The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > Kimi in 2010? [merged]

Tomerell

Oct 27 2009, 15:37

QUOTE (JamesHunt @ Oct 27 2009, 17:02)

"Raikkonen can still close with McLaren, but the chances of that happening dropped significantly."

http://blog-do-ico.blogspot.com/2009/10/com-quem-sera.html

Can someone please translate this, thanx... Reading from your comment it doesn't sound good

Odvan

Oct 27 2009, 16:07

Well we already discussed a little this situation:
It is expected that Mercedes, with a 40% shareholding in McLaren, wants to step away from the arrangement in favour of a new deal with Brawn.

So how can we now interpret Haug's words about Kimi's greediness?

I think he has some not only money reasons to not sign Kimi with Mclaren. And more I think only after this negotiations when all will be clear Mclaren could start make a deal with Kimi or anybody else. That's why Haug and MW said many times they sort pilots situation after end of the season (end of those high negotiations in AD).

stig

Oct 27 2009, 16:12

I'd like to see Kimi in the WRC at some point. Don't think next year would be right time for the move though, as the WRC is in transition mode at a minute. When the new rules for the WRC come in, I think it would be a good move for Kimi, possibly with Abarth.

With this in mind, if I was Kimi, I would sign a one year contract with McLaren and aim to go out on a high by winning the world championship.

JML

Oct 27 2009, 16:29

QUOTE (Tomerell @ Oct 27 2009, 12:37)

Can someone please translate this, thanx... Reading from your comment it doesn't sound good

mainly that according to a german journalist kimi have the right to receive usd50mn only if he does not drive for other team, if he does just usd20mn, so he is supposed to be asking mclaren the other usd30mn to drive for them. this hight price is out of actual economic reality and mclaren could take other alternatives

Raziel

Oct 27 2009, 16:43

QUOTE (JML @ Oct 27 2009, 17:29)

mainly that according to a german journalist kimi have the right to receive usd50mn only if he does not drive for other team, if he does just usd20mn, so he is supposed to be asking mclaren the other usd30mn to drive for them. this hight price is out of actual economic reality and mclaren could take other alternatives

So Ferrari did a good job after all...hmm interesting! So he will get full amount of money only if he doesn´t drive for other team. Damn what a turning point

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 16:45

how reliable is the source? if it's true, I'd just retire if I were him, he'd have to lose money to drive.

kismet

Oct 27 2009, 16:45

So, basically, if he does end up staying in F1, he'll effectively be paying some $25 million for the privilege?

That's a lot of money. I can see why he'd rather not give that up for Toyota.

Odvan

Oct 27 2009, 16:55

Jeez. How is simple to manipulate people.

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 16:57

It makes sense for Ferrari to have such conditions in the payout, but why would KR agree to it? I can see the Robertsons agree to it though, they will get 20% of that 30mil if they manage to convince KR to sit at home.

meat

Oct 27 2009, 17:03

QUOTE (stig @ Oct 27 2009, 17:12)

I'd like to see Kimi in the WRC at some point. Don't think next year would be right time for the move though, as the WRC is in transition mode at a minute. When the new rules for the WRC come in, I think it would be a good move for Kimi, possibly with Abarth.

With this in mind, if I was Kimi, I would sign a one year contract with McLaren and aim to go out on a high by winning the world championship.

I think Kimi wants to do a one year deal and that is one of the problems.
Teams,in this case Mclaren, usually wants to do longer contracts...

MikeTekRacing

Oct 27 2009, 17:06

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 18:45)

how reliable is the source? if it's true, I'd just retire if I were him, he'd have to lose money to drive.

it's money he hasn't exactly worked for yet that he will "lose"
if his desire is to have those money more than racing (and earning money from there too) then he should stay home and let other drivers have a go.

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 17:15

QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Oct 27 2009, 18:06)

it's money he hasn't exactly worked for yet that he will "lose"
if his desire is to have those money more than racing (and earning money from there too) then he should stay home and let other drivers have a go.

He wouldn't be earning money from racing at all, he would need a 30mil/year contract to break even. No one has got this sort money these days, basically he would have to pay to drive. I don't see him doing that, he wouldn't even drive for free, not to mention pay. That's why I said this theory doesn't make sense.

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 17:20

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 10:15)

He wouldn't be earning money from racing at all, he would need a 30mil/year contract to break even. No one has got this sort money these days, basically he would have to pay to drive. I don't see him doing that, he wouldn't even drive for free, not to mention pay. That's why I said this theory doesn't make sense.

what kind of upside down logic is this??! Supposing journo is right, even if Kimi races for McLaren for free (because he only wants to win) he'll still get 20 mil from Ferrari. Where does this "he would have to pay to drive" drivel come from?!

the way it looks now he has guaranteed 20 mil salary for whatever drive he gets, even at FI or STR. It is probably more than anyone else is getting (bar 1-2 pilots).

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 17:28

QUOTE (Desdirodeabike @ Oct 27 2009, 11:47)

I just saw that Gino Rosato is leaving Ferrari for Lotus. I know he is a close friend of Kimis so I cant help to start to think that it is not only Stella and Dyer who are rumored to be puzzled and really upset over Kimi being ousted the way he was.

Link: http://www.flagworld.com/news/?p=26814#more-26814

Leaving Ferrari for new team Lotus is not exactly an obvious career move, is it. Of course - you can say he wants a new challenge and all that. But I still say that there is something rotten in the state of Maranello.

QUOTE (Anomnader @ Oct 27 2009, 12:48)

err, what exactly does he do? I'm not sure he's really going to be a big lose to Ferrari :-/

That fat guy irritates the hell out of me.

An attention whore who is always in the right place to get his face on TV. I hope we won't see him around from now onwards.

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 17:30

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:20)

what kind of upside down logic is this??! Supposing journo is right, even if Kimi races for McLaren for free (because he only wants to win) he'll still get 20 mil from Ferrari. Where does this "he would have to pay to drive" drivel come from?!

the way it looks now he has guaranteed 20 mil salary for whatever drive he gets, even at FI or STR. It is probably more than anyone else is getting (bar 1-2 pilots).

Do try to keep up.

If that article is correct (probably isn't tbh)

Kimi gets $50m for sitting on his arse at home.

Or

$20m + whatever his new team pays him to race for them next year.

So unless some team offers him at least $30m to drive for them he is better staying at home.

Desdirodeabike

Oct 27 2009, 17:30

Here is a french article that may shed some light on why it has taken so long to get Kimi confirmed at McLaren. Apparently the entire McLaren-Mercedes partnership is up in the mix. The french people I got this from, say that the website is fairly reliable and apparently have some pundits and insiders there.

Link: http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/f1-mclaren-r...e-mercedes-8624
You would have to use Google translate. But a friendly soul has done her best to make it a bit more understandable:

QUOTE

Raikkonen is guaranteeing for the presence of Mercedes.
It is considered almost certain that Kimi Raikkonen will be a McLaren driver in 2010. However, the conclusion has been reached after a long time and it will definitely be done after Abu Dhabi. (see Raikkonen will go well at McLaren in 2010). But two obstacles must be overcome.
The first and most worrying, is the relationship between McLaren and Mercedes (see: Early break between McLaren and Mercedes?) The German manufacturer has assured of their presence until the end of their contract, ie until 2011. In fact, Raikkonen got the assurance that the Woking team is fully supported by Mercedes until the end of his contract. This ensures two years of Mercedes's presence in the backing of the Woking team.
The second question is concerning the Mercedes engine, which might lose its dominance in 2010. The Finn is seeking technical guarantees from the manufacturer, guarantees that have been slow to come. On the McLaren side, their charge during 2009 convinced the world champion about their ability to return to the front of the stage.
For the contract, Mercedes-Benz offered the same contract that had been proposed to Kimi Raikkonen in 2006 to keep him in 2007 and 2008 in McLaren alongside Fernando Alonso. A concrete contract, for two seasons, with technical and sporting guaranteed fairness. Which should comfort everyone.
The arrival of Kimi Raikkonen at McLaren coincides with a truce between the two partners (McLaren and Mercedes), but also with the significant presence of Mercedes-Benz in the transfer of its partners (see McLaren, a line up of Mercedes-dependancy). A relative peace that will result in separation of property in 2011, but by then, the presence of 2007 world champion will ensure an investment for the factory in Woking, and enable it to anticipate the future.

Im hoping this is solid. It could very well explain the insanely long time it has taken to close this deal. The whole thing reeks of more than just the ordinary driver vs team wheeling and dealing.

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 17:36

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 10:30)

Do try to keep up.

If that article is correct (probably isn't tbh)

Kimi gets $50m for sitting on his arse at home.

Or

$20m + whatever his new team pays him to race for them next year.

So unless some team offers him at least $30m to drive for them he is better staying at home.

I do keep up, tyvm. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no scenario under which Kimi can be said to be paying to drive

Now please do try to keep up:

QUOTE

He wouldn't be earning money from racing at all,

<- WRONG, he would earn at least $20 mils from Ferrari

1fastSS

Oct 27 2009, 17:40

Kimi will probably agree to go to McLaren for a bit of a pay cut, as they are a top team, but it will be an interesting choice given that he could go to a lesser team and be number 1. But I would love to see a Kimi vs Hamilton race at Mclaren. Alonso sure had his hands full it would be interesting to see the "iceman" interact with Luis on and off the track. If for nothing else than that. KIM TO McLaren.

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 17:44

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:36)

<- WRONG, he would earn at least $20 mils from Ferrari

he would get that even if he sits at home next season.

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 17:46

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 10:44)

he would get that even if he sits at home next season.

of course, doesn't make your statement correct though. He'll be earning money either way, so it is up to him to decide what he wants more, wins and wdcs or money.

OfficeLinebacker

Oct 27 2009, 17:49

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 13:30)

Do try to keep up.

If that article is correct (probably isn't tbh)

Kimi gets $50m for sitting on his arse at home.

Or

$20m + whatever his new team pays him to race for them next year.

So unless some team offers him at least $30m to drive for them he is better staying at home.

You're absolutely right, if you're only talking about economics and only talking about driver salary.

There are other factors such as future prospects, personal satisfation, etc. Also other elements of the financial side such as endorsements.

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 17:50

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:46)

of course, doesn't make your statement correct though. He'll be earning money either way, so it is up to him to decide what he wants more, wins and wdcs or money.

If he would earn 20mil from siting at home, I wouldn't call it money earned from racing.

tommi34

Oct 27 2009, 17:54

If Kimi hadn't motivation he'd already said he's gonna quit. He just doesn't wanna drop his earnings too much, because he's gonna most likely get less money if he drives at F1 compared to sabbath or WRC.

noikeee

Oct 27 2009, 17:54

QUOTE (JML @ Oct 27 2009, 16:29)

mainly that according to a german journalist kimi have the right to receive usd50mn only if he does not drive for other team, if he does just usd20mn, so he is supposed to be asking mclaren the other usd30mn to drive for them. this hight price is out of actual economic reality and mclaren could take other alternatives

QUOTE (Desdirodeabike @ Oct 27 2009, 17:30)

Here is a french article that may shed some light on why it has taken so long to get Kimi confirmed at McLaren. Apparently the entire McLaren-Mercedes partnership is up in the mix. The french people I got this from, say that the website is fairly reliable and apparently have some pundits and insiders there.

Link: http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/f1-mclaren-r...e-mercedes-8624
You would have to use Google translate. But a friendly soul has done her best to make it a bit more understandable:

Im hoping this is solid. It could very well explain the insanely long time it has taken to close this deal. The whole thing reeks of more than just the ordinary driver vs team wheeling and dealing.

Either of these scenarios would indeed explain what is going on. I hope the later one is what is going on, because it's a lot more positive. And frankly I think it's more likely to be true - $50 million sounds like a massive sum for Ferrari to agree to pay him for nothing in return!

The bad news is that the later scenario doesn't actually exclude the former, both things could be happening at the same time. Kimi wanting 30 million (or near 30 million) and guarantees by Mercedes.

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 17:55

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 10:50)

If he would earn 20mil from siting at home, I wouldn't call it money earned from racing.

he'd earn 50 mils sitting on his ass at home
he'd earn 20+ mils racing for wins and wdcs..

Notice keyword "earn" in both scenarios? (I've highlighted them for easy comprehension)

Hope it helped.

rodlamas

Oct 27 2009, 17:56

QUOTE (Desdirodeabike @ Oct 27 2009, 15:30)

Here is a french article that may shed some light on why it has taken so long to get Kimi confirmed at McLaren. Apparently the entire McLaren-Mercedes partnership is up in the mix. The french people I got this from, say that the website is fairly reliable and apparently have some pundits and insiders there.

Link: http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/f1-mclaren-r...e-mercedes-8624
You would have to use Google translate. But a friendly soul has done her best to make it a bit more understandable:

Im hoping this is solid. It could very well explain the insanely long time it has taken to close this deal. The whole thing reeks of more than just the ordinary driver vs team wheeling and dealing.

The article also says the announcement will be done on Tuesday, November 3rd.

Odvan

Oct 27 2009, 17:57

QUOTE (Desdirodeabike @ Oct 27 2009, 20:30)

Here is a french article that may shed some light on why it has taken so long to get Kimi confirmed at McLaren. Apparently the entire McLaren-Mercedes partnership is up in the mix. The french people I got this from, say that the website is fairly reliable and apparently have some pundits and insiders there.

Link: http://www.tomorrownewsf1.com/f1-mclaren-r...e-mercedes-8624
You would have to use Google translate. But a friendly soul has done her best to make it a bit more understandable:

Im hoping this is solid. It could very well explain the insanely long time it has taken to close this deal. The whole thing reeks of more than just the ordinary driver vs team wheeling and dealing.

Well those french source just write all rumors they heard so it's highly unreliable source - earlier they wrote about 44M euro for Kimi, now $50M with conditions.

But like I said before in AD will be negotiations between Daimler big boss and MG about their relationships. So it's very likely to me only after those negotiations will be last offer from Mclaren and apparently Kimi want some guarantees about further collaboration Mclaren with Mercedes. In this case Haugs with his statement plays on BrawnGP (Mercedes F1 in nearest future) side.

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 18:00

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:36)

I do keep up, tyvm. That's exactly what I'm saying. There's no scenario under which Kimi can be said to be paying to drive

Now please do try to keep up:

<- WRONG, he would earn at least $20 mils from Ferrari

Man, don't ever start your own business.

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 17:44)

he would get that even if he sits at home next season.

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:46)

of course, doesn't make your statement correct though. He'll be earning money either way, so it is up to him to decide what he wants more, wins and wdcs or money.

As things stand he'll be paid $50m for watching TV all day. If he chooses to race he loses $30m of that straight away. So yes, he is paying $30m to effectively buy himself out of his contract.

QUOTE (OfficeLinebacker @ Oct 27 2009, 17:49)

You're absolutely right, if you're only talking about economics and only talking about driver salary.

There are other factors such as future prospects, personal satisfation, etc. Also other elements of the financial side such as endorsements.

Of course, but that's for Kimi to decide about. As for financial endorsements, prize money in F1 is relatively quite irrelevant and I doubt whether McLaren would offer much in the way of bonuses anyway because as far as they'll be concerned anyone driving their car should be easily capable of winning races anyway. The only other endorsement I can think of is his Tag Heuer (

) deal which would continue probably whichever team he went to but might well end if he quits. Hardly a deciding factor though I shouldn't have thought.

potmotr

Oct 27 2009, 18:01

QUOTE (Owen @ Oct 26 2009, 20:37)

I always thought the Robertsons were the shrewdest managers in the paddock but after the events of the last few weeks, their options are very limited and they ain't looking all that clever now.

Though they've landed their man a big pile of cash, even if he doesn't drive.

I think Kimi will go to McLaren.

The caper we're seeing at the moment is all part of the negotiation.

Arion

Oct 27 2009, 18:04

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:55)

he'd earn 50 mils sitting on his ass at home
he'd earn 20+ mils racing for wins and wdcs..

he'd earn 30mil less if he races=he'd lose 30mil from racing

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 18:06

FAO anyone bad mouthing Robertsons:

What the hell do you know about business and sports management??

These guys are incredible; they fooled Ferrari into believing the hype and force a 7X WDC out the team to get their man a seat and the biggest salary in F1 history. Now they have secured a deal where the same guy (Kimi), who has done very little for the past two seasons, will be paid $50m for sitting at home watching Trisha.

And you guys think the Robertsons are idiot?? LOLOLOLOLOL

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 18:15

QUOTE (Arion @ Oct 27 2009, 11:04)

he'd earn 30mil less if he races=he'd lose 30mil from racing

Dude, he'd EARN LESS if he's racing, but EARN nevertheless. His bank account will be bigger = he's NOT LOSING money racing.
If I'm earning less money than you does it mean I'm losing money from what I'm doing???

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 18:18

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 18:15)

Dude, he'd EARN LESS if he's racing, but EARN nevertheless. His bank account will be bigger = he's NOT LOSING money racing.
If I'm earning less money than you does it mean I'm losing money from what I'm doing???

Do you actually understand the slightest thing about business?

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 18:23

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 11:18)

Do you actually understand the slightest thing about business?

yes, do you understand English though? I'm not disputing that he'd earn more sitting on his ass if he isn't getting $30mils+ for his drive. I'm disputing the notion that he would somehow lose money if he was racing even for free. You seem to be unable to grasp the simple math that his bank account will grow regardless = he won't "pay to drive".

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 18:29

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 18:23)

yes, do you understand English though? I'm not disputing that he'd earn more sitting on his ass if he isn't getting $30mils+ for his drive. I'm disputing the notion that he would somehow lose money if he was racing even for free. You seem to be unable to grasp the simple math that his bank account will grow regardless = he won't "pay to drive".

potmotr

Oct 27 2009, 18:34

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 18:29)

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 18:35

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 11:29)

I need to learn to look at the joined date and posts, that's all I have to say to you.

potmotr

Oct 27 2009, 18:41

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 18:35)

I need to learn to look at the joined date and posts, that's all I have to say to you.

A wise policy.

Liuggi

Oct 27 2009, 18:59

Lol at you guys. You just don't get it, I've tried my best to explain.

klover

Oct 27 2009, 19:13

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 17:55)

he'd earn 50 mils sitting on his ass at home
he'd earn 20+ mils racing for wins and wdcs..

Notice keyword "earn" in both scenarios? (I've highlighted them for easy comprehension)

Hope it helped.

Source? Is the contract up on the internet?

Panch

Oct 27 2009, 19:23

QUOTE (Liuggi @ Oct 27 2009, 20:59)

Lol at you guys. You just don't get it, I've tried my best to explain.

Then please stop.

rodlamas

Oct 27 2009, 19:24

I give 30 more minutes before Gilles closes this thread.

grunge

Oct 27 2009, 19:26

im still quite certain the mclaren deal will go through..the french article kind of gives a plausible explanation of what happening right but its still speculation

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 19:29

QUOTE (klover @ Oct 27 2009, 12:13)

Source? Is the contract up on the internet?

Some french jurno. Whole "discussion" was based on the assumption that the report is correct. I must say that if it is indeed true it is quite a masterpiece stroke by Ferrari. In a sense in the current economy and giving current Kimi's stock it guaratees that Kimi won't be driving against Ferrari because no one wants to pay anywhere near $30 mils and anything else will not please Kimi's managers since they are getting % off the deal, meaning it is in Robertsons best *financial* interest to have Kimi sidelined, as weird as it sounds.

Apex

Oct 27 2009, 19:41

QUOTE (ZZMS @ Oct 27 2009, 22:15)

Dude, he'd EARN LESS if he's racing, but EARN nevertheless. His bank account will be bigger = he's NOT LOSING money racing.
If I'm earning less money than you does it mean I'm losing money from what I'm doing???

If you'd earn more money not doing whatever you are doing, then yes, you are in fact losing money from doing it.

Earning money from something else while racing is not the same as earning money from racing.

noikeee

Oct 27 2009, 19:46

Great debate about semantics, people.

Lazy Prodigy

Oct 27 2009, 19:48

QUOTE (Slowinfastout @ Oct 27 2009, 09:11)

He does alot of stuff... I think currently he oversees logistics mainly.. maybe security is bundled into that.

Apparently there's about 10 people working under him in the F1 team..

edit: AFCA would be handy just now lol..

It will be different not seeing him around Ferrari anymore. He was good mates with Schumacher then Kimi.

ZZMS

Oct 27 2009, 19:48

QUOTE (Apex @ Oct 27 2009, 12:41)

If you'd earn more money not doing whatever you are doing, then yes, you are in fact losing money from doing it.

Earning money from something else while racing is not the same as earning money from racing.

Gee...
completely fictitious activities:

I wiped the desk and earned $20 but if I hadn't wasted 10 minutes to do so I'd earn $40 by filling out some forms

questions:
did I earn any money? HELL YES, $20
did I lose opportunity to earn more? HELL YES
did I lose money? HELL NO, my pocket is $20 bigger

what you, along with that troll, are talking about is called "Missed profit", "Forfeight gain", "Foregone gain", which is not disputed. For someone lecturing about business and earning you guys are amazingly confused to say the least.

mclarensmps

Oct 27 2009, 19:52

stop this

Odvan

Oct 27 2009, 20:00

QUOTE (paranoik0 @ Oct 27 2009, 22:46)

Great debate about semantics, trolls.