QUOTE (Raincoat @ Apr 4 2010, 13:39)
FP dont count as RB never show their hand on FP. McLaren were still poor in comparsion to RB in the slower Sector. Sepang s1 and s2 with the 2 long straights flattered the MP4-25. Till we see the MP4-25 match or be close to RB in the slow corners then its purely speculation. Lets see what happens in China
The fastest RB was 0.1 sec faster than the fastest Mclaren in the slow sector. Now compare that to >0.7 in Bahrain.
OK, let's see what China brings.
QUOTE (ButtonJ @ Apr 4 2010, 13:29)
Is it just me or did it look like the car didn't look that quick down the straights todays, maybe put more downforce on.
it was compromised because of too much wing....
Raincoat
Apr 4 2010, 12:44
QUOTE (femi @ Apr 4 2010, 12:32)
I think we can safely ignore the Q times; I agree with you about the effect of the weather clouding things up a bit. That was why I refered to the FP times during which Weber had a real go (I know some will say prove it). I fail to detect any state of euphoria in my comment though.
I completely agree with the bolded sentence in your comment. I was looking at the trend. It didn't matter to me much even if the team won in Aussie, I had always been waiting for the Sepang race and from the evidence of that barring the skewed quallys, Mclaren on reacting strongly but let's wait for China and hoping for a dry weekend.
I was not refering to you when I talked about the state of being in euphoria over beating Ferrari. I was speaking generally as I detect many think we have made great progress because we seem to have had the measure of Ferrari in the last 2 races. Fingers crossed for China. I hate it when we have to wait 2 weeks for the next race.
moorsey
Apr 4 2010, 13:16
I think the end of the season my be very interesting with the additional races taking their toll on some of the less reliable engines and gearboxes. The championship could all hinge on the last couple of races purely for mechanical reasons.
dhill39
Apr 4 2010, 13:18
I can't wait for China now,I am hopeful the team brings a few more updates,and the car will get a little closer to the Redbulls.Lewis has been very quick in china in the past,so he will make up the difference.
I still feel we are behind Alonso's Ferrari and Redbull.
Redbull really didn't even try today, it was very easy 1-2.
We did seem closer to them today but I think it is just track specific, both Ferrari and Redbull commented they struggled to dial the car in since the weekend started - while we've had problem free sessions.
ButtonJ
Apr 4 2010, 14:01
QUOTE (dhill39 @ Apr 4 2010, 13:18)
I can't wait for China now,I am hopeful the team brings a few more updates,and the car will get a little closer to the Redbulls.Lewis has been very quick in china in the past,so he will make up the difference.
Lewis is quick around China True but Jenson will go well there too. AND we should have a ride height adjustment system so Qualifying should be improved. knowing our luck Mclaren will come with the system and it will be declared illegal.
I don't think McLaren will get much closer to Red Bull.
If Red Bull keeps up the reliability and Webber keeps his car ontrack, I see them scoring a lot of 1-2s the rest of the year.
If anything, Ferrari is falling back, which make McLaren look good.
Anomnader
Apr 4 2010, 14:05
QUOTE (Lights @ Apr 4 2010, 15:03)
I don't think McLaren will get much closer to Red Bull.
If Red Bull keeps up the reliability and Webber keeps his car ontrack, I see them scoring a lot of 1-2s the rest of the year.
If anything, Ferrari is falling back, which make McLaren look good.
If Ferrari is falling back then McLaren must be getting better.
I don't have much faith in that Redbull will be developing better, we will finish the season on level terms or faster then redbull, the wdc or wcc just depends on how fast we can get there.
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 16:05)
If Ferrari is falling back then McLaren must be getting better.
I don't have much faith in that Redbull will be developing better, we will finish the season on level terms or faster then redbull, the wdc or wcc just depends on how fast we can get there.
Ofcourse, every team is getting better. I just think Ferrari improved less in the past month compared to Red Bull and McLaren.
I really hope McLaren can out-develop Red Bull.
Oblivion
Apr 4 2010, 14:09
It was 1-2 because there was no opposition. That's the case.
The car truly needs better mechanical grip. Lack of mechanical grip is the main reason why Hamilton couldn't get close to Sutil on the exits of corners. He had to rely on his top speed to pass him... and since Sutil was as fast as LH... well, he simply wasn't able to close the gap.
McLaren seems great under braking as we saw LH closing in on rivals quite easily at the last hairpin and at Turn 1.... but losing immediately this gain on the exit.
QUOTE (mkay @ Apr 4 2010, 16:23)
The car truly needs better mechanical grip. Lack of mechanical grip is the main reason why Hamilton couldn't get close to Sutil on the exits of corners. He had to rely on his top speed to pass him... and since Sutil was as fast as LH... well, he simply wasn't able to close the gap.
McLaren seems great under braking as we saw LH closing in on rivals quite easily at the last hairpin and at Turn 1.... but losing immediately this gain on the exit.
Sorry but that's just how it looks while one car is following another car.
Anomnader
Apr 4 2010, 14:29
Yep, if the FI was as fast as the McLaren on the striaghts and had better mechanical grip in slow corners wouldn't they be challenging the Redbulls?
QUOTE (Lights @ Apr 4 2010, 10:25)
Sorry but that's just how it looks while one car is following another car.
No. Look at Massa on Button
Many cars were easily following the McLaren after hairpins... look at Hamilton's passes. LH's slow exits always allowed the other car to catch him down the straight (Kobayashi, Petrov, etc.)
Even LH said that Sutil's exits were clean... I guess I'll trust his word over some unknown armchair specialist...
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 10:29)
Yep, if the FI was as fast as the McLaren on the striaghts and had better mechanical grip in slow corners wouldn't they be challenging the Redbulls?
No, they were losing a lot in faster corners (S2). They had, I think, a low DF setting which enabled him to defend his position but made him slower overall.
QUOTE (mkay @ Apr 4 2010, 16:34)
No. Look at Massa on Button
Many cars were easily following the McLaren after hairpins... look at Hamilton's passes. LH's slow exits always allowed the other car to catch him down the straight (Kobayashi, Petrov, etc.)
Even LH said that Sutil's exits were clean... I guess I'll trust his word over some unknown armchair specialist...
Yes. I saw Massa on Button. Same as Alonso, actually. Under braking, they were in Button's gearbox, and at the exit they lost a couple of car lengths again and were unable to overtake. Nothing surprising, it's normal in racing.
You can't compare it with drivers re-attacking Lewis, as in those situations it happened right after an overtake, where Lewis couldn't drive the ideal line because he had to overtake.
Anomnader
Apr 4 2010, 14:42
Should Lewis have tried a late braking move?
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 15:42)
Should Lewis have tried a late braking move?
I thought this, too..
It is something he does really well, but didn't go for it.
J
maccaFTW
Apr 4 2010, 14:51
I think Hamilton would have had a much better result if McLaren had pitted him earlier than they did. Sutil being able to run some laps on fresh tires made the difference. He would have at least finished ahead of Sutil, and he may have gotten Kubica, as well, if McLaren had pitted him earlier.
I think the McLaren in Hamilton's hands is at least on level of the Ferrari in Alonso's hands and competitive with the Red Bulls. In race pace, he might have an advantage. If he could just get a really good qualifying session down and have a race of clean strategy, I think he can pull out a victory at this stage.
hunnylander
Apr 4 2010, 14:52
I think the MP4-25 will be as strong in Shanghai as it was in Sepang. The outright pace was there to fight for the win without the qualifying mistake.
Lewis is a master of the Shanghai circuit, he can win there with this car on merit.
Isn't there some upgrade for china?
QUOTE (Lights @ Apr 4 2010, 15:03)
I don't think McLaren will get much closer to Red Bull.
If Red Bull keeps up the reliability and Webber keeps his car ontrack, I see them scoring a lot of 1-2s the rest of the year.
If anything, Ferrari is falling back, which make McLaren look good.
Agreed
QUOTE (nawz @ Apr 4 2010, 10:53)
Isn't there some upgrade for china?
I suppose they'll bring their "ride height adjuster" in China... among many other things.
mclarenproject4
Apr 4 2010, 15:22
We haven't won a constructor's title for 12 long years & that is a disgrace.
OwenC93
Apr 4 2010, 15:35
I think redbull are reaching the end of their car performance. They have about another 20% to extract but since the McLaren is so new then we should have alot more
Henrytheeigth
Apr 4 2010, 15:38
QUOTE (mclarenproject4 @ Apr 5 2010, 01:22)
We haven't won a constructor's title for 12 long years & that is a disgrace.
Yea I know, it's sad, up there with Ferrari not winning at Monaco since 2001, despite having the best car in 2002 and 2004...
Although I'd be happy if you was right I'd say this is wishful thinking. McLaren, Ferrari, Red Bull and every team else will develop further. The only question is who will be developing faster and who will find the biggest steps to take. After last year I am somewhat optimistic that this would be McLaren.
QUOTE (OwenC93 @ Apr 4 2010, 16:35)
I think redbull are reaching the end of their car performance. They have about another 20% to extract but since the McLaren is so new then we should have alot more
Until they introduced their own f-duct system.
But yes Mclaren have more ground to work on
mclarensmps
Apr 4 2010, 16:07
QUOTE (OwenC93 @ Apr 4 2010, 11:35)
I think redbull are reaching the end of their car performance. They have about another 20% to extract but since the McLaren is so new then we should have alot more
I disagree. I don't know where you got your numbers from, but there is still a lot that they can do with their car.
Seanspeed
Apr 4 2010, 16:09
QUOTE (OwenC93 @ Apr 4 2010, 11:35)
I think redbull are reaching the end of their car performance. They have about another 20% to extract but since the McLaren is so new then we should have alot more
Wishful thinking, I think.
There's no way to know how much potential each car has left unlocked. Trying to pull out actual numbers(what does 20% even mean anyways?) is.....I dunno. Silly, I guess.
OwenC93
Apr 4 2010, 16:12
QUOTE (Seanspeed @ Apr 4 2010, 17:09)
Wishful thinking, I think.
There's no way to know how much potential each car has left unlocked. Trying to pull out actual numbers(what does 20% even mean anyways?) is.....I dunno. Silly, I guess.
Yeah I was going to go on to say McLaren has 40% to extract meaning we should have twice as much development speed to come. But I kinda gave up halfway through.
mclarensmps
Apr 4 2010, 16:14
Well, development speed != development potential. They are two different things!
hunnylander
Apr 4 2010, 16:18
QUOTE (nawz @ Apr 4 2010, 17:46)
Until they introduced their own f-duct system.
But yes Mclaren have more ground to work on
Q. It seems that Sauber, Force India and Red Bull have developed something similar to the f-duct system. How does McLaren feel about other teams copying something that you have devoted quite a lot of time innovating?
Phil Prew - McLaren's principal race engineer: Now we've led the way with the innovation, I think it is a system that is possible to copy and reasonably straightforward. The press have covered it very thoroughly, and it is a system that they can well adopt. Hopefully they don't see quite as much laptime performance we believe we get from it. It was inevitable, but hopefully we'll be able to continue developing it and keep exploiting it one step ahead of the rest.
Q. When did you first come up with the concept?
PP: We're constantly looking at new ideas, and this is one that was developed for the MP4/25 and that's what we see here, through the winter test programme which was four weeks.
A fantastic drive by LH
A decent drive from Button - he helped to blow up Nando's Ferrari engine by forcing him to use max revs
But LH only got 8 points when he should have got between 15 and 25 if it weren't for the idotic decisions made in qualy
I hope it doesn't rain in qualy for China - if it does, expect yet more stupid decisions by the team
As someone posted earlier, this year's championship is looking like it will be decided by the team making the least mistakes... and not by fastastic driving like we saw from LH today and last week in Australia
De Jokke
Apr 4 2010, 16:25
Nice race from hami: 20th to 12th in first lap. What a drive!
Mclaren though, should have called him in earlier, but in fact, it was already doomed come saturday (qwf). We lost a possible victory here
I have a feeling that we haven't capitalised enough from the mistakes of others in the past few races....
Button was awful: plain dumb to switch that early on new tyres and then he just lets massa past!!! If he just took the inside line, massa would never have gotten past, and would be fighting with nando, while button secured 7th behind hami, but what's done is done...
This circuit suited us and still we didn't manage to take full profit of it (due to sat qwf), rbr is reliable now and vettel is already ahead of hamilton in the standings. We CLEARLY need development on that 25 ASAP!!! I hope china will be hamilton's race but let's wait and see.
golfball
Apr 4 2010, 17:40
QUOTE (ZooL @ Apr 2 2010, 23:52)
Thats probably why Lacey got moved on.
I think it was Anderson that said when he seen the car he knew their front was doing the wrong thing.
What it goes to show that is talent wise McLaren is certainly lacking on and not as special as we think, theres alot of hype.
Neither are their tools extraordinary. It's all very over rated, including their tyre simulator.
Ferrari with their 'ancient' tools seem so much better. We bask in our advanced tools. But its the people that use them that count, and in that department Ferrari have been better than us for a decade now.
Just keeping it real.
Neither Lacey nor Iley are/were directly involved with the car design, the head of aero job at most F1 teams is about running the department, creating the right tools for the job - the chief aero looks after the car design. I understand that's held by the same guy who's done it for the past few years.
If you're counting on that reshuffle to change the way the car's designed significantly, you're looking in the wrong place......
I hope we have the ride-height adjustment for china and maybe some downforce mods we getting closer!
watch out redbull, ferrari we coming to get you!!! ..... were coming....coming
GRRRRRR!!!!
Anomnader
Apr 4 2010, 17:56
So.. Who cringed when Lewis exited the pits next to Button.
Amazing how Button got back up there.
So again did McLaren race control chose the wrong strategy for Lewis, should he have being brought in earlier?
Simon Says
Apr 4 2010, 17:58
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 18:56)
So.. Who cringed when Lewis exited the pits next to Button.
Amazing how Button got back up there.
Lewis was fighting alot of cars and overtaking them so he losts alot of time. Jenson however was driving in clear air so he could do his normal race pace.
Lewis was sometimes 1-2 seconds quicker than the guys he overtook, so that gives an idea how much time he lost when he was following a car he was about to overtake
Simon Says
Apr 4 2010, 18:00
I think Mclaren might be in a very good position if Ferrari proofs to be unreliable as Red Bull is. Maybe the Mclaren isn't that bad, especially when they resolve their qualifing problems
trogggy
Apr 4 2010, 18:36
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 17:56)
So.. Who cringed when Lewis exited the pits next to Button.
Amazing how Button got back up there.
So again did McLaren race control chose the wrong strategy for Lewis, should he have being brought in earlier?
I think Lewis's strategy made a lot of sense today. He stayed out on his hard tyres as long as possible without being passed by Button after pitting (in fact he cut it a lap too fine to be safe, I think his pitstop was the quickest of the year so far or he would have come out behind JB). Coming in earlier would still have left him between Button and Sutil, albeit nearer to Sutil, but by staying out he had the opportunity to keep going further (than he did) and then go straight to wet tyres if the weather looked like changing.
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 13:56)
So.. Who cringed when Lewis exited the pits next to Button.
Amazing how Button got back up there.
So again did McLaren race control chose the wrong strategy for Lewis, should he have being brought in earlier?
The strategy worked because we got good results. But I personally would have brought him in earlier. He nearly lost out by coming out behind JB
327 pages ...
You know what this means: this thread is already as long as the Silver Donkey thread! Without being locked! Yes!
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Apr 4 2010, 19:56)
So.. Who cringed when Lewis exited the pits next to Button.
Amazing how Button got back up there.
So again did McLaren race control chose the wrong strategy for Lewis, should he have being brought in earlier?
Well how was it 'wrong' for Lewis?
Yes he exited the pits next to Button, but as he had fresh tyres then, he was easily able to run away with multiple seconds a lap.
The strategies just crossed each other there. Didn't make Lewis' strategy worse.
QUOTE (trogggy @ Apr 4 2010, 18:36)
I think Lewis's strategy made a lot of sense today. He stayed out on his hard tyres as long as possible without being passed by Button after pitting (in fact he cut it a lap too fine to be safe, I think his pitstop was the quickest of the year so far or he would have come out behind JB). Coming in earlier would still have left him between Button and Sutil, albeit nearer to Sutil, but by staying out he had the opportunity to keep going further (than he did) and then go straight to wet tyres if the weather looked like changing.
Yep, nothing "wrong" with the strategy. It's easy to say what would have been the perfect strategy after the race, but nobody can determine that at the start.
If rain had come at the optimal time for Lewis (just after the RB cars pitted and he was 2nd) then he could have had a chance to win the race. Given that the rain had been coming about that time every day in the last week, it could have been the perfect strategy if the weather hadn't been so capricious.
Anyway, of the top 4, the MP4-25 has been the most reliable and also seems to be improving faster than the others, though we couldn't really see that during the race or qualifying. Hopefully qualifying will be dry in China so we can get a good idea of how things are changing there.
QUOTE (CPR @ Apr 4 2010, 20:28)
Yep, nothing "wrong" with the strategy. It's easy to say what would have been the perfect strategy after the race, but nobody can determine that at the start.
If rain had come at the optimal time for Lewis (just after the RB cars pitted and he was 2nd) then he could have had a chance to win the race. Given that the rain had been coming about that time every day in the last week, it could have been the perfect strategy if the weather hadn't been so capricious.
Anyway, of the top 4, the MP4-25 has been the most reliable and also seems to be improving faster than the others, though we couldn't really see that during the race or qualifying. Hopefully qualifying will be dry in China so we can get a good idea of how things are changing there.
Yep. Very, very encouraging. Great effort by both team and drivers. Lewis in his overtaking, Button in his defensive moves!
Bottom line is that the drivers championship has tightened up; so everything to play for and I think we head to China in pretty good shape.
Bring it on!
Pampalini
Apr 4 2010, 20:33
Encouraging- yes. Still I just hope in the next few races we will not be behind a Renault or Sutil's FI after the first corner. Somehow it seems to be easier to overtake a Ferrari than a Renault in a McLaren.
Overall, I just don't think McLaren is there yet. They're around the top, but they're not it. They still lack some pace.
I think both drivers have driven extremely well to score those 66 points for McLaren so far. They've practically done nothing 'wrong'.
From here on, it's obvious McLaren has to step it up. Red Bull seem to have lost their reliability issues, and I'm sure Alonso will be a bigger threat again if he actually has a working clutch in his car and isn't stuck behind Massa all race.
So far this season we've not seen a McLaren in the top-3 of qualifying. They really need that in the upcoming races.
QUOTE (Pampalini @ Apr 4 2010, 20:33)
Encouraging- yes. Still I just hope in the next few races we will not be behind a Renault or Sutil's FI after the first corner. Somehow it seems to be easier to overtake a Ferrari than a Renault in a McLaren.
Agree. You could see the difference with the RB when Mark left the pit and was closing so easily into Lewis on P2 (before his pitstop). I thought Ferrari was much better than McLaren, but I am not sure how good they are?
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