Kimi Raikkonen about Suzuka:

"Suzuka is old school. The new circuits have huge runoff areas, so when you make a mistake there, nothing happens, because most of the time you just drive back on track. Here you hit the wall. And so it should be. You need to get punished when you do a mistake. That makes the driving more fun/thrilling and it forces you to be more precise."

David Coulthard about Abu Dhabi

"There has to be a penalty for going off a circuit. It should not be a big crash that ends up hurting you, but there has to be a price to pay. And I think this track has redefined the FIA safety standards because of the safety barriers"

Do you agree that the tracks should be made riskier to improve racing?

How is it plagiarism when Coulthard and Raikkonen have the same opinions? All the drivers are, after all, drivers, and so probably share the same sentiments about these things.

Firstly - I don't believe for one second that Kimi actually said those words. He probably went "errrrr mistake. errrrrrr. track....errrrr. thrilling...er... icecream" and the Ferrari press office turned it into something coherent.

Secondly - why is this plagiarizing?

Thirdly - how would injuring drivers improve racing?

Recently I have this feeling that DC speaks for TV viewers and his sponsors rather than for himself on BBC. He was active in raising safety on track during his time of driving. Now DC is a hero and had become a hard core racer, who says that safety is not what the drivers should concern.

This said I admire his carrier as skilled racing driver, tho.

Coulthard has always been like that, wanting more and more safety. Kimi is a proper racing driver.

I'm shocked, DC spoke and didn't tip a Red Bull for pole

Maybe he just thinks they went over the line somewhere. Improving safety is one thing, but turning every track into a 100m wide highway with some astro turf in between seperating the "race-track" from the "run-off" is a travesty.

Exactly. places like Monaco and Singapore might not produce wheel to wheel racing but as a fan you always know something might happen because of the barriers. Places like Shanghai. Sepang and Sakhir all have the long straights which is good for overtaking but i'm not on edge during the race (unless we get some Sepang 09 rain). If they go off track they could drive for about 10 miles before they encounter a barrier.

Yes - I think he makes a fair point. Drivers need to know they will be punished for making errors. Not in a life threatening way, but a way that will ensure their race/practice is compromised. Some venues have more hardstanding than Heathrow and the drivers abuse it. This definately takes away from the suspense and spectacle

What the point ?!
With neither wheel to wheel racing nor relevant technical innovation I see no point.

These new car park circuits are making F1 drivers look like wussys. No Danger, Zero thrill, Forgiving tracks, Little wheel to wheel racing, "Peaceful team mates". its a joke.

Quite simply, yes there should be punishment for errors.

Take a look at Turkey as a fantastic example - a great circuit, a real challenge, but where's the penalty for a mistake? The quadruple apex Turn 8 has so much run off that if a driver makes an error they can let the car run wide over the runoff and then keep their foot flat in and retake the track again. What if that runoff was gravel? What if there was a wall closer than 5 miles away from the track?

Create a penalty for running off track, and then you start to determine the class from the chuff. Those who can take it to the limit and keep it where it should be will reap the rewards. Those who can't will get busted pretty damned fast.

That's why Suzuka's mega. And it's where Turkey falls down.

Thank you Alan Jones...

I share this opinion, some sort of penalty should be when you are running of track, not only if you overtake or gain an advantage thank to this running off.
But I don't know what penalty should it be, would be a drive-thru not to harsh?

No, I don't mean a penalty to be determined by a bunch of idiot stewards who have never sat in a racing car and don't know their arse from their elbow.

I mean a penalty that is immediately applicable. Gravel. Speed bumps. High abbrasion run off strips (like at Ricard) to literally scrub off speed and rubber from the tyres. Something that will either slow the driver down or damage his tyres. That's the kind of penalty I mean.

A penalty to be applied by the stewards means nothing because the advantage will still be taken by running off the track. If you make running off the track a penalty in itself, you do away with the need for stewards to have to make the call on whether an advantage was gained or not, because it will simply become too difficult to take such an advantage.

YES. Suzuka was a good example: tons of high speed crashes and only Timo got an injury that excluded him from the race, and it seems like he was really unlucky there. Rest of the drivers walked away from the site and continued, it was more of a problem for the mechanics who had to repeair the cars. And it's fine, I hope no one thinks about installing a chicane instead of Degner curves. At a lot of modern Tracks amount of run off is uncalled from, even a mid corner has a football pitch sized area of pavement around it, it's nothing but ridiculous, as it's been said many times before.

I don't think he means that kind of penalty. If you screw up, you pay the price by finding the wall, not be getting a drive-through.

That makes sense, why they doesn't do it? I mean, some things on run offs, that doesn't cause an accident/SC but costs much of speed/rubber the car, it doesn't sound too complicated and I don't see any cons in such solution.

Should have more like this:

We definitely need tracks to punish drivers more for errors. Abu Dhabi at least are using these Tecpro barriers which can seemingly be placed closer to the track without killing anybody, and this is something which needs to be considered at other tracks. More gravel, less run-off, closer barriers; that's what we need. We see many occasions where a driver near, sometimes near the front, makes an error, runs off but is saved by tarmac. That is one reason why F1 doesn't excite people any more. If they were to end up in gravel or a barrier then it would shuffle the results, make events more exciting and less predictable. Combine that with overtaking improvements and F1 is more of a spectacle.

Could anyone explain to me what the Tecpro barriers actually do to be safer?

I like the runoffs, cars lose time but stay in the race, what could be more perfect? I want to see racing not 'punishment'. I don't know why so many fans have this punitive streak.

Completely agree. Part of the reason for so much overtaking at Brazil was because the corners have a proper penalty if you get it wrong, this helps distinguish the drivers with the best car control, who are able to really attack the circuit. Too many circuits allow also-rans to drive over the limit with minimal payback for getting it wrong.

Two good things to say about this;

Yes it's right that drivers should be forced to drive within the circuit where it is safe to do so, it would have saved a few of the BB rows we've had the last few years. Think Kimi v Lewis Spa, Kimi La Source, Webber and Alonso Singapore, Schumacher v de la Rosa at Hungary etc.

second, it means you can build grandstands closer to the track and not miles away past the gravel and run-offs. That's got to be a good thing.

Its another part of wussF1 that we are all now know and hate. I want to see Car and driver on the limit. Thats what f1 is about, the pinnacle. Not a sunday driver school. Ooops i went a bit off track here, no matter not a barrier in sight, and i can take advantage by cutting the track and stop me losing time. How is my 4 race gearbox going,, fine. How is my enigine going... good reduced performace reliable brick... Its ok. I wanna see engines on the Limit, Big mean units, that are on the limit and baing worked so hard that they are in danger of exploding on the last lap, Bring some suspence back into the game.

easy. all four wheels over white lines should mean disqualified for the next race. or for as many races as it happens. gives some chanses for reserve drivers also.

So that means all 20 drivers would have been disqualified after Monza. Every car puts all four wheels over the solid white line on the exit of Ascari.

I assume this is the system which FIA spent long time developping, a kind of multilayered safety waal system design to catch cars 'softly' when it crash onto it. It is an very sophisticated version of tyre wall,... sory, more than any tyre wall.


With this Canda accident of Kubica should have beenmuch less of an impact, Glock should have not cut his leg and Schumacher could have raced on after the head on accident,...

Am I correct...?

The Turn1 runoff at Brazil gets quite a bit of traffic it seems to me

It's a key part of the many great moves we see there.

I disagree. Run-off is more helpful to the middling drivers than the greats, it helps even out the field. T1 at Interlagos is great because the corner's so difficult.

Well I'm struggling to think of any evidence for gravel traps improving the racing. With the points system as it is drivers can't afford to try a move that might end their race in the gravel. They're much more likely to have a go at say Turkey T12, Nurb T1/2 etc. If we want to see overtaking then tarmac runoff is totally the bees knees.

Plus it slows the cars quicker, doesn't need a kerb that launches the car into the air, and doesn't trip a car into a roll. Much safer.

Spectators can be nearer, that's a big difference too.

On the question of men-from-the-boys, well we can see the difference clearly enough already, surely. We don't need to have cars flying into the barriers to know who's who.

Run offs and gravel traps do ensure more cars stay on the circuit and in the race so in that regard they ought to be seen as positive and something to keep in the more notoriously bad corners. I don't want to see every mistake getting such punishment.

Check out http://www.tecprobarriers.com/ These new barriers are a great thing

This issue is being approached from the wrong angle.

They didnt make the walls closer to improve racing, decrease runoff or decrease safety.

The Tecpro barriers made it possible to reduce runoff at some critical points which aided in bringing the the grandstands and other buildings closer to the track and reduce the amount of land used up by the track.

From the drivers point of view I dont think it changes a thing. Obviously at Monaco drivers have to be alot more accurate than any other track. At Abu Dhabi there is still plenty of 'racing runoff' everywhere if not as much 'crash runoff' as most other modern tilke tracks.

Even though reducing the runoff may increase potential crash impact speed (negated by tecpro) the kerbs and track limits at Abu Dhabi have been made way too easy to breach without problems. I think breaching the track limits (white line) should induce a bigger penalty at Abu Dhabi. Not enough to increase the chances of an accident but enough to hinder the lap or move they are making.

Yes there are two separate issues. The Tecpro barrier will probably still take off a wing or break the suspension, it just reduces injury risk.

Tarmac is probably vital for it to work, keeping the car level and on the ground, and taking off more speed in any given distance between the track and the barrier.

Yes, they should be punished.
A nice wide strip of grass between the track and the tarmac run-off should be enough to be sure they all lose considerable time when they go off. Either that or higher and more harmful kerbs which will disencourage them to use it as part of the track. IMO, there shouldn't even be kerbs to begin with. You're either on or off the track. Full stop.

Exactly on all counts.

Yeah Jackie Stewart was a crap idiot too.

They could stop that if they wanted to.


and I agree drivers should be punished for running off track/making errors. The run off tarmac, in my mind, should damage the tires and force drivers to pit (once you go off track by say, 5 yards or so).

When I read the topic header I thought it was a new suggestion from Mosley.

It's quite a tricky balance because I have no wish to watch a motor race which is won purely by attrition and because of the smallest of errors. If you're going to punish heavily (with additional pitting or DNF) then be sure that the track is properly the track rather than the black line tramrails we have at the moment. Drivers are punished badly for going off the racing line because of the marbles.

People are actually debating whether drivers should be punished for making mistakes?

Thats, like, the whole point, isn't it?

Spa 1st corner needs to change. Make it so that drivers who go off completely have to come to a complete stop before continuing or face a 10 stop/go penalty. I'm all for safer run off areas that have been paved, but the second you gain an advantage then it should be penalized.

That 'run off' at spa is uncalled for. It's not even a proper run off as cars have to be after the corner to reach it.

Regardind the La Source corner in Spa, I would say - let them use full width of it. Let them chose whether to shorten distance by turning early or keep momentum by going wide. If I recall correctly, when I started to watch F1 in late 80s-early 90's, taking the wide route was a very usual behavior.

I think that those "run-offs" in some of the corners are complete nosnense. If you want to limit how far the driver can go wide in the corner then put a wall there (e.g. champions wall at last corner in Montreal). If thats too dangerous - make those asphalt parking lots but then let the drivers to fully use them. There will be a limit how wide a driver can go before he starts to lose to those who take a tighter line, so there will still be a lot of place for safety. But there will not be a situation, when someone can bitch about the fact, that he was overtaken on the outside of the track. As much I liked Sutil overtaking Badoer on the outside at Spa, I can only ask - why Sutil wasn't punished. And not because I think he did something wrong, but because in Singapore Alonso was punished for similar thing.

The La Source run off is completely nuts IMO. It's way bigger than it needs to be for the speeds at which cars are likely to arrive there and is an invite to ignore the white lines. It's that sort of thing which I find annoying and unwarranted on a racetrack and where there needs to be some punishment. For la Source, I suggest there ought to be some speed bumps running across the run off so that the driver is compelled to get back to the circuit quickly or at least cannot build up speed. Same for other open corners and chicanes - speeds bumps which can seriously harm the car if taken at the wrong speed.

The danger with speed bumps is that they can launch cars too...

La Source is always jammed with cars at the start. Spa rains often so the width is very useful gift to have some meaningful races.

That's a nice sugestion. Have some speed bumps placed on the tarmac run off so nobody exits it full throttle. They don't have to be huge, they just have to prevent anyone from gaining momentum, like those at Monza. I doubt any car would be launched into air at the speeds they travel around the corner.

Irony there is that the rough tarmac on the run-off gives cars more grip hence harder acceleration towards the Eaurouge.

Mr Räikkönen and Mr Coulthard are spot on. Get rid of tarmac runoffs!