So are you saying that you pity him, or that you find him annoying, or that you think he would be more successful without this character flaw, or that he diminishes NASCAR?

With her levels of experience, that save should have been seen as nothing out of the ordinary. Loeb would have done that save one handed, while eating a Croissant. She kept it out of the wall, and the U.S motorsport media is having orgasms over it. HOW LONG HAS SHE BEEN RACING?

Gordon certainly did catch a lot of hell from the rednecks, but the USAC crowd at ESPN (who IIRC also had a hand in managing Gordon) got him a lot of hype. This more more an Indycar story than a NASCAR story; as Gordon's failed CART bid was used as a big stick to beat Chevy And Rich Teamowners with, but certainly Gordon had the motor sport media with him all the way. That opened the same kind of doors for him that'll be open for Danica, who's already talking about jumping straight into Nationwide for this weekend. She'll have a competitive full-time Cup ride as soon as she and her management want it.

Of course, Danica's also got the kind of redneck mass support that's usually reserved for Dale Earnhardt, Jr. Should make her a formidable marketing weapon both for herself and for NASCAR. But there's that received wisdom that Hollywood actresses get about half the career span of their male counterparts. Will Danica have the same potency as a media icon when she's aged 45? Mark Martin and Dale Earnhardt showed that you can certainly still compete at the highest level at that age, and still be pretty marketable, if you're a man. Motor racing's only ever had one female superstar, Michele Mouton, and she quit aged 35 and started a family.

Perhaps you are familiar with details of Gordon's career of which I am ignorant, as I am not aware of a "failed CART bid" (I'm not trying to imply scepticism, only that I hadn't heard of it).
Regardless of that, he was unmistakably star material whilst he was still a teenager and winning midget and sprint car races. At that point, one could have imagined him staying with open-wheelers, or going to NASCAR, but certainly he had very bright prospects, and they were the result of what he did on the track, not of an ESPN hype campaign. Likewise the Davis->Hendrick move. At the time, one wished that he would stay with Davis because of the underdog/loyalty sentiments, but after seeing how well he was running in Busch by, say, the final third of his first year, it was clear that he would end up in a top WC ride sooner rather than later.
Patrick is different. I could not say how much driving talent and ability she has, although it does not appear to be at Gordon's level, for the simple reason that Gordon's was exceptional. Leaving that to one side, the fact that she is a twee woman whom some men reportedly find attractive, and the fact that she is a feisty character with a chip on her shoulder, have given her certain career advantages that Gordon did not enjoy.

So mediocre she finished 5th in the championship ahead of her male team-mates, and wasn't she about 6th the year before? She's demonstrated that:

She can overtake

She can tough it out fender to fender

She doesn't panic when in a sticky situation.

I think her experience in stock car could improve her performance in IRL

and has won once in over 100 races...

Personally, I think her experience in NASCAR is going to make realize how much time she's wasted on the irl, and will make her leave that series even faster than she is set up to do now.

Hmmmm, see I do classify as very mediocre the 5th, 6th, 7th, 9th, and 12th places she has attained over 5 years in a series that really can't be seen on a world-basis as anything more than slightly better than mid-level. I'm honestly not sure how you could rate such performance any higher. I'm not saying her finishes were poor, but they're also certainly not as high as a number of others who've struggled in NASCAR; i.e. Sam Hornish or Dario Franchitti to name two that spring immediately to mind. Honestly, would anybody seriously and sensibly, or even sanely for that matter, rate Ms Patrick a more talented and better performed IRL driver than either of those?

Neil

Well she doesn't drive for Ganassi or Penske does she? How many oval races have been won by AGR in the last 2 years (Or any Team beside Penske and Ganassi). Yes, Franchitti and Kanaan won some in 07, which was her first season for a top team... I don't try to defend her but she was never in the best car, how many races won Jenson Button before 2009? Exactly one, does that make him a medicore driver?...

looks offical she's in the nationwide race....


http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/08...but-at-daytona/

While all this oh yes she is/oh no she's not talk about danica is quite entertaining there are more important issues not being discussed....
THE DAYTONA 500 IS ON THIS WEEKEND!!!
Who does everybody fancy for the win?
Personally i'd love to be able to say JPM but i cant see him being able to find anyone to help him in the last 5 laps, but then again you never can tell.
And equally important (to me anyways) will it be shown in the uk???

No, she doesn't. And if the those are the only two teams that *can* win, I guess that answers the question about how deep the field is in the irl, doesn't it?
Using Button, or any F-1 driver as a yardstick for danica is...uh...

Sky Sports3 - 6pm Sunday LIVE
Jp

I just want to know where Elliott will start. Am I the only one that thinks this whole quali format is bull? Fastest 43 cars in, who cares how you did last year. Especially with owners points being sold.

btw, Mark Martin will get it.

I just want to remind folks there is a Daytona race week(end) thread already.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=123408

carry on.

Somewhat, a little, definitely, no.

That depends on what one considers a motorsport superstar. Over here we've had women racing for decades, some doing quite well. Shirley Muldowney, ( 3 titles) Ashley Force and Angele Sampey (3 titles) would be considered superstars over here. Melanie Troxel didn't do too bad either. Mouton had no titles and only 4 wins. Erin Crocker had a better record in WoO. Overseas it seems that female drivers are still thought of as a novelty. Say what you want about the US and racing in the US but we've had competitive gals in a variety of cars.

While Danica did well on a first outing in stock cars (can't say that about Nelsinho) the real test will be this weekend in the Nationwide race and Fontana and Vegas.

My wife and I have tickets to Fontana and Las Vegas so I'm getting antsy already. Hope to get lots of pictures.

As with all counter-factuals, we shall never know.
In any case, please keep in mind that humility and self-effacement are much more the norm in US racing, and especially in NASCAR, than they are in the arrogant European racing community.

Michele Mouton was among the best - perhaps the best - for a while in rallying and motorsport in general. She could have comfortably reeled off a decade of lesser titles. And women have been competing in motorsports for decades around the world.

JPM will have @ least 5 people with an intrest in working with him - that would be his DEI teammates and the attached RCR teammates.. if kevin harvick has a choice of pushing JPM or Jeff Gorden to the win, he's gunna choose JPM, cuz that's what his boss wants him to do.

Yes, I know, I've been watching all kinds of US racing for 13 years now. I'm not an F1 fan new to American racing, if that's what you're thinking.

Will there actually be any pushing this year? Those cars looked mighty unstable in the shootout.

Did Gordon get any flak for the wreck on the last lap? I saw the finish but no post race reports afterward.

Biffle had a tyre going down was the generally accepted story.

And over half the field have never won at all.....

I just want to remind folks there is a Daytona race week(end) thread already.

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=123408

carry on.

think we remember gordon's start in cup differently. i remember several wrecks after wrecks after wrecks all through his first three years. he had the cars, but took a long time to figure out how to race them...... through most of career, his favorite thing was to get out front with 5 to go, and wrecking out a lap car to protect the lead by finishing under caution - hence why the green-white-checker is often reffered to as the "Gordo Nerf" with earnhardt and petty fans.

the finish's look less impressive when you post them backwards - such as you have done there - she has gained / gone up the ranks every year - showing a consistant level of improvement, instead of a declining lack of it as you are mis-representing here.... and again most of those years she finished ahead of one or more of her teammates.

when your discussing the IRL, you're talking about a series that has two teams @ the top in terms of equiptment that will win 90% of the events, while faulting her for being on the third, fourth, and fifth tier teams that couldn't field a car capable of equeal results even when driven by the same driver. - last year she beat out Tony Kanaan, her teammate, with the same equiptment - if you don't think she has any talent, then obviously you're saying he has less then that.

I noticed something in the Duel race with Montoyas drafting.

I know he is still what one could consider new to NASCAR and new to the fine art and tricks of drafting, and I think it showed. When he was drafting with Jr he would sometimes not clearly stay behind him, I know its hard to hold a line at those speeds on that bumpy tarmac of Daytona, but other cars looked a little bit smoother and better lined up then when JPM was behind Jr.

Then there was another situation where I think his inexperience hurted him a little. Towards the end of the race he cought a huge run out of Turn 2 on the outside line. He had so much momentum that it looked like he could either go by Stewart on the inside or outside or hook up with him and go all the way to the front. Instead it appeared like JPM kept the pedal down and really slamdrafted Tony. The bumpdraft that he gave Stewart was so hard, that Stewart got catapulted forward and JPM not only killed his own momentum but literally slowed down after the huge bump, and lose ground to the cars on the inside line. It opened up a big gap of several car lengths between him and Stewart and they couldnt effectively draft anymore.

I hope that they analyse stuff like this and to see Montoya next time when he is in a situation like that where he has a hug run, not slamdraft the car infront but use some throttle modulation to time it exactly right to bumpdraft, but also stay right on the bumper of the guy infront.

Are you sure you're not generalizing from one incident, at best? The "Gordo Nerf" also strikes me as something made up, since GWC in Cup came long after Gordon's first years.

The big push for GWC came in 2004 or 05 when, not surprisingly, Gordon was inches ahead of Dale Jr. at Talladega when a yellow came out. He did a burn out through all the beer cans that were thrown on the track. There was also a race at Pocono when a fan assaulted the flagman with a cooler when the race ended under green

The GWC came about because fans complained about races ending under caution, not because one driver, especially not Jeff Gordon. I've never heard that "Gordo Nerf" term either.

And whoever said Gordon struggled his first 3 years with a lot of wrecked cars is partially wrong. 93 was his first full season and was average for a rookie but I believe he won a Daytona Duel (almost unheard of for a rookie to win anything during those times). He had 11 DNFs but an average finish of around 17th, pretty much on par for a rookie. 94 he won the Brickyard and the 600, and in 95 he was champion. That's hardly three years of struggling. He wrecked some but I wouldn't define that as struggling considering he finished well whenever he didn't wreck. Certainly not 3 years, more like 1.5 and not a huge surprise considering his age at the time. He didn't knock people out of the way frequently either. What he did have was an uncanny knack for was driving right up to the bumper of the opposing car and wiggling back and forth slightly without ever making contact. This motion was enough to cause an air disturbance forcing the guy in front of him to get loose and move up the race track. That's far from "rattling his cage" to borrow a phrase from Dale Sr.

he averaged 3-5 wins under cautions that he caused for every one of his championship years - as an old school earnhardt fan, we kept track of those things very closely. the term gordo nerf is a recent thing as the term comes from the MMO comunity - prior to that it was just called the gordon rule. - same thing was brought up when they went to the single engine rule - hendricks was the worse for that too, they would build one engine that could barely last 5 laps to qualify on, one to practice with, and one to put 15 laps on in final practice then race with. - then pitch em all and do it again the next race.

Sorry, I call bullshit. This has absolutely no connection with reality. I was not watching NASCAR in 1995, but the next three Gordon's championship years I was watching for the whole season. What you are saying does not even remotely jive with my memory, I can't remember even one occurrence like you describe. In fact, I remember Gordon being involved in very few questionable crashes altogether, he was not known as a dirty driver since I started watching in 1997. While my memory may not be perfect, I'm sure I would not forget 9-15 incidents. I don't know how this fantasy came about, but obviously someone let their imagination get the best of their memory.

Anyone picked up this book? I'm thinking of buying it.
http://www.amazon.com/He-Crashed-Him-Back-.../dp/0316034029/

Girlfriend Live
Jp

i haven't yet, but i'd expect it to be a good insight as to the mentality of paybacks - i remember those days and i'm sure there's plenty of good stories there

going by the conversation durring final practice on speed today, Rusty Wallace seems to remember it quite well.

What exactly did he remember? The time about ten years ago when they dumped each other once, and had a couple of bump-and-runs? Or Gordon creating yellows all the time near the end of the race?

I'm not trying to stir things up with you personally, but any complaint that Jeff Gordon was a dirty driver would be a bit rich coming from the Earnhardt Sr fan base, don't you think?
Also, and I appreciate that this in itself would not be conclusive, Gordon learned his trade in sprints and midgets, where, if you lock wheels with somebody, at least one of you ends up either in hospital or at the undertakers'. Compared with some of the crap that I've seen through the years - Dale Sr, J. Spencer, Kyle Busch, T. Stewart, G. Bodine, David Pearson was known to use his bumper, and let's not even think about Curtis Turner - Gordon hasn't been out of line that often.

Wrt another poster, as for whether Gordon did or did not keep making self-defeating mistakes on the circuit in his early years, when he was barely 24 yrs old he won the Winston Cup championship, so he couldn't have been that bad!

Is it fair to say that Patrick seemed relatively competent in the Nationwide race, given the large number of Cup drivers in the race?

Agreed. I was just about to say something similar. I also agree with Dmitri's sentiments as well. Nothing about Gordon being a dirty driver or using "cheap" tactics sticks. Heck, many would call him soft. I don't even see how an Earnhardt fan can criticize another driver for being dirty either. Don't get me wrong, I liked and respected Senior but he would knock a driver in the wall, not out of the groove, IN THE WALL and tell him "tough sh!t" afterwards. Plus, I totally disagree on that engine rule being solely because of Hendrick. The engine rule was put in place to curb costs. EVERY team was taking advantage of multiple engines, not just one.




Define "fairly competent". If you mean she didn't totally embarrass herself, then yes. Personally, I thought she struggled a lot more than what the press coverage may make it out to be. She dropped to the back pretty quickly and seemed to be very timid in traffic (though you could expect that). Her crew spent a lot of radio time coaching her up on how to draft but she seemed hesitant to try it and was left running in the 30s all day. She had moved up to around 20 to 25th with some passing but also some others falling out when she got taken out herself in a wreck. I felt she had enough time to miss the wreck based on seeing others in a similar spot but apparently not because she drove right into it. That could also be a reaction time/lack of experience thing as well. All in all I'd say it was good learning experience yet a rude awakening for all those who thought Danica would set the world on fire after her ARCA finish. I'm still ify on her though. I want to give her a few more races.

What you see from the overhead perspective is a lot different than what you see when you are in the seat. You don't see that there is no visibility from the driver's standpoint and the closing distances are very fast. She did what the spotter said. I expect at a non plate track she'll fair a bit better. Bump drafting takes time to perfect.

I feel like people trashing her for not avoiding the crash are being a bit harsh. The view from her car was all smoke and like you said, she did what the spotter told her. She was pathetically slow at the start but seemed to be figuring things out around the time of the crash. Like any rookie, all I'm looking for from her at this point is steady improvement. Of course, she isn't just any rookie, which means she will get unusual advantages and inordinate amounts of attention both negative and positive. Whatever happens this year, the Nationwide series is going to get a serious ratings bump and races will be more compelling when she's there.

the incident that started the fight with rusty and gordo was a richmond race, Rusty was 4 laps down gordo was leading with 5 to go.. rusty moved down to let him pass, gordon moved down tapped him in the rear and sent him off into the grass and finished the race under caution.

also remember darligtion where a lap down sterling marlin was sent spinning into the inside wall from a touch on the left reap QP by leader 24 with 7 to go to finish under caution. also remember one in charlette where he sent one of the bodines sliding sideways down pit road by side swiping them as he was putting em a lap down - that time was after learning he didn't have enough gass to finish the race under green.

i know there are more, but these three are stand out races.

earnhardt banged and beat on guys that were fighting him for a spot he wanted - jeff had a tendencey to spin people who wern't in the run for a win whenever he needed a caution. - there's a difference between wrecking someone while fighting them for position, and "spinning unsuspecting drivers that are just trying to ride out laps for a tatical advantage." - as Rusty had put it back in the day.

her car was pushing pretty bad the first stint - she fell back intentionaly to ride out till the first pit stop where they could work on it - and happened to lose the draft - by the time she was taken out in the big one, she had gotten the car driving the way she wanted and it was solid under her. - that in it's self shows that she is learning what she needs too.... she's coming from a back ground where the computer data on the car was what determined what changes the car got, not what the driver wants - and for her to be able to diagnose and give back feedback that lead to an actual improvement is the best sign of potential i saw from her all speed weeks..... that was the same thing i saw from JPM when he was crossing over, and didn't see from hornish or dario when they tried.

highlights from her day today http://www.nascar.com/video/nationwide-ser..._danica.nascar/

edit to add Dale Jr.s wreck as well. - http://www.nascar.com/video/nationwide-ser...scar/index.html

When did that Richmond race happen?

I actually tried to verify this account, but couldn't find anything even remotely close. It wasn't that hard to do either, as Gordon only won 2 races at Richmond. The 1996 win was under green with Wallace finishing on the lead lap, in 2000 Wallace blew the engine and didn't even run at the finish.

might not have been richmond then, i remember the wrecks more then which tracks they happen on. richmond was the track that rusty brought up today on the broadcast, i was assuming he was referring to the same wreck i was thinking of, might not have been. - i remember it was a night race, short track with a grass infield between the track and pits... pretty sure it was the year he was defending his second championship as well.

don't get me wrong i like the man now and agree he belongs with the best drivers the sport of Auto-racing in general has ever seen......just pointing out he was as shady as anyone else has ever been. - and that's a good thing IMO. - racing is about taking every chance you have to win, not finishing second because you thought it was too risky... sometimes that's a gamble on tires or fuel, sometimes that means you might wreck from time to time, sometimes that means using the current rule system to your advantage.

I'm not a fan of Gordon and I'm not defending him. I just find this charge against him to be fascinating for its bizarreness. My guess as to what really happened is that there maybe was one real incident were Gordon possibly spun someone to bring out a caution, or just happened to benefit from it. Then over time that one incident turned into two, and then into five, and then into five each season, and in a couple of years the count will exceed the total number of his wins.

I've seen the same thing happening with NASCAR fans' perception of Montoya a year or so ago. Despite him being pretty much clean for the whole season, it was an undisputed fact that Montoya wrecked someone every week. No one ever stopped to count, it was something they believed, and so it was the truth. NASCAR fans are not a very analytical bunch.

The difference is,

when Dale Sr dumped someone, it was old school hard racin´.

when Jeff Gordon dumped someone, it was simply dirty driving.

It isn´t about whatever strange criteria NASCAR fans cook up. It´s all about personal image and fan base. Good ole racer from deep south can do it. Poser from California? No way. Gordo was too succesful in comparison to his background, looks, accent, etc. Alas, these myths were born. He did this or that million times, but I cannot pintpoint where and when.

EDIT - I think Dmitriy_Guller nailed it.