Sauber engines blow?

Depends if they are allowed to apply reliability fixes to the earlier reliability fixes.

No, they weren't free to be changed - each change that Ferrari made in Malaysia 2006 resulted in a ten place grid penalty My point was and still is - despite running through three engines that weekend, Ferrari still got on top of the problem and were mostly problem-free for the rest of the season.

And I am so sorry you can read but not comprehend - Should a driver use more than eight engines he will drop ten places on the starting grid at the first Event during which each additional engine is used. That is not the same as your earlier claim that they automatically get a penalty at the engine introduction and the next event, i.e. 2 races. And is not even close to your outrageous claim that

I'll insist. After some 12 races Ferrari will be starting every race 10 places back on the grid.

Please tell us how would Ferrari start every race ten places back if Alonso uses only 9 engines?

John Iley?

Well as i understand it's not so bad, you are going to be penalised in the first event you use the engine, but you can do 3 races with that engine, so ferrari can elect to use that engine when they qualify at the back of the grid or similar. i mean... it's not the end of the world, look at what happened in malaysia, the championship is still open, you'll have bad races in the season as red bull or ferrari already had

Regards

Cool F1 guitar video :

http://www.malgusto.com/videos/201004_ruid...n-guitarra.html