Someone needs a hug!
---

Comments about the engine are really polarised. What's the truth of it? Is it an old engine, hamstrung by homologation or does it have an advantage because it's new all the other engines are homolgated?

Let's face it, technology has moved-on since engines were first frozen, and OK there have been developments (probably more than was intended) but nothing like what could have been done. Therefore it isn't going to be hard for Cosworth to bring its engines up-to speed with the rest of them.
Indeed, the last time the engine was used, in 2006, it was competitive in terms of power, it was just as robust as a carton of eggs!

Since the FIA will be very keen for the Cosworth engine to fully competitive this season - it is part of their master-plan after all - then they will allow as much development as it takes to get it up to scratch. The rev limit has been reduced since the engine was last used, so effectively all Cosworth need to do is detune it, make it reliable and make it use less fuel.
A much lesser challenge than the one they had 4 years ago don't you think?

The problem with Williams IMO is Sam Michaels. Williams in season development always stagnate. This is a case of leadership and directing the limited resources into improving the car efficiently. Force India did not have tons of money to burn, but they did a better development job than Williams. Why? Because the employed Mclaren processes in identifying the priority areas when developing a car. The Williams started the season a top 3 car and come the end they were nowhere. Something is wrong somewhere, and you've got to look at the top for the answers.

My understanding is that the Toyota engine suffered more than most with the rev reduction and there was always a good chance Toyota would bugger off at the end of the season... which they now have. The original driver/engine deal was important financially.



Hear, hear!

As you mentioned though, they do have limited resources. Force India, let's not forget, started with a much lower baseline than Williams did this season, so of course it was easier for them to improve the car (I'm not saying that FI didn't do an exceptionally good job by the way). The FI was also only fast on some tracks whereas Williams was quick on all circuits.
As some have mentioned, Williams (like Brawn & Toyota) had the benefit of the double diffuser at the start of the season. If you compare Brawn's pace at the start/end of the season to that of Williams you'd have to say that Williams have done a better job at keeping pace.

Looking at Rosberg's performances, OK he scored less points in the second half of the season, but his qualifying pace was fairly similar (with his best quali result being in the second).
Nakajima too - although probably more to do with the driver getting more out of the car - actually had a much better second half than first half.

My personal opinion is that Sam Michael doesn't do a bad job, working on a limited budget they achieve a consistent (if not mind-blowing) level of performance. There is almost always a Williams in Q3 of qualifying, which is a good achievement and not one that you can purely put down to the driver otherwise Jarno Trulli would have done the same thing.

To my mind Willi's are doing a great job with what they have and I'm still proud to be a fan.

I worry for Williams a bit this coming season. They had the diffuser already incorporated and didn't have to do a botch job like Renault, BMW, Ferrari and Mclaren. They also could sculpt their bodywork by not bing compromised by KERS and its cooling requirements. Williams will also have to install a new engine with new ancillaries. I see a greater scope for improvement from the original KERS and non diffuser teams, than I do with Williams.

I don't know how many times it has been claimed that the Cosworth in 2006 was fragile and broke down? The FACT is that there was only ONE engine failure from Cosworth in 2006 (big end bearing related). I don't know how many times I have replied on this previously, but it seems that people just don't read that... Compare that to Mercedes who had plenty of failures in 2006, no one seems to bring that up anymore.

Williams is also confident about the Cosworth engine:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80041

All valid arguments, but I'm keeping the faith...

I would counter that they will benefit from having two good drivers and a better engine. Whether ditching Toyota was good luck or good judgement, it will no doubt have benefited them greatly in the design of next year's car that they knew a little earlier that they wouldn't be running with Toyota engines. Also Williams did develop a KERS system (or two) themselves, so they must have incorporated into the design a place to put it just like the rest of the teams that didn't run it in every race.

off topic comment, my porrige and the person who pissed in it has no relation whatsoever to williams F1 team

Really? I remember distinctly that Webber had an engine failure at Monaco because I had £20 on him to win (at 25/1)!
Are you serious that that was the only engine failure Cossie had all season?

I'm not disagreeing with you, it's just the first I've heard of it.


Edit. No need to reply to this, I've just read the interview you linked to... sorry, my mistake, sorry.... taxi for Egg

well maybe not a hug

but I really do need friends and allies since that chevy on me started

IIRC correctly, they resigned him before he decided to renege on a contract and got a large amount of money out of that. They didn't exactly discard him, IMO they have had better drivers instead since.

No need to reply but anyway I think the exhausts burnt through wiring if I remember correctly.

Kick a man while he's down why don't you

Now you say that I do remember it being his exhaust, it was a long time ago and my brain must have filed it away under E for err exhaust, engine, elephant.... engine's close enough

You win this time, DFV

WOW, profound!

Thank you for your valuable input into the discussion.

I posted in the Cosworth thread that the CA2006 did have a problem with the protective coating on its con-rods. It meant that only brand new engines could be run at 20,000 rpm. The engine was run at about 18,500 to protect the coating. The thing is that it was not the CA2006 that was homogolated but the CA2007 which Cosworth say had been fixed.

Cosworth has now had twelve months to develop the engine. Even if this involved only planning what needs to be done to the engine, I find it incomprehensible that Max has not channelled some money to Cosworth to enable the project to start. When Patrick made his comment about the Cosworth engine being thirsty, which seems to be the source of the story, I took it at face value. At the time I was convinced that we would be using the Renault engine. Maybe he made his comment with his tongue in his cheek.

Anyway. Cosworth is not a bunch of enthusiastic amateurs developing something in a garden shed. It is a highly specialised hi-tech engineering outfit that developed the CA2006 from start to finish in about twelve months. Converting the CA2007 time-trial engine into the CA2010 fuel efficient engine is something it is more than capable of. Cosworth will not deliver a pup of an engine.

I wasn't trying to be rude or anything. It was this part of your comment that I found very good, kind of self ironic:



So I was just applauding your dry witted response

From Cosworths Simon Corbyn (March 2007):

Well I let you off then, but just this once young man!

And besides your posts where factual and you checked the facts and ammended your view. It would have been completely bad mannered and rude of me to laugh at you for that. That would have made me a very little man indeed.

Laughing at me would have made you Bernie Ecclestone?

Well I'm 6'2 (185cm) so that's not very likely...

It was only Williams' financial position that forced us to move to Toyota. I am looking forward to seeing us race with Cosworth once more.

Does anyone know if we will be using Cosworth engines for the pre-Christmas tests?

I think I was there for that. Where did he stop? I was sat between Tabac and the Swimming Pool. I remember being absolutely gutted.

I can't remember, I only know I was somewhere between Ladbrookes and gutted!

Really good read, cheers

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=114022

Saw this posted in a Williams forum (nice find by Umbrella Girl, a stalwart in that place) so thought I'd copy over to here as its pretty interesting in a general Williams kind of way....

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/572604-rich-man-faster-man

Ooh do tell (by PM so you don't get in trouble).

Can you share with me too, please?



By the way, when do you guys reckon that 2010 Williams merchandise will be available? I can't wait to get a Williams/Rubens cap!

nice gem there lord snooty

Cheers Snooty

Merchandise won't be around till next year seltaeb, Nico and Kaz are still the contracted drivers till the end of 2009.

Ah, ok, thanks I will save up the pennies for some Williams gear in 2010.

Sorry to repeat the question, but does any know what engine Williams will be using in the pre-Christmas testing?

I don't know for certain, but since the contract with Toyboata will run till the end of 09 and the tests will be run with the 09 car I imagine this years lump will be inside it.

I'm quite excited about the Cosworth move for Williams - and yes, I am also dismayed at the comments that the 2006 version was fragile and so on. Like Rosberg getting the boot put into him for the ONE real mistake (Singapore) which was so cruelly costly).

The new driver line-up - while not exactly, no expenses spared dream-team - is balanced. I hope they get the new car on the track early and that Ruby is well motivated to lead the team back to the podium.

I seem to remember a quote from Patric Head or Sam Michael a few months ago basically stating that the existing teams shouldn't worry about the cosworth engine 'cause it's going to be seconds off the pace.

Are they now talking it up because of sponsors?

The general understanding now is that the Cosworth should be powerful (Cosworth is reported to have promised 15HP more than the Mercedes) but the uncertainties remains with reliability (with only 8 engines available per car) and fuel consumption. The original engine was however very reliable when running at 20.000rpm and should be a very good base to start from (unlike the Mercedes which was a disaster in reliability and performance terms at the start of 2006).

If you have read that it was overweight, just forget it. There is a minimum 95kg limit and even Cosworths previous V10 was way below that. The CA is designed with the 95kg and COG rules in mind, Cosworth had to add weight to get to the 95kg limit and comply with the COG requirement. The extra weight speculation was based on the fact that the Cosworth originally was supposed to be allowed to rev to 20.000rpm and would therefore use more fuel (would have to carry 18-20kg more fuel).

If sponsors was the reasoning I think the Renault would have been better as that supposedly comes with TOTAL backing.

I think we need to remember - particularly if it was Patrick's comment - quite how mischievous both Head and Williams can be. Half the time, if they have said that the Cosworth motor won't be up to speed, it will be because one of their reps is stood within earshot - much to the amusement of the 'old boys' at Williams.
Also at their complete lack of media training - I doubt if they have ever said anything just for the sake of sponsors other than 'take the fuel out of her boys, we'll give them fastest practice lap to keep em' happy'!

Reasons why Williams is loved and despised in equal measures.

Weight will not be a problem although there is always a desire to reduce weight in some areas of the engine.

Reliability in general should not be a problem either. The engine was designed to run at 20,000 rpm and being limited to 18,000 rpm will reduce engine wear.

However, having said that, it will be all engines standing the 2010 grid will be going into the unknown and not just the Cosworth. All teams will have to nurse their engines to help prevent failure. There is a danger that an an engine can be over-revved early in a race through carrying extra weight. We have seen this year how some engines have not made it through their full allocation of races and heavier cars means that this risk will increase. It is something that all engines will susceptible to.

When Patrick made his fuel consumption comment I took him at his word. Although rereading what he said, he also said that the engine should be allowed to run at 20,000 rpm to compensate. I hope that he was just having a bit of fun with journalists. If he said it to put up a smoke screen then it seems to have worked. The story has certainly been presented by the press as being fact. It also appears to be the only source for a slow thirsty engine. I hope that Patrick was having a chuckle in the same way he was when he said that had developed a revolutionary differential all those years ago.

When Head made his comment the Cosworths were supposed to run at 20.000rpm, that's why they would use more fuel. It wasn't Head that suggested they should be allowed to run to 20.000rpm. The FIA (Mosley) originally planned that the Cosworths should be allowed to run at 20.000rpm and not be limited to 8 engines per season. The reasoning from Mosley was that there was not sufficient time for Cosworth to increase reliability to 8 engines per season and to detune their engines to run, competitively, at 18.000rpm.

That's were the overweight (having to carry 18-20kg more fuel) and fuel consumption issues (revving to 20.000rpm requires more fuel) derives from.

So is there any news on the sponsorship front? I assume Air Asia would be a prime candidate to move on to Lotus, seeing as the boss of Air Asia is invovled in that project.

Q&A with Sam:
http://www.attwilliams.com/news/view/1189

He reviews 2009 season and talks about 2010

Noting as of yet, I'm sure I remember that Phillips ramped up their involvement last year and were thinking of increasing their sponsorship further for 2010.

Good article, I am actually interested to see how Soucek does. Not sure what programme the team will have him on but for the sake of F2 credibility I hope he does OK

Sam on how circuits could help overtaking:

http://www.silverstone.co.uk/news/latest-n...uld-improve-F1/

nice find

Williams' 2010 contender FW32 will be released to the public in January 31st at Valencia.
Barrichello will make his debut in a Williams F1 car the day after, February 1st.

Barrichello on an interview to Brazilian's GloboEsporte.

Roll on January 31st then!