MS would have been nowhere near where Fisi is cruising ......

he's still uber overestimated these days heh? .... do you guy's believe in the Easterbunny as well?

I think MS would have struggled in the car. By what margin he would have done better than Fisi, I have no idea. But, if the F60 is as difficult to drive as they say it is then to be thrown into it midseason, with no testing, after being out of the game for 3yrs, would have proven an uphill climb even for a driver of MS's calibre. KR has had this whole year to learn to 'work-it' and he is fit.
Do I think given enough time MS would beat KR somewhere down the line, maybe, maybe not .

Don´t try to compare Kimi with Schumi. It would be useless. Try it with Alonso, Hamilton, even with me if you want, but not with Schumacher.

would MS have been better than fisi? by lightyears.

Schumacher was team mate to Felipe Massa, the same Felipe Massa who has been retained by Ferrari in favour of Kim Raikkonen.
The same Felipe Massa who had Raikkonen as his number 2 at the end of last season.
The same Felipe Massa who had scored more points than Raikkonen this season, prior to his accident.
What does that tell us?

It is amazing how short some people's memories are.

It tells us that according to you FM was better than KR. It does not tell us anything about MS compared to Fisi.

Dominecali: Ok: Schumi actually had that problem with his vertebra, otherwise he would have raced. He was still fast!

Judging from Dominecali's words, yes, I guess MS would have achieved far a better scoreline.

In the year Schumi retired, the difference in speed between him and Massa was tiny. I doubt he has become any faster while he has been away.

like he would dare say "he did some tests and HE SUCKED!"
I'm not saying he's lying, but I don't know if he's not.

Well I was answering the question 'when has Schumacher ever had a fast team mate?'
The examples I've raised have obviously led you to assume I think Massa is faster than Raikkonen, who in turn has been faster than Fisi. Since Schumacher was faster than Massa and therefore faster than all three of them it should be fairly simple logic to have answered your own question

Given the passage of time - and as I have mentioned earlier in the thread - I think Schumacher would still be a better bet than Fisi and Badoer, but would not (immediately) be quicker than Raikkonen.

I don't think that Massa is faster than Raikkonen, I just think he applies himself better and works with the team more.
KR has a fantastic natural ability, he just doesn't seem to know whether he wants to be part of the sport or not.
Look at how he's raised his game since Massa's departure... how do you explain that one? I'd be (semi) interested to know.

It was told like thousand times here. Ferrari improved a lot since Spain. Between this nad Hungary there were 5 races.
In those races he scored 1 podium and 2 DNF, another two races he spent completely behind slower cars. One time he encountered Nakajima who was unusually high on grid and usually slow in race, other time he was squeezed at start, which led to loss of a part of front wing and decline to 9th position.

Before the very refined car was introduced, he finished 6th in Bahrain and was heading for 5th in Malaysia what was possibly maximum for that car.

Only his average race in China and mistake in Australia after very strong pace in 2/3 of the race are out of sync with recent rides.

MS would have been better than Fisi, but at least initially not as good as Kimi IMO.

Here's the key. Drivers like Badoer and Fisi, lose their confidence in a difficult to drive car. Guys like Kimi and MS even more so, know where their own limits are and trust that they can wrestle with the car, come there whatever is ahead. The first season were such differences became obvious to me, was when Mansell won finally his championship. He didn't mind his to throw his active suspension enabled car into a turn, and then deal with the cars behavior. Patrese was much, much slower, because he simply couldn't deal with it. There are quotes from Williams that said, their data showed that Patrese lost all the time to Mansell on the corner entry.

One of MS strength was the ability to drive around a problem, or better said, a difficult car. Watch him in the Benetton, and then see what Berger said about the very same car.

MS also liked to fiddle with all the buttons on his steering wheel he had at his disposal to find the absolute best settings for each and every corner.

Those are things that no driver lose just because he retires. His fitness was the obvious question.

But would Ferrari have accepted Schumis cancellation, just because he felt he wasn't competitive enough? No. Even if MS had been on the same level as Fisi, the media attention was something that Ferrari wouldn't have wanted to miss out.

Remember that a few races back, Kimi told us that keeping 3rd in the WDC was going to be difficult, because Ferrari stopped developing the F60 to switch early for next season. Other teams still developed their car. Had the Brazil GP been an entire sunny weekend, both Ferrari would have been cruising at the lower end of the grid. Nobody can win in a slow car. And this thread would not have been popped up, because it had been obvious to most folks, that the Ferrari became too slow.

Abu Dhabi might spring a surprise, as it's a new track. So Ferrari and Kimi might get it just right, but I wouldn't place a bet for a win.

In the end IMO it's a question of confidence, not in the car, but in one's own abilities. And at least there MS is miles ahead of Fisi and Badoer. Hence my belief that MS would have done better than Fisi, but would have been of Kimi's pace initially.

Really? Re-watch 2006 races (espeically China 2006) to see how Massa compared to MS!

Accroding to Brawn, MS is excellent at adjudging to new car and driving around problem.
So he should do much better than Fisi and Badoer. I would not be surprised if he beat Kimi at 2nd race.

Please, shares your grass, i wanna see fantasy championships too.

In a serious note - how much MS weight? More then Kimi. Than there are no new parts in a car - so all this racings he wouldn't able improve the car for himself. So it's like give them same cars and it would be all about driving skill - pure reflex, reaction, etc. And now he is 3 years out of the F1, almost 41 year old. If he would match Fisi I would think it's awesome performance from him.

don't mean to be rude, but a Giancarlo fan might not want to use' humiliated' too often considering what Fisi has done at Ferrari so far. It's a bit rich. Also, the only thing that matters: Kimi -WDC for Ferrari, Massa-zilch. The rest, they say, means jack shit.

yeah sure
that's why he's unemployed

Especially one race?
Massa was very close to Schumi, not faster, although he got two poles I think, but close. You guys make it sound like Schumi crushed him. He didn't. If you consider the whole season, not just one cherry picked race.

i voted no, because i really thinks that during the Mugello test Schumy understood how slow was actually...he could easily beaten by Kimi, and his name culd be destroyed after years of wins...no reasons for a multiple WDC to drive a difficult car for 5 races...

wasn't aware you knew what his plans were. kudos. I was comparing results at Ferrari between the two. It's pretty simple to follow. Couldn't care less about either driver to be honest. All I know is that Ferrari have a wall with pictures of past champions and I don't remember seeing Massa's picture anywhere. It's not an insult to you or your hero, just a fact.

It seems you didn't follow F1 back then.

MS pretty much crushed Massa during the first half of the season. (despite MS throwing away points in Aus and Monaco)
In the second half, Massa came closer but all in all MS dominated Massa throughout the season.
Something that Kimi never achieved.

There is no Massa to know how exactly he has raised his game.

It seems though when it suits, people are proclaiming Massa is improving all the time and getting better and better.
If thats true, the massa of MS years is a totally different Massa to the one we have today.


I don't think MS would do much better then Fisi, he certainly wouldn't be anyway near Kimi let alone beat him, this isn't anything against MS, but his age, 3 year out and learning with no practice a wierd braking Kers car, then, no.

And of course the fact that Massa was new to the team, and Schumacher's famous #1 status had absolutely nothing to do with it

Schumacher would of beaten Kimi. We all know the F60 is a bit of a dog.. go back to an interview Ross gave recently where he stated that Michael would simply drive around problems the car had, to the point that he almost lacked the ability to give feedback because he just coped with whatever the problems were.

That alone would of bought him time on the track. His ability to drive and think about strategy at the same time and think about managing tyres would also pay dividends. I may be wrong but I think Ferraris strategies haven't been the best this year and I think he would have good feedback and ideas during races to change strategy mid-race.

I also think he'd have a better handle set up.

Before anyone starts shouting fanboy I've never really been a fan of his, but I do see the qualities he had/has as a driver.

And to answer the question, well it's a tricky one.

IMO MS would be definately better than Fisi.
Would he beat Kimi after being away from F1 for so long? I doubt it.
But he would be therebout and maybe after a few races he could give Kimi a good fight.


At least he gave his all to make a comeback, risking his reputation just to drive a formula1 car again.
It would have been an interesting comeback if it weren't for the neck...

Like China (or was it MY) when he advised putting Kimi on the wrong tyres. You don't think a lot of those wonderful strategy changes mid-race might have had a bit to do with Ross.

Which race Massa was close to MS, without SC, when both had a healthy car?

I guess, this is the main reason why some here (mostly Kimi's fans), could never accept Massa is about Kimi's equal.

Actually, no.
MS was much better than Massa in 06.

If Schumacher had been driving all this time, I'd say, what you say has a bit of a chance, the problem is, he's been out of the loop too long, AND of course, he's aged, these things cannot be overlooked. I think he would be doing better than Fisi, specially after a few races like about now, but I find it extremely difficult that he would be anywhere near beating Kimi, or anybody else with previouis experience in that car, for that matter.

better? yes, for sure! as much as the results might show? that's where my coment comes into play

That theory is being tossed around for a reason and that is explaining Kimis failure at beating Massa.
While I do agree that Massa has become better since 06, it's not as big of improvment that some want to portray.
He's always been very quick, now he seems very consistent as well.

Ok then.
Massa was new in the team in 06, that's true. He was always fast but also much more erratic.
I think the help from both MS and Smedley has helped Massa become much more consistent.

Agree, agree. IMHO Massa is a demon with regards to raw speed talent, with Schu's help and Smedley, he's really blossomed. He might never become an all time great like Alonso, or so, but for sure, he's scary fast! and has added many other elements to his game A++++! Hope he comes back 100%!!!

You forget that it was FIRST Massa season in top team vs the GREATEST OF ALL TIME F1 CHAMPION. And when Smedley became Massa's RE he improved very much. Besides he was number two and Michael was number one - right from the start Felipe worked for MS success. So in the end Massa survived pretty good.

upd. since USA when Smedley become his RE Massa just lost 10 points to MS and that's while he was always number two.

I think the reality is that this Ferrari is a bitch to drive. Kimi was no where at the start of the season and it taken him 1/2 the season to work it out. The Massa replacement drivers are where Kimi was at the start of the season.

In saying that, if anyone could do it with little testing. It would be Shumi!

If we count Indy race MS had 5 wins in the second half of the season while Massa had two.
It was only in his favorite track at Istanbul and Interlagos (where MS had a problem during qualifying, not his fault) that Massa outraced Michael.

The rest go to MS and that had not much to do with nr1 status. Often Massa wasn't near enough to threaten MS, the best example being China.
Regarding the 10 points, don't forget the Suzuka engine blowup where Schumi didn't score.

Massa had a pretty good year in 06, being new in the team and all. He also started driving better during the season.
But MS was ahead of him in every aspect in 06.

Well, for sure we can all agree that Massa was the best of all Schumacher bitches, probably by a substantial margin.

Brawn:"Michael had a raw ability which sometimes almost got in the way of sorting the car out. He could cope with certain imbalances on the car which then could show themselves in the race because the tyres wouldn't last or other issues would come up. He liked to chuck the car around and his pure ability would sometimes mask what you were trying to uncover on the car."

All that means is that he can be comfortable driving an ill car, we've always known Mike to be amazing at adapting to different conditions. He would still be "optimyzed" when things are "correct" though.

Yeah, if you don't want to rewatch whole year because it may not support your view then at least you should watch at least one race.

The reason why Kimi fanboys claimed at the end of 2006 that Kimi would crush Massa is because MS crushed Massa. So they thought Kimi would do the same because to them Kimi was better than MS. When it never happen they start to find all possible excuses: Massa is a different driver from 2006; MS was number 1 and Massa was number 2, Kimi lost motivation, Kimi is new and Massa is preferred by Ferrari, blah blah.... LOL because they never accept that MS is better than Kimi.

Fact: MS crushed Massa. Kimi could not do the same but was outdriven by Massa and that is why he has to leave Ferrari before his contract even expired.

With Schumacher's and his allies's power within Ferrari, even if we dug up Senna from his grave and put him in a Ferrari, Schumacher would "crush" Senna too.

If there's one thing we've learned is that judging Schumacher's teammates's performances against him are not a proper gauge of performance.

I am not going to re-watch anything, I remember the 2006 season. I remember Schumacher being better than Massa but I also remember thinking "hmm, Massa is quite good" because he was almost always pretty close to Schumi in both practice qual and race. He were definitely not crushed and it was his rookie season. Massa got three poles, Schumi 4, he won two races and had two fastest laps (Schumi had lot more wins and fastest laps) and was third in the championship after Schumi. That is not the stats of someone being crushed, it is the stats of someone who made a impressive rookie season as team mate to one of the best drivers in the history. In both of the races where he had the fasts laps, Schumi was driving a healthy car to the end (without winning, so it is doubtful that he was taking it easy).

Anyone with access to Forix can quite easily establish that Massa impressed in his debut and that the speed difference between him and Schumi was tiny. Distinct, but still tiny.

You have a way of opening threads. I can't get my head around why any driver fan would want to create a thread like this. I am sure this thread is going to be full of objectivity.

Sorry, i was actually just teasing.

That sounds silly at first, but if you are looking for some kind of "baseline performance" you could have as a starting point in any given new situation, that's definitely correct. Schumacher was in a situation he knew the team, the team knew him and did everything he requested as he was their #1 and Todt, Brawn and Byrne were his personal friends. To think that Schumacher and his team mate could be removed, put into any new team that treated them equally instead and still expect their relative performances to remain at similar level, is down right ridiculous.

Yet we have now 80 people who think that way - fully valid even after 3 years of absence and neck injury!

You forgot it's Domi who produced F60, not Brawn.

fixed

So what?

SD said F60 is difficult to drive. It is where MS will excel. The more difficult the car is the better MS will be. That is the reason why I say MS would be much better than Fisi and Badoer in F60 and may be beat Kimi at 2nd race.

Badoer can drive in the 18th-20th pace.

Fisi can drive between the 13th-18th pace.

I say Schumi can drive between the 8th-15th pace, and heck chunk in one podium out of 7 tries.