You think that someone forgets how to steer with age?



He was out of F1 due to never getting a chance in a decent car. Testing for Ferrari is arguably better than racing a donkey at the back.




I said it was reasonable given that he'd had no testing at all in the car. Kimi had all of the pre-season and all the dozen races to that point. The first time Badoer tried the car was in first practice at Valencia.




Don't patronise me. You know as well as I do that having a difficult or slow car is not the same as coming into a team with no testing and having a champion as a benchmark. I'm defending Badoer because he never got a fair chance.

hehehehehe! that's too funny to even respond to.

Looking at Luca Badoer, it certainly appears that way.



A good racing driver -F3000 champion even- never got a decent car. Yet other drrivers like Kimi, Fernando, Webber et al progress upwards and get seats in F1.



A losing argument given the way things turned out for Luca. In any case, given his performance in F1 he would have driven donkeys for a couple more season at best, then it was time to become a crash test dummy anyway.



This is the shame. If Ferrari had given the seat to certain GP2 drivers, I am quite convinced they would have done a better job. But we'll never know.



Ferrari are as much to blame because he never should have gotten a chance. He had his chance earlier in his career, and he quickly found his level was good enough for a test driver only. Yet Ferrari offered him in a chance to drive in F1 again, he didn't say no, the rest is history.

Oh, I don't exactly know what is wrong with it, if I knew I probably be designing cars instead of chatting here with you I'm just saying there's more to it than meets the eye than in terms of oversteer and understeer, because really, going fast is about a LOT more than just oversteer and understeer, which is such a fixation that most fans here seem to have.

Like I said, the balance might be there, which I'm sure all these teams get to find at some point during the weekend, that doesn't mean they're all going to be fast. They might get relatively fast to their relative level of performance though.

I'm sure it is a difficult car, like I said, it looks like a handful in the hands of Fisi in particular, it's simply visibly not suited to him.

He was not just good enough to be a test driver, he was good enough to be a test driver at Ferrari. He was able to stay their #1 test driver through the golden years, while the reference for everyone, including of course Ferrari, was Michael Schumacher. That should be sufficient proof he was a very good driver. I do think, however, that he once was better than he is now, but he never retired, he was still a professional racing driver when he took that race seat, so it is not likely that he has lost as much as a driver that has retired would have.

I don't know why it is so important for you to prove that Badoer sucks, but I think you will have a very hard time proving it.

The results and laptimes don't lie.

They don't tell the truth either

Fixed.

is that really all you use to judge driver talent?

Kimi said that the car has good handling but not enough speed.

Maybe he was the only driver who could get used to the car.

Luca and Giancarlo could not because of the lack testing.

According to Kimi the car is ok, but just lacks downforce. I don't remember him complaining about how difficult it is to drive. But it's been said that Kimi's car control is what makes him so good so probably a nervous car is ok as long as it doesn't understeer constantly. I don't fully buy this "the car is too hard to drive" stuff, it's just very hard to beat Kimi when he's found a setup that works for him.

How is that a fix? You mean that bad drivers can be good test drivers in F1?

Did you miss a few races mid-season?

Did you miss the rest of the thread?

I mean your argument 'proved' he is good TEST driver. Your argument didn't 'prove' he is a good driver'.

He was not just good enough to be a test driver, he was good enough to be a test driver at Ferrari. He was able to stay their #1 test driver through the golden years, while the reference for everyone, including of course Ferrari, was Michael Schumacher. That should be sufficient proof he was a very good driver.


Read it again.

I think Kimi is just saying it's ok just to get over the questions over the handleing, we all know he never speaks much. I have yet to see a video where I see that Ferrari rotating the way he ussually drives, something about it just doesn't look right, it looks sluggish, and slow to react, it doesn't rotate well, and midcorner it appears to not be free in the rear. (free isn't the same as oversteer either)

I don't understand why I bother... but anyway

a good test driver = a good driver
a very good test driver = a very good driver

If you think that any team will let their multi million dollar creations into the hands of bad drivers, then I am afraid you have to reorganize your opinions a bit.

Well Ferrari put their "multi million dollar creations" in LB hands. Then they took it back

Car looks fine to me, it handles how a car should especially in race distances. It just generally lacks development.

You've never driven in Florida!

A very good test driver does not necessarily have to be extremely quick. Consistency counts for a lot to be able to judge if new parts have the desired effect. Therefore a very good test driver does not have to be a very good race driver.

Badoer is no doubt a very good test driver.

I never said that. I said that a very good test driver is a very good driver. Badoer failed miserably in the Ferrari race seat, but that does not make him the idiot of the year and slower than the average poster here.

interestingly, one of the things Badoer has been slagged off is his inconsistency during the race weekends he did for Ferrari. Something really doesn't add up.

Badoer's case is other than theone of Fisi, isnot it? Fisi dorve in FI well and suddernly in F60 t is almost impossible to hit his head up above the FI. I can imagine that Fifi will be slower than Kimi, but Fisi being slower than FI is a BIG question mark.

Domenicali is a loser

Well my 2 cents - F60 difficult to drive on the edge. And Kimi who spent half season with prevoius much doggier version of the car of cource has more expirience + he is one of the best. That's the difference - 0.5s with Fisi. I hardly imagine Fisi would be on the same level with Kimi even if they begin this season together. That's why i think Fisi give all his best.

of course he is
he's had probably the strongest driver lineup on the grid but failed to provide a winning car. not only that, but the team also failed completely on reliability and mistakes (last year and the beginning of this year)
what he does next? he changes one of the drivers, pays a huge amount of money to kick him out and bring another driver
like that was the problem...

Actually, he receives a huge amount of money to kick him out.

Maybe the F60 is hard to drive, but when I see the R29 sliding in high-speed curves and Alonso rallying to keep this dog on the track, I wonder how would Fisico perform this year in Renault. And, honestly, I don´t see him doing better than Piquet or Grosjean.

Sure, he´s the boss of the best team in F1 history and a very recognized person in the F1 circus and he´s a loser.
And you´re a winner.

Don´t make me laugh.

Sliding is not a problem for any driver, if it is reasonably predictable. What usually causes most problems is if the car behaves badly under braking, because there is very little that a driver can do if he have left the braking as late as possible. "Very little" of of course an overstatement, they can do a lot, but very little compared to the options they have going through a corner and accelerating out of it.

Sliding is a huge problem in high corners, simply put, it shouldn't happen, it destroys your tyres and lowers your average apex speed.

Very technical reply by you, I can see your point very clearly now

It DOESN'T handle properly, no, you obviously don't have the eye to apreciate it. like I said, it's not about the oversteer, or understeer, which you're aparently looking for and fixated on, or it's the only term you know of with regards to a racing car's behaviour.

The car's symptoms suggest weight distribution, if that were a go-kart, I'd suggest moving the driver seat up (to give more pendulum) and back (to liberate the front) so that the rear inside wheel lifts a bit easier on turn in to help it rotate. BUT, It's not a go-kart, it's a Formula 1. The team knows the symptoms, they just can't seem to correct it with what they have at hand at the moment.

Everyone seems to know the car has problems but you. But, of course, you know more than Domenicalli himself

Well, seeing as all FOTA teams except Williams agreed to drop KERS for 2010, the drivability under braking isn't going to be a problem anymore hopefully.

Maybe you´re right, but I think if a car has a lot of over or understeer it will be difficult to set good times in qualifying, and the race can be a torture!

I mean that it is not a problem to handle. Of course it is a problem for the lap times.

So now your speaking for Kimi are you? When even he doesnt agree with your agenda apparently its not what he really means? Thanks for that

Nah that honour would go to you, mr rotation.

Well, excuse me for knowing about a subject you know nothing about

Magnus, tell us something about driving a car. Something we don't know.

If you noticed, I said "I THINK" that means it's my OPINION, nothing more, nothing less. Unlike many here, I don't state my opinion as fact.

Guys, pretty much everyone that matters has confirmed that the F60 is hard to drive.. what is this argument about?

Argument is about certain people (who understand less than the average fan) think they know more than the people who you so properly mentioned, matter

I have forgotten. I think it is about if the F60 proves that Fisi and Badoer is useless as drivers. It is all black and white for some.

F60 isn't worse than the Ferrari F310 of 1996 or the Ferrari F310B of 1997..... Now THOSE cars were hard to drive. Just ask Eddie Irvine...

Why not ask Luca Badoer? After all, he tried them both ;)

Edit: "Both" as in the F60 and the 310B

Could be, doesn't change anything though

Irvine never drove the F60 AFAIK...

You can believe something and try to pass it off as a fact, doesn't change anything outside of BB dynamics though

How would you know how much I know? You think you are the expert around here because you drive go karts?