I guess he thought you had to research the rule as the one you used was actually OUT OF DATE!

I encourage you to review the REVISED sporting code and make note of the changes, displayed in pink!
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/2...09_09.07.20.pdf

The TWO key sections to note are;
Section IV - CODE OF DRIVING CONDUCT ON CIRCUITS
Paragraph 2b and 2c

I'll quote and have highlighted in BOLD the key areas of relevance to this arguement:


First and foremost, Sutil had to react to the actions of another driver (Kimi) who frankly should have pulled to the side a lot faster than he did with a clearly damaged car.

Secondly, there is arguement that Sutil crowded Trulli out. If you look clearly at the first pictures, Trulli is clearly "offline" on the outside of the corner in a position that is not considered an overtaking spot and at no point is he considered ahead, when he does not hold the rightful line to the corner. It is also clearly shown that at no point, does Sutil bang wheels with or even touch Trulli's wheels and therefore "crowding" is almost impossible to prove. If you are then trying to assert that a driver that goes "offline" to achieve a wildly optimistic overtake, should be given the benefit of the doubt, then you seriously do not understand the principles by which every racing driver trys to adhere to.
You also mention that Trulli had the momentum around the outside and therefore should have been allowed to take the corner. Again....not even vaguely true. Unless Sutil had a hidden boost button having lifted to avoid Kimi, how on earth if Trulli had greater momentum, does Sutil then maintain position alongside Trulli? The fact is, Trulli did not have the momentum discussed and was not only using the dirty edge of the track BUT CHOSE to run the length of the curbs...which leads me to the next point...

Thirdly.... paragraph 2c clearly states that NO COMPETITOR may use the curbs for whatever reason... not any sensible 'judge of fact' will say...."well he ran out of room so he was entitled to run the curbs". USE the curb to avoid going off yes... USE them to continue to try to gain advantage HELL NO.
HOWEVER and this is the guilty verdict for Trulli.... if having left the track which he did, he is entitled to rejoin ONLY WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO AND NOT FOR AN ADVANTAGE!!!!
So no he cannot use the curbs to gain advantage, NO he cannot then having gone off, continue at race speed with foot in along the curbs as this is considered "offcourse" and NO he may not continue to try to gain advantage by keeping his foot in...which then when he ran out of curb, hit grass, spinning the car INTO another competitor!!!!!!!

IN SHORT..............
Some might try to argue that Sutil crowded Trulli out. Fair enough that may be arguemet to be decided by the race stewards upon appeal by the team, but in my personal opinion, as there was no contact, would be extremely hard to prove.

THE BLAME for the "ACCIDENT", has no place other than at Trulli's door. For whatever reason he ran onto the curbs... HE CHOSE to keep the throttle buried, when he should have lifted, rejoined behind Sutil and made an immediate complaint over the radio for crowding to the race stewards. By doing this, both he, Sutil and Alonso (a complete bystander in this) would have still been racing and the world championship may have had a different result for that day!!!

Instead...HE (Trulli) made the only DANGEROUS decision by keeping his foot in, in a clear dose of rage, that endangered himself and those drivers around him.

FACTS cannot be twisted...yes he may feel aggrieved, but he should have lifted...he didnt and HE caused the accident when he lost control of HIS car hitting another competitor rightly positioned on the track.

As I said before, if anyone does not understand this, that is fine, but please do not ever go on a race track as you do not understand the basic principles of risk and danger to your fellow competitors.

EVERYONE of us will fight for the last second, but acts of gross stupidity, deserve appropriate action and that is something for the FIA to look into not with Sutil (on this occasion) but with Trulli!

It was an idiot long shot move to begin with, followed by an even more idiotic decision mid event, followed by EVEN more idiotic behaviour out of the car.

Trulli = Guilty! Period.

Trulli is clearly "offline" on the outside of the corner in a position that is not considered an overtaking spot and at no point is he considered ahead, when he does not hold the rightful line to the corner.

It is also clearly shown that at no point, does Sutil bang wheels with or even touch Trulli's wheels and therefore "crowding" is almost impossible to prove.

You also mention that Trulli had the momentum around the outside and therefore should have been allowed to take the corner.

Trulli did not have the momentum discussed and was not only using the dirty edge of the track BUT CHOSE to run the length of the curbs

paragraph 2c clearly states that NO COMPETITOR may use the curbs for whatever reason

HOWEVER and this is the guilty verdict for Trulli.... if having left the track which he did, he is entitled to rejoin ONLY WHEN IT IS SAFE TO DO SO AND NOT FOR AN ADVANTAGE!!!!

FACTS cannot be twisted..

EVERYONE of us will fight for the last second, but acts of gross stupidity, deserve appropriate action

No he did not. He was crowded onto the kerbs which is in fact off the track as you well point out yourself.

I will just post this image again so it's on the same page with the above ones:



If someone believes Sutil is forcing Trulli onto the grass here then, well, whatever, arguing is pointless. If you happen to think so, here's a site you will surely enjoy.

It was going into the corner which is a flat out corner that Sutil didn't give enough room, that picture means nothing

Sutil afterall never saw Trulli or that is what he claimed.....convenient maybe...

It was going into the corner which is a flat out corner that Sutil didn't give enough room, that picture means nothing

Sutil afterall never saw Trulli or that is what he claimed.....convenient maybe...

Why should Sutil give room for someone who wasn't even beside him at the time?! I mean, who in their right mind would go around the outside in turn 5? Trulli was only asking for trouble

Overtaking at the outside is never safe, the car on the inside is normally physically unable to leave as much space as Sutil did here (and that was because he had to slow down to avoid Kimi's damaged car. No driver looks at the outside mirror in the turn and if even he did, he would not see a thing. That corner is by the way in no means flat out.

I love Trulli, but he was wrong here and he would really need to admit it.

It was going into the corner which is a flat out corner that Sutil didn't give enough room, that picture means nothing

Sutil afterall never saw Trulli or that is what he claimed.....convenient maybe...

Q. Adrian says he could not see you in the rear view mirror.

JT: Yeah, because I was next to him!


Maybe Adrian was blind and not Kimi who had reason to be blind later in the race.....

He was beside before entering the corner, Sutil said "I couldn't see him at all."

Couldn't see him at all? No wonder there was an accident.

On the way into the corner Trulli was full car behind and it was Sutil who had the racing line. Yes, Sutil was slower as he lifted to avoid crashing (an idea Trulli must be unfamiliar with) but that doesn't mean he was supposed to move off line to let Trulli through. Trulli went for a high risk move and executed it very poorly, you seriously think a driver in front is supposed to move off the racing line whenever he notices driver behind is about to try a move? Which is irrelevant anyway as Trulli lost it all on his own, there was no need to put the car as far to the right as he did.

You don't think Alonso was in a position to see Sutil wipe him out?

1:There is nothing called offline and online, there is nothing not considered an overtaking spot, and there is nothing called a rightful line to the corner during an overtaking situation.
2:Car contact is not the definition of crowding.
3:No I did not.
4:No he did not. He was crowded onto the kerbs which is in fact off the track as you well point out yourself.
5:No it does not.
6:He did not use the kerbs to gain advantage, he was squeezed onto them against his own will. This caused him to lose control of his car.
7:So why do you?
8:Agree, which is why Sutil deserved some kind of reaction for running Trulli off the track, even if it was not deliberate as it is very dangerous.

2c - Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt;
- the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track, but the curbs are not, and;

In post 92 it shows Trulli was beside Sutil before turning into the corner but he was moved onto the kerb and as Trulli said "once I was on the kerbs that car got unstable. I lifted off and then I hit him on the back"

If someone believes Sutil is forcing Trulli onto the grass here then, well, whatever, arguing is pointless. If you happen to think so, here's a site you will surely enjoy.

Why should Sutil give room for someone who wasn't even beside him at the time?!

you seriously think a driver in front is supposed to move off the racing line whenever he notices driver behind is about to try a move?

1: Really? there is nothing considered "offline"? Or a valid "overtaking spot", or a rightful line to a corner during overtaking?
In reality I should probably just stop there.... may I suggest a trip to a racing school and you will soon learn all these strange and exotic phrases....

2: Please enlighten us all then as to what "crowding" is then?

4: I clearly stated he was on the curbs FOR WHATEVER REASON....AT THIS POINT HE HAD A CHOICE!!!!! HE SHOULD HAVE LIFTED...period...I really dont care if you agree with that or not its the rules!

5: Read it again....Drivers may not use the curbs as the curbs are not considered part of the track...again...you cannot twist what is printed in black and white! Just to suit your arguement.
which bit of "the curbs are not" is causing you difficulty? he did not attempt a single turn off the curbs and instead tried to keep the car straight with FULL throttle....THAT was the single undeniable fact..

6: yes he did, because he didnt lift and did not lose control of the car "UNTIL" he ran out of curb and the full throttle then spun his right rear wheel. You do understand that nothing broke on the car, causing to suddenly spear left dont you?

8: Again with the infatuation that Sutil ran Trulli off the track.... If he had... the stewards would have called him after the race to explain himself...they didnt, its their opinion that counts..not yours.

IMO they both lack racecraft, the rest is unimportant..

Sutil backing off, instead of having a go at Kimi.

Trulli for not braking early enough. In the past, people went onto kerbs as well, but there's a little problem. The grass was wet. No matter if you're forced or not in your opinion, you have to get off the kerbs ASAP. But since nobody mentioned it. Had Trulli moved from the kerb away onto the race track, he'd ended up right behind Raikonnen. IMO he thought he had a go at Kimi at once, which isn't the dumbest idea, but well remember the grass was wet. This also explains why Sutil then run into Alonso. No traction on grass.

When the grass is wet, it provides almost no traction. Luciano Burti's horrible accident at Spa in 2001, is a proof if anyone needs it.

For the record. I voted 100% Trulli's fault, he is long enough in F1 to know about wet grass conditions. You have to get off the kerb ASAP. After all in 2001 Trulli was already in F1 when Burti crashed. That he forgets is probably an indication that he should call it quits. Sutil, shouldn't be in F1 either IMO.

Well I watched the replay several times and Trulli lost control when his car bottomed out on the kerbs there... Trulli never wanted to go that far over these kerbs, in fact nobody does it for reasons that are now way too obvious.. these kerbs are too nasty to be abused at full chat in 6th speed. The grass only came into this equation when the harm was done.. ( )

It's not clear Sutil knew Kimi lost his front wing and you can tell there was a big element of surprise with a big lock-up to avoid rear-ending Raikkonen, meanwhile on that corner exit Trulli had a massive run on Sutil, something Sutil himself never had a chance to recognise while dealing with the Ferrari acting unusual..

Finger-pointing is easy but in hindsight that was simply a racing accident to me..

No we think a driver should follow the rules and give room to a competitor in an overtaking situation.

Which is exactly what Sutil did. Trulli lost the car once right wheels went onto the grass and lost grip which. How can anyone claim Sutil forced Trulli onto the kerbs and onto the grass is beyond me. For that they would have to be alongside at the entry and mid corner

May I suggest again you read the rules.
After 15 years competing in motorsport and being involved in race instruction AND able to point out to you that your quote used originally was not even up to date, I think I have a good enough grasp of the rules. But I was clearly discussing the terminology used to describe certain parts of the track and while you may not find them specifically mentioned in the sporting code, they are taught throughout every race school in the world, as I said, you should try it one day, you might like it.

Squeezing.
OK...so WHEN does side by side "RACING" become "Squeezing" or are you seriously trying to infer to all that a driver "off the racing line" which Trulli clearly was on the outside, has the right of way over a driver who is actually ON the racing line. If you seriously believe a driver who is correctly positioned on the racing line and who is side by side with another driver should then have to "Yield" to someone making a wild outside line attempt....You have much to learn about driving conduct on the track.

The rules is that forcing someone off the track is not allowed, except when it was not done deliberately. It is still Sutil's fault. He should have lifted and given room. The person pushed off the track is not to be blamed in any way.
Your opinion which your entitled to, (BUT you are in the minority here just to be clear) is that a driver racing side by side, who is positioned correctly on the racing line should have to yield to a mad manouvre around the outside. Had Trulli been on the inside this is a completely different discussion, but he wasnt, he tried a wild move around the outside. Just as Martin Brundle noted (a man with a little more racing experience than you) Trulli hadno business attempting a pass at that moment on the track. I think "I'll agree with Martin on this one.
The RULES which you are fond of discussing, have been clearly understood for decades that the car "ahead" has right of way through a corner. Trulli was never "ahead" in the corner, so Sutil had no need to yield for him at all. Considering Sutil had a face full of Kimi rear end, I have no doubt he was more concerned with not hitting him rather than looking out for some driver chancing some wild move around the outside.

Can it be possible that you are promoting the idea that kerbs are not allowed to be used? What is not allowed is to leave the track, i.e. all wheels. It is ironic that you talk about twisting the facts to suit your argument, because Trulli did not leave the track willingly, he was sqeezed off by Sutil.
Let's try and keep this discusson mature. The rules state the curbs are not considered as part of the track. PERIOD. You can try to do whatever you want..but once a driver is using the curbs he is deemed to be using more than the allowed track area. Yes we all do it...BUT the onboard shot clearly shows Trulli's left wheels are beyond the white line. IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW YOU ENDED UP THERE once you are there, it is YOUR responsibility as the driver OFFCOURSE to get back onto the track safely. TRULLI DIDNT LIFT...PERIOD. Not at one point did I say Trulli left the track willingly so this is you trying to twist words yet again. They were racing side by side, he ran out of road because of HIS choice to go to the outside, YES Sutil used the racing line as he was perfectly entitled to do, or again in your racing world, you feel the guy perfectly positioned on the racing line has to yield to anyone that wants a wild move at any given moment? Trulli was not ahead...therefore Sutil had no need to yield. Period.


Trulli was forced off the track and whatever happened after that was the fault of the one who forced him off. You are actually saying that a person who is forced off track is responsible for how the car will behave off track.
Do you see any fault with what Trulli did at all? If so....WHAT exactly? as I said....WHATEVER the reason for him being off track...once "HE" is OFFCOURSE, it is "HIS" responsibility to get back on safely. Again take a look at the onboard picture. Is Trulli's car sideways? angled? or dead straight? He is purely side by side, if you know anything about a Formula 1 car, you will know that if you lift off in a straight line, the engine braking is phenominal and akin to someone hitting the brakes in their road car, when compared to the cars around them. TRULLI DIDNT LIFT...DIDNT BRAKE..but kept the throttle buried of that there is ZERO doubt. Again the rules...NOT ME..THIS IS NOT MY VIEW...the rules...state that the driver offcourse has the responsibility to get back on safely and not to gain any advantage. So YES to answer your question, the driver IS reponsible for his car especially when he clearly had control of it ALL THE WAY ALONG the length of the curbs. again look at the skid marks in the pictures they INSTANTLY swerve when his wheels hit the grass at the end of the curbs, not halfway along...not on entry BUT THE END... you simply cant talk your way out of what the picture presents as clear evidence of when that car stepped out of line.

If you had actually read my post, you would have known that my conclusion is the same as the stewards. As long as Sutil claims he didn't see him it was not a deliberate crowding and no punishment can be given. It doesn't detract from the point who was in the fault.
YOUR ABSOLUTELY RIGHT...... because we are not discussing who was at fault on the entry to the corner... WE ARE DISCUSSING WHO CAUSED THE ACCIDENT!!!!!!!!!!!! Yes there might have been contributing factors..yes Sutil might have been more aware on entry of where Trulli was.... BUT. Trulli ran the length of the curbs with his foot flat on the gas......FACT. The end result of that was a loss of grip on the outside right rear wheel which caused him to spin left (Right wheel loses traction spins faster than left rear, induces greater motion on the outside, creating yaw thus pushing the nose of the car left) AGAIN if you do not accept the principle of his lost traction on the right rear and why that was caused then thisdiscussion is moot anyway. IN SHORT.....HAD TRULLI LIFTED....there would NOT have been an accident..... it really is a simple as that, so to answer who caused the accident and therefore who was at fault...its TRULLI. Otherwise...he could have lifted..complained and Sutil may or may not have been given a drive through IF they felt he crowded Trulli too much.
We didnt get to that point, because the idiot in the red and white car had a fit of rage and kept his foot in determined to stay with Sutil until he ran out of grip, when his actions caused an accident. Again you can argue to death who was at fault on the entry to the corner.... BUT only ONE man caused the accident through the very simple action of not lifting... That was a view of a former Grand Prix Driver and that is the view clearly of most competition drivers here and THAT is why the majority consider this Trulli's fault.