You don't get it, that's just media hand-wringing. The UA problem will NEVER be resolved because it can't be. Toyota had a can't-bring-car-under-control problem which is what killed people when they encountered UA.

Interesting exerpt from the link:

"The driver of a 2008 Camry, which received fixes under two Toyota recalls, wrote in a complaint that the sedan speeds up when it is started."I can drive up to 30 miles an hour without applying the gas," the driver wrote"

It doesn't say if the car suddenly cuts out once it gets to 30!

LOL

now bloggers are reporting toyo CORPrats with holding crash data in the CPU records

most all new cars data record speed, brake use, seatbelt use, and other data in the airbag deployment cycle mode

GM records and will give law enforcement this CPU data saved a few seconds before a crash
a local miami case a few years ago was one of the first to get a conviction in a fatal crash based mostly on this data
TOYO CORPrat system is trying not to share what ever data they do record in their CPU post crash
claiming only a few special devices can get the data and need trained operators and want 5000 just to download one crash data
so the legal beegals and law enforcement are not getting this data yet

I asked IF anyone had seen data from the cars CPU post a runaway crash in the first few pages of this thread
and still never seen any data

Funny...

My sister was told that they'd checked the computer's record at the dealership, and this is just the day after the incident, and it showed no inconsistency between the pedal and the throttle.

Can they check it just like that anywhere or not?

Ray b is talking about saved data from when the airbags deploy, that can be viewed later. It sounds like what the dealer did was to check the action of the throttle live, when they had the car in their hands.

Most probably the ECU also checks TPS signal versus pedal signal continuously and logs an error code in memory if an incompatibility occurs.

The dealer's observation that this code wasn't present in the Corolla's case is not at all conclusive IMO.

Unless the ECM is programmed to recognize that the malfunction is indeed a malfunction, it won't register a trouble code (DTC) or record the event so it can be recovered later. So it is perfectly normal and to be expected that the dealer would access the car's memory the next day and find nothing. The manufacturer has tried to claim that the absence of DTCs proves there is no problem, but that is essentially baloney.

Electronic throttle control is considerably more complicated than that. If you think about it, the whole purpose of ETC is to allow throttle command to diverge from pedal input, so very seldom do their values actually align. As a result, the command structures that operate the throttle, and the diagnositcs that monitor them as well, are based on complicated algorithms like e-quizzers and plausibility analyzers.

as I understand the airbag deployment data recording
data is recorded only when there is a crash and only for a brief few sec before the crash
other wise the data is over written and NOT saved or viewable

I donot know if this is by law or just something the car makers decided to do to check on airbags going off
or if all airbag equipped cars do this recording or just some made after a give date that may vary by maker
and if all cars record the same data or each maker has their own standards

as far as I know this data is only recorded if and only if the bags go off
so no crash no data to see
now most cars record error codes but that data is not the same as crash data
and I suspect the dealer in mr bells sisters case just looked at the error code report
as there was no crash thankfully so it could not be the airbag data that was read

any one know if there is a USA law on this data as far as the points recorded and time of the record

anyway the bloggers are saying toyo is not allowing this data to be seen at this time

that reinforces my thinking that the mat and petal BS is not the root cause
but there is a software glitch somewhere

Who has legal ownership of this data?

Interesting...you don't sign a software license agreement when you buy your car, but in the US at least, it might still be covered under the DMCA - so still be Toyota's.

here is the link to the ''is toyo hiding data post''

http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Is-Toyot...ata-030510.aspx

Toyota sees it as a privacy issue for their customers. I don't want my car testifying against me. Someday when speeding isn't an option, maybe you'll figure this out.

I think even if Toyota retained ownership of software in your car, any data generated during operation should be the property of the vehicle owner.

never owned a car that will spy on me yet

Data can be recorded when a fault is detected that triggers a Diagnostic Trouble Code. It will only capture the instantaneous data at the moment the DTC set, whereas the crash recorder will save the previous 30 seconds of data IIRC.

But as McG said, there was likely never any fault detected by the ECU either because there was none, or because it was not capable of detecting the fault.

My understanding of the crash data record is that it is a mandatory requirement and it can only be retrieved by the manufacturers, or by law enforcement agencies with a warrant. Perhaps because there has never been any criminal investigation of these crashes, law enforcement have never seen the data.

I could be very wrong on this subject, it's just what I think I know.

No arguments from me.

No, quite emphatically, they were saying the data recorded about the time of the incident showed no conflict between the pedal and the throttle...

It wasn't any testing they did there at the dealership.

So it's further proof, apparently, that they are all bull.

Now, what I need is to find someone who can convert the Toymotor logo into the face of a bull...

Not the face I would think...

Any thoughts about the latest incident in the news, the one with the Prius in California?

This one?

I think they might have a hard time with this one. One assumes there was no mat to blame as it wasn't mentioned and the people were aware of the mat issue.

Wow, so the driver needed a CHIPpie to tell him to apply the brakes and then cut the engine?

Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely no fan of too much electronics and software in critical areas of cars, but sometimes I can't help but ask myself about the quality of driver's school in the Big Country.

Zoe

School? LOL.

I presume you are not from the States? "Driver's School" here is about passing the license test and not about building skills.

Not sure about Europe, although my understanding is that driving school is more extensive than the US due to high costs/insurance premiums.

My thoughts? The media is in a feeding frenzy. It is getting a bit ridiculous.

And Toyota's atrocious handling of this mess doesn't seem to have improved. Their limp-dicked advertisements showing auto workers holding gas pedals is astoundingly lame and doesn't do crap to restore their reputation. Unbelieveable.

We don't really have driver training as such in the USA. There is a sort of "school" but it doesn't teach anything about driving. There is an exam but it doesn't validate anything except knowledge of traffic laws and a basic ability to keep the vehicle between the curbs and off the sidewalk. In my state the driving exam used to include a parallel parking test but it was eliminated -- too difficult.

I got out of that by default. I had a '78 Mercury Montego station wagon.

Well, many years ago I was (half jokingly) contemplating of applying for a driver's license in the US (since I spent quite some time over there). Turned out that the theoretical questions were easy for me to pass, even as a f*ckin furriner, but the apparent need for a social security ID eventually prevented me from getting one. No one told me about a minimum of driving lessons required for the license.

In Germany there IS a minimum of hours spent at a driver's school (including theory), and at least at the time I got my license, the lessons included things like parallel parking, driving up a hill, night drive, country road and Autobahn driving.

Not sure that this will teach people how to react when something goes wrong with the car, though. The ignorance of the masses about the most fundamental issues is frightening.

Zoe

Since when does the parking brake cut the engine? Since Toyota decided it, a few years ago. This is the first time I've heard of it and I'm not exactly living under a rock when it comes to automotive developments and technology.

So sure, there's room enough to blame the driver for not even trying the electronic parking brake, but the principal criticism has to be reserved for Toyota who just up and unilaterally decided one day to change everything about how a vehicle is operated.

BTW the 9-1-1 call from the older gent in SoCal was replayed on the news this morning.

The 9-1-1 operator asked him to shift to "Neutral," he responded by saying "No, I'm trying to control the car." Part of me thinks that this is absolute BS ... I've driven at those speeds before and it wasn't a big deal ... ... the other part of me thinks that a "normal roadgoing person" freaks out with an emergency at speeds over 60 mph.

Doesn't it seem odd that San Diego is the one place on earth where Toyotas run up to full speed with drivers who can't think of a single reasonable thing to do to stop them but who do dial 911 on their phones? This is the same scenario that occured with a police officer calling from a speeding Lexus SUV before crashing into another vehicle and dying with some family members. At the time, it seemed ridiculous to make a phone call rather than shift out of gear, shut off the engine, press the brake hard and continuously until stopped, or scrub off speed on the barriers that line the center median of our entire freeway system. Now, the exact same situation didn't happen anywhere else in the world of Toyota drivers, it happened right here and a cop was in place to respond to the 911 call by driving next to the Prius and coaching the driver. Good thing this cop wasn't as competent as the one who died in the Lexus, or he wouldn't have had a clue how to talk someone down over a bullhorn. Incidentally, at least one local TV news report said that the cop let the Prius driver use his car as a brake. Considering the Prius was undamaged, I'd say that points to this being staged. The story changes as it is told too, but a lot of people want to believe that the guy who died acted reasonably, so I think it is on Toyota to find the conection between Jim Sikes and the local CHP.

The 'average' drivers are deadly afraid of losing their brakes and steering if they shut off the engine...

Talking to people about it, one after the other tell me this is so. That's what's happening out there.

I agree with Todd. Anyone that can make a cellphone call while driving but refuses to shift into N or turn off the ignition because they are "trying to control the car" should not only probably not be allowed on the road but should probably not be passing their genes along either.

I understand he was told to apply the parking brake. Would you apply the parking brake on a car doing 90mph with a stuck throttle? I wouldn't. As for the ignition, there is nothing to "turn" off. He needed to "press and hold" off the ignition, and it doesn't come to mind any more easily than it slips off the tongue.

If this fellow didn't know how to turn his engine off, what was he going to do when he got where he was driving to and parked- leave it idling until he left there or it ran out of fuel?

Here in Brazil now Fiat faces a justice mandated recall on all the rear wheel hubs for 67k Fiat Stilos. Some 37 reported cases of lost wheels and 13 deaths.

They just say the wheels got lose from the crash, not the way around.

My understanding is the engine-off button is instant when stationary but requires a 3 second press if the vehicle is moving. (Lexus fatal crash)

The 911 call was made by a rear seat passenger - RIP.

Either he never applied the parking brake when parked, or he did so after shutting down the engine with the Start/Stop button so he might have never known that the parking brake shuts off the motor. Another possibility is that when the vehicles are in motion the parking brake requires 3 seconds activation before engaging, but works instantly when stopped. Just like the Start/Stop button.

A Prius does 94 MPH !!

Prius Bluetooth's phones, so he may have been able to make the call hands free from beginning to end.

I see now they are attacking the prof who demonstrated the (admittedly not fully convincing) demo with the electrical part of the the pedal.

His point was that you could do very strange things to the electrical side and yet not log a fault code. T ignored that and rattled on about irrelevancies. There doesn't seem much point in running two circuits if you just ignore it when they disagree. I really find it strange that they've gone into attack mode on this, and the repeated defence of the software and electronics has me very interested. two words that spring to mind are smokescreen and bluster, neither of which appear in any PR manual.

Of course they are fighting with one arm tied behind their backs, they can't point out the bleeding obvious, that most of these SUAs are caused by mats, incompetent drivers or liars. If we narrowed it down to the real puzzling events like Ray's and the New Jersey one then there are far fewer, and they also become much harder to investigate or explain, tho it has to be said in both those cases the service guys didn't seem to want to take it any further.

They've gone into attack mode because they know they're being victimized for the UAW. If there is something fundamentally wrong with their throttle that the ambulance chaser's liar demonstrated, then it is something that is standard for the industry. They've shown that Ford's and BMW's throttles will also produce an open throttle when the wires are cut and a 100 ohm resistor is spliced accross the throttle circuit with a toggle switch to allow the magician to call up the trick. Their point would have been well made had the CHP not staged the little runaway Prius trick the next day, which was no coincidence. Frankly, Toyota is ****ed. Hopefully, most of their customers and employees were Obama voters so that they aren't innocent victims, but I'm not entirely confident. Many of them earn their paychecks, and that is the greatest sin under the current administration.

Like a lot of people, you are way missing the point of the prof's demonstration. He simply showed that the manufacturer's claim is not true -- the ECM can indeed be fooled into commanding the throttle open and it will not recognize the anomaly or trigger a DTC. Everybody in the biz who knows anything about engine controls knows this -- it's not earthshaking at all. The surprising thing is that the company would make such a claim.

It should be too obvious to state that the exact path of malfunction created by the prof -- skinning three wires and placing a resistance between two -- is not going to happen in the field. The point is there any number of real mechanisms that can produce exactly the same failure because, contrary to the company's claims, the ECM's design was not protected against it.

And right there, I believe, is the company's core failure: in assuming that the explanation for all these cases was "floor mat" and not pursuing the complaints. As you allude, the company had plenty of opportunities to get hold of the subject cars and run the problem to ground. Instead, they stonewalled the cases, pissing off some number of customers and eventually generating this PR disaster.

If that is what the dealership personnel told your sister, they were telling her a blatant lie. The ECM will not record an event unless it recognizes a failure (or is externally triggered to do so at the time). So there would be no record from the time of the incident unless the ECM had in fact recognized a failure. But the dealer says there was no recorded failure -- which means there could be no recording of it.

I wonder how "incriminating" these documents are. Or if they reflect normal corporate procedures.

If he'd wanted to make his point then he should have used one of "any number of real mechanisms that can produce exactly the same failure" rather than doing something that wouldn't happen in the field and therefore has nothing to do with refuting Toyota's claim. That wasn't fooling the ECM. That was knowing what signal represents a floored gas pedal and replicating it in a way that could only cause SUA in the same manner that bolt cutters can cause a brake failure.

http://jalopnik.com/5491101/did-bankrupt-r...ed-acceleration

Jim Sikes may have staged his Prius thrill ride because he is bankrupt, $700K in debt, and 5 months behind on his Prius payments. Looks like Toyota was too big of a target for him.

You are still way missing the point. If the ECM can be gamed to drive the thottle open without even recognizing that it has done so, then it has no certain protection from any malfunction that drives the throttle open -- including a false command generated by the ECM itself, which is the very problem independent experts have suspected all along. The company's defense, that any false inputs or outputs will be recognized by the ECM and trigger a fault code, has been proven false.

There was no false input. The crook duplicated the signal that the pedal would have sent had it been floored with a resistor. Perhaps the problem is that Toyota owners have sharp pointy shoes that strip wires running to the gas pedal and they use shoe laces made out of strings of 100 ohm resistors. If so, then this guy may be on to something. Color me dubious.

Todd, there's no question whatever about any floor mats or foot on two pedals at once with my dad's car...

It was a pure and simple case of the car running away without the driver doing anything. Three times... at least.