Rosberg Demands Clearer Rules for Drivers
29 October 2009

"[Rosberg] took the opportunity to make strong remarks about the standards of driving in modern Formula One - and demanded clarification from the organisers on what is, and what is not, allowed."

"And he then said that he would be more interested in talking about the standards of driving in F1 - shortly before bickering duo Jarno Trulli and Adrian Sutil, who crashed in Brazil two weeks ago, continued their row by arguing in public during an official news conference.

Rosberg said: ‘(Rubens) Barrichello, (Mark) Webber and (Kamui) Kobayashi all did exactly the same thing - defended too aggressively.

‘With Webber, (Kimi) Raikkonen lost his front wing, with Kobayashi, (Kazuki) Nakajima had a massive off, which could have been much worse - you can really hurt yourself, marshals and others in that sort of accident.

‘And with Barrichello, Lewis (Hamilton) ran into the back of his tyre. That was the third time - and it is not allowed to happen.

‘It is Michael Schumacher who started this, like at Spa [in 2000], when Mika Hakkinen tried to overtake him and he ran him off the track. When the guy behind has made a decision [to pass] and the guy in front then moves over, it is very dangerous. You cannot do that.

‘That was the first time I remember it being a dangerous issue, so it needs to be looked at and clarified from my point of view. I will be mentioning it in the drivers’ briefing.

‘I am not saying anyone has done anything wrong [in Brazil], because there has not been a clarification about it, but the view of the drivers needs to be taken into account and we say it is very dangerous. Something needs to be changed.’"

http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle...sports&col=

it all started with MS..

And it ends there - this thread is for discussing current driver antics, it is not going to degenerate into a MS bash.

sorry for that.. It just made me laugh that current drivers take a dig a MS.

While this is probably a bit off topic ... I really don't want to start a new thread about it but it's hilarious

Trulli and Sutil arguing over Brazil in the Abu Dhabi press conference

Well Nico is quite right. These late blocks are no good.

How did you miss http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=117785 for the Trulli / Sutil issue?

Anyway, hard to disagree with what Rosberg says, but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for a clarification. ISTR Hill asking for the same thing, which wasn't forthcoming.

Drivers want clarification on standards

Personally I think 'blocking' should be banned outright.

Indeed! It's silly to mention a guys name as if it's all his fault. This happened before MS, I remember Senna for instance. Then it also happened while MS was racing with others too. One ridiculous incident was when DC complained on MS for his "chops" at the start of races, and then went and did the same himself! What a guy, it was in 2000 or 2001 German GP IIRC.

In principal Rosberg is correct, these blockings are not good. They seem to have forgotten the move-once rule.

Nico is spot on. Hopefully they make it clear that chopping will be banned.

I agree, there should be harsh penalties on drivers who block. Webber has been pulling shitty moves like that and yet only got punished in Germany.

Also, I disagree with Rosberg. MS didn't start the dangerous blocking lest we forget Senna's move in Portugal 88, Prost's in Suzuka 89 and Senna's in Suzuka 90. I will agree though that MS could be a dangerous driver at times and the Spa example was a good one. However, Michael merely followed the examples that others had done before.

If you ban blocking, you don't get dangerous manoeuvres, simple as that. It also helps the overtaking situation as well.

What I don't understand is why people say that the mirrors are next to useless, too small, big vibrations, etc. Yet drivers can place their cars right in front of the overtakers so easily.

Didn't one ex driver suggest they just get rid of mirrors to stop blocking?

Steve.

Bike racers don't use mirrors and race very well with them...you don't see people getting chopped when making a pass.

No cockpit, no hans-device.

I'm no Raikkonen fan as most people will confirm. But even I had a go of Webbers chop against Kimi at Brazil and that wasn't even his first this year. He did a mega chop against Alonso at Barcalona and he also did a late chop against Rubens in Germany, as well as carving up Hamiltons tyre in the same race. As for Trulli's move against Sutil in Brazil? Never in a million years was Mr Trulli Train, going t pull that one off. A cry baby and a complete wussy.

I agree with Rosberg. This has to stop, because of the possible accidents.

Because of possible accidents yeah.

But mostly so we actually see some overtaking.

It's damn near impossible to overtake as it is. Drivers should be allowed to pick their line, and stick to it. Any significant deviation from the norm when coincidently another car is in position to overtake, should be penalised.

Well they still know where the attacking bike is, somehow. They hear it I think, and can see it sooner. There are still chops, but not as many because often both bikes go down. But the mirrors on the cars actually prevent accidents - "accidental accidents" - when everyone's driving fairly.

They did try that rule in Champ cars, towards the end, I thought it made it a bit pathetic really, a car would line up an obvious run down the inside and the car in front just had to stay on the outside and let it happen. It didn't look like racing.

Then of course some drivers would move 'a bit' and there would be the debates just the same

Agree 100%, but on this occasion Trulli's move was a non-starter from the beginning.

I do not remember exactly, but was not the examples you give from 88-90 regarded as "wrong"? I think Nico means that Schumi's Spa block is an example of it suddenly becoming 'ok' and accepted.

The worst move in that first lap was from webber, when he jinked at Kimi on the short straight, breaking his front wing in the process. He wasn't even taking a defensive line he just put him on the grass and then moved back on to the racing line.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8313504.stm

20 seconds in for the UK viewers who can view this link.

Observers may have viewed them as "wrong", but none of the instigators were punished for these incidents.

Ofcourse it's also for the overtaking. But it's pretty hard to make concrete rules for this. It's hard to monitor when you mkae very precise rules.

You are allowed one blocking move, but you can't do it unless the other guy is actually behind you, not alongside. If your blocking move hits the other car, that's intentionally causing avoidable contact. Webber and Kobayashi were each guilty of causing avoidable contact, both of which had further knock-on effects: Webber's move caused the situation to develop with Sutil and Trulli, which also took out Alonso; and Kobayshi's caused Nakajima's huge shunt, which left debris strewn across the track. Both should have served drive-through penalties, at a minimum. I feel they both should also be given grid penalties in the up-coming race.

I don't remember Barrichello's move... <grey hair moment>

It was pretty nasty, bringing Hamilton inches to the pitwall right in the middle of the straight... that kind of crap needs to go.

I absolutely detest grid penalties. What happened in one race should not carry on into the next, period. Grid penalties open up a huge space where results can be fabricated and manipulated.

I agree with you in principle, but worse than grid penalties is when someone has to make a drive through he did not earn. Incidents that is reviewed and investigated after the race have a better chance of leading to correct decisions.

I can agree with both of you, therefore, I'll revise my opinion to suggest that both Webber and Kobayshi should have been disqualified for their actions and Barrichello should've served some penalty, such as the 10-sec stop/go, for dangerous driving.

25 second penalty for that race then - I would rather see someone lose their win at 7pm because he was deemed to have been against the rules during the race a manipulation of the result to allow the papers to be correct on the Monday.

Defensive driving and defending a place is just as much of an art as overtaking, and leads to absolutely spectacular battles - which we'd sorely missed. It's no good turning F1 into ersatz American racing, where there are a million moves and none of them very good - calling to ban all defensive lines is a bit much. Ban it and Raikonnen's move on Fisichella in Suzuka 2007 would never have happened.

There is a rule, and it's very good - it's just not being enforced at all. Drivers are allowed to make one move. No weaving. That move has to be safe. No chopping. The stewards are far, far too squeamish about hauling people up during the race. Kobayashi was dangerous, he weaved, he chopped, it's clearly against the sporting rules as they stand, but they did nothing.

Webber is caught by the rule as well - the existing rule they don't enforce - watch it and he moves once, checks and zigs again - illegal. Forcing people onto the grass is illegal.

For the record, I thought Trulli's crash was all Trulli's fault - there was no way he could get round, and he started the move with Sutil fully committed to the corner. As Stirling Moss points out, once you turn in at the limit, it's like throwing a ball - that car is going where it's going, and Sutil left him more than enough space to back out of the move, but Trulli keeps his boot in and drops the car into the back of Sutil. That's why he's whining so much - he who screams loudest is often hiding the most. If Trulli had backed out, he could have done him in and out like Button did to Grosjean. Trulli is fighting for a drive next year and is desperate for results.

Whats interesting about this is Jenson was the only driver to actually complain about blocking (Kobayashi moving around in the braking zone) during the Brazil race and some people said he was just being a whinger. I wonder if Jenson's been having a friendly chat with Nico (his new teammate)

I think Trulli's spat is hilarious btw. He really should shut up about it now.

Ah, yeah, agreed. The same move Senna put on Prost in...Portugal was it? Utterly idiotic and extremely dangerous.

I agree with Rosberg. These late chops when a driver is committed to passing have been going on for years and are highly dangerous. Brazil had an unusually high number of them so perhaps the drivers need reminding of what is acceptable. However, the stewards took no action against Webber or Kobayashi, so perhaps they welcome this sort of on-track etiquette.

And a bit of a myth. Senna may have squeezed Prost, but he still left him room to pass which Prost duly did. It's only infamous for Prost's Trulliesque response to it!

Kimi did the exact same thing to Schumi as a farewell gift in 2006.

No myth at all. Go back and watch it. It was worse than Barrichello's move on Hamilton.

Nope
Kimi moved ONLY ONCE to block MS's move
but MS squeezed through as Kimi gave him race room (unlike Weber)

I have. And no it wasn't. Strange that it's always mentioned, yet there are dozens of incidents far far worse than Senna V Prost in Portugal.

It was dangerous, but Senna left enough space. He did his blocking attempt too late though, IMO. It could have easily led to to something ugly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zznJjSncGCE

Whatever.. the point is it's still a dirty move, in open-wheelers of all things... what's the point of progressively forcing your adversary towards the wall at the expense of running on the ideal line?

Here's a recent example with comparatively SLOW and safe GT2 tin-tops, ALMS @ Laguna Seca (8:10 mark) : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3y0tbdpcFc

I see: Prost squeezes Senna off the start such that he has a couple of inches of tyre on the grass. Senna squeezes Prost right back, but leaves more than enough room - there is a car width plus two tyre widths, one between Senna and Prost, one between Prost and the wall. Senna makes one defensive move, Prost makes one defensive move.

That is hard but fair driving. It is unrelated to some of the nonsense appearing at Interlagos.

Nico was really asking for a clear stance - consistency - in the application of blocking rules. Look Jack Brabham didn't invent blocking, he perfected it, was a hard bastard, but very fair. What Webber did IMHO was excusable once (against Rubens - didn't see him jink right, penalty) but not the second time (no excuse, no penalty) Kimi had no room to avoid by swerve and too late to brake. Mark either made an error of judgement or it was a dirty block. I'm not a particular fan of Mark but have until recently thought of him as typically Australian - hard but fair. Like Jack. I'd be interested to know what Jack would have though although racing has changed rather a lot.

I was impressed by Nico's comments - he has generally kept it buttoned - but now he is regarded as a front line and experienced driver he has engaged brain first, spoken with honesty and conviction second.

Will Charlie ever be asked his opinion on matters given how rudely overruled he was by the stewards at Spa last year? He has at times appeared the voice of reason, common sense, and at others the sycophant of the Bernie and Max Show.

That's about as far as one can go. At the start Prost squeezes Senna to the outside leaving just exactly enough space to not force him off. After lap one Senna returns the favor. Hard but sportsmanlike racing between two great drivers.

I still think in Brazil 09 Webber, Barrichello and Kobayashi were not at fault. In all 3 cases the driver trying to overtake was still completely behind when they moved. Yet, Rosberg is correct, this can be dangerous. For the sake of avoiding lame penalties the only reasonable rule would then be to disallow blocking. No stupid crap like "when the other one has started his maneuver you may not change lines anymore" or similar stuff. That would only lead to discussions and drivers making up excuses.

Oh really? You just didn't think this through, did you? In your scenario we can have WDC combatants push each other off and cause DNF (no score), and have it not carry into the future races. So then you just get a points advantage and continue pushing your rivals off the track and into DNF, that's the way to do it. Man... Of course some things should be penalized, and penalized harshly, not just in the race where you broke the rules, but in future races as well. For example Michael Schumacher should have had a couple of race bans to start 1998 season after what he did in the last race of 1997. That's the way it should be if F1 is to be a sport.

Sadly, this became a sport of the pussies. Did these guys forgot racing? Did they ever watch a race from Senna, Prost or Mansell?

I am calling for consistency. Webber hit Barrichello in Germany, gets a drive through. Webber hit Kimi in Brazil and gets nothing. Kobayahis's move was a disgrace and he gets nothing. Contact with another car with a chopping manoeuvre, or forcing the other car to take evasive action off the track should not be allowed. The one defensive move you are allowed to take should obviously be taken before the car attempting the overtake is alongside.

I think you'll find Kimi hit Webber.



Which is what Webber did - one defensive move left, and Kimi was a long way from being alongside. Which is why he hit the rear of Webber's back wheel with his front wing.

I can't believe that Webber got away with that reckless move on poor Kimi

The more I see it, the angrier it makes me