2008 Raikkonen was running more downforce than Massa, and we all know who was quicker.

It's more than how much downforce is run, Raikkonen usually has a quicker all-round set up in fast corners than Massa.

One pic for you, home of McLaren


high res

Yeah, thats what they tried to do, be quicker in S2 but they still couldn't match RBR / Toyota there and were alot slower in S1 + S3 than the cars that used less DF.

And that just goes to show how the car wasn't quick, they didn't mess up at all, the car was just clearly off the pace.

We know the car was off the pace, but other things contributed to that and made it look worse. what are you trying to achieve?

Like what?

Nothing.

They just tried explaining it to you. I dont like having to read through pages of garbage cos people can't get over something and go post for post with eachother about something that doesn't belong in here. Just go start a 'what was wrong with the 24' thread or something. It doesn't matter so let it go.

You contributed to all those "pages of garbage" you know.

I'm really not getting your point here. I originally replied to Bogi's comment on the 24 being a "rocket ship" which it clearly wasn't, and it all branched off from there. And seeing as this is the official McLaren thread, I don't think a new thread is necessary.

Guys, looking at the engine side: are we at a disadvantage compared to RBR: the merc does have more power but uses more fuel. And the power difference isn't as big as the fuel consumption difference...
I'm sure (and I surely hope) merc has improved its fuel consumption even further but do you think RBR has an advantage compared to mclaren?

not at all, merc have the best engine in formula 1 everybody knows that. and now the rules have changed and fuel consumption is the aim of the game mercs new engine will have improved in that area, whether or not its enough to be on par with the renault is yet to be seen but i think it will be pretty bloody close.

I know merc is supposed and will probably be professional and all... but if mclaren n merc are fighting for the title down to the wire, I wont be so comfortable knowing they are the ones supplying us with engines to race them.

I guess we'll just have to royally kick ass anyways

Seeing as how the engines are the same as they were since 2006, I don't remember the Mercedes having the most power back then?

They aren't the same.

I'm sure they are.

you had no qualms last year about the engines supplied to Force India, not to speak of Brawn. Now all at once you question the integrity of Merc. Nice. and honorable.

We were never a direct contender with Brawn or Force India for the championship....usually an engine manufacturer team supplies a team they dont think would be a threat.

History buffs, is there any time when a team supplying another with an engine have been direct rivals for the championship at the end of the season.... e.g. in the 2008 championship with Lewis and Massa, Lewis' team was getting engines from Ferrari, something like that

Impossible to make the whole batch to exactly same. Mercedes-Benz will serve at least 30 engines for its own team and the other two teams (2 for the winter testing, 8 for the season). Engines are measured on the dyno, they will know the performance and fuel consumption of all the 30. There will be the finest cream stuff, the mediocre and the worst ones.

In the past years Mercedes had zero engine failure, Force India had zero engine failure, Brawn had zero engine failure, McLaren had zero engine failure. I can predict surely, there will be big buzz about it, if McLaren will have an engine failure if the works team won't have that in the whole season.

Yep.I agree.Even back in the all dominant universal Cosworth days,some engines were more equal than others.

No worries, the guy making the allocations will probably be a raging Hammy fan in Northampton

She's a beaut that's for sure!

When visiting MTC you're given instructions (at the main gate) by surly looking chaps wearing ultra-cool black McLaren jackets lined with the Vodafone red (that they don't sell on the website, i've checked as they're much cooler than the silver one I have!) then take a long drive up to one of serveral car parks - after being slightly impressed by all the Mercs and Smart Cars (all bloody brand new!) you make your way by lift underground into the weirdest looking coridoor i've ever walked, long as hell, white as hell and unbelievably clean - very odd feeling walking down this seemingly never-ending featureless coridoor till you get to the piston-shaped lift at the end and make your way up.

You get out of this stunning piece of engineering they call a lift after the weird "walking-into-the-future" type coridoor and you're faced with nothing but glass, that lake behind it then you spot the cars gleaming in the lobby right on front of you - if you don't shoot your load there and then (the first time you visit) you're not a racing fan and shouldn't be where you are that very moment!

When they say McLaren drive for perfection they are NOT kidding!

I have to add, the difference between the cream stuff and the 'worst' stuff must be small, cannot be more than 5 or 10 bhp. Too weak and too thristy engines must be disassembled and fixed, and it must be rare because of the highly sophisticated manufacturing and controlling processes. But in Formula 1 you never know what difference 5 bhp or a couple of litres fuel can make, sometimes it's the difference between win or losing. But engines can't be fully identical despite the best intentions and interests. These very expensive engines can't be junked just because having e.g. a 5 bhp deficit. I'm sure there is a minimum limit, there is a power range, and we can suppose there is a very detailed contract between McLaren and Mercedes, so we cannot get too weak/thristy engines, if the building and selecting rules and the contracts aren't breeched intentionally or unintentionally.

The concern expressed by some here would be relevant if Merc produces different versions of engines which I don't think is the case and even if that were to be the case, Mclaren would not be allocated the inferior set - it is reasonable to assume that would expressed in a binding contract. The engine production process would not be such that a particular batch would be for Merc team and another for the others which means the engine production team would have no clue which team would be receiving which engines. Besides, the quality control these days will reveal any weakness or defect in any engine before it is raced.

I don't have any inkling that suggests that Mercedes are devious which I cannot say for Ferrari for example.

And Barrichello's final laps in Spa 2009?

I thought that was an oil leak more than an engine problem that had to be replaced. I can't remember though.

oil leak for sure, there was no engine change or penalty, for the following race in Monza, which he went on to win. They did have there doubts about it holding out though, or was that the gearbox, cant remember

ignore the obvious, funny how everybody in F1 agrees that the merc engine by far was the best one last year, but a forum poster keeps denying,

The engines are different on the outside, where they interface with the tub and the gearbox, as the teams have different engine mounts and gearboxes.
The internal parts are identical of course.

Silly discussion anyway. Why Mercedes would sabotage themselves!?

Engines have been improved since 2006, even with the new regulations. Mercedes made any tiny improvement they could make, and have made the engine one of, if not the, most reliable and powerful on the grid. Contrast to Renault, who stopped development, and in the end had to be allowed by the other teams to "equalise", at the beginning of 09 I think it was.

With regards to the competitive situation with Merc, I doubt they delivered substandard units to Brawn last year, so I don't see them doing it to McLaren this year. If the title is down to the wire between Schumacher and Hamilton/Button though, I might be a tad worried.

thats all I'm saying

There was no engine change, neither DNF for Barrichello. That engine was used later.

I'm sure any works team would keep the engines that come off the test dyno with the better readings for their cars.

One question I do have, though, is that if I remember correctly McLaren were enthusing a coupla years ago about something called 'laptime-in-a-can', which was a lubricant provided by Mobil that gave them a quantifiable laptime improvement over their previous oil. Now with Mercedes tied to Petronas, surely they wouldn't benefit from such a product and might even be at a slight disadvantage?

edit to add this link

http://www.mclaren.co.uk/latestnews/mclare...php?article=164

But McLaren are still sponsored by Mobil, so I presume they will continue to use them.

That's what I meant - with Petronas oils the engine in the works team might perform at a lower level than the McLaren one with the Mobil-1 lubricant. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


edit; no I didn't make that clear at all, did I....

What I said are not based on my opinion or my speculation, I based it on quotes of Mercedes, Norbert Haug and co. There was a couple sentences in the recent years about it, don't ask me for links, I have no clue, I read a lot of articles in several different languages. Engines can't be fully identical, that's a fact! You can be sure, the cream stuff is for Mercedes GP, not McLaren!

BUT, even the 'worst' stuff is enough to win the championships, if the car is good and the driver is exeptionally good.

It's not unlikely that Mercedes GP will continue to use Mobil as lubricant. It will just not be advertised.

I'm sure all this is covered in the breakup agreements, we must remember that McLaren let Mercedes leave pretty easy and with little demands beyond free engines till the end of the term. I think if anything untoward was thought it would have all being discussed and clauses put in place. I'm sure McLaren fully protected themselves or are aware of any potential difficulties.

Does Brixworth control intakes, exhausts & engine maps?

I think Mobil 1 and Petronas are near equal in their high performance F1 stuff. Even if Mobil 1 is somehow better, at Mercedes GP the chassis the engine and the fuels and lubricants are more in symbiosis regarding development, such as fuel consumption reduction via airbox development. Works teams have advantages. Some of us would like to believe McLaren is still a works team. I think no, now there is only one true works team for Mercedes, and that is the German one. But I have know problem with that.

yes they are
But how come Mercs became better....simple, RPM limit helped them alot
the 19,000 RPM was help full, but the 18,000 RPM really made them more drivable
as in such low rpm all engines had similar Power , but the engines with best driveability has advantage.....thats why Merc are the engines to have for this season

just in this week Adrian Newey did an interview where he said,

"The Mercedes engine enjoyed a good advantage over the rest of the field last year. The lap time difference was significant – several tenths of a second. And when you have to find that kind of performance from the chassis, that’s quite a big ask. But in the end Brawn and McLaren blocked us from having the Mercedes engine."

Adrian Newey

what's interesting though, there was an article on f1total.com sometime ago, that said something about, the difference between the engines, was a lot bigger when the HP was measseaured on the wheels. The article indicated that, mclarens developed drivetrain+gearbox didnt eat as many of the HP's as the other teams solutions did. Thats why force india was so strong.

Interesting. Do we know where the Merc gearbox is coming from? Made their own during last year or using the Honda one?

Do you think he is exaggerting just a little bit,

I'm sure Heikki's engine failed in Fuji 2008



I don't need your hostility.



Because I am sure that Ferrari had the most powerful engine in 2007 and 2008 judging by how quick the STR team were in Valencia while the RBR team was not as fast.

This article: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80927 made me think about who Mika Häkkinen is contracted to as an ambassador/PR-man, McLaren or Mercedes? It would be cool to see him and Michael together in commercials.

Agreed. Another point I was trying to make was that Mercedes would not deliberately deliver inferior engines to Mclaren and as long as they are on the same engine versions, I don't see any issues.
When Ferrari was supplying other teams, they never gave out the same engine versions they ran in their car - IIRC.

The integrity of Mercedes in this respect must be very high otherwise why would RB want their engine seeing that they would be going head-to-head with the then works team; Mclaren?

About Ferrari,
The problem was Ferrari used to sell the engines only and not all the drivetrain system, including the gearbox and ECU.
About beying one spec lower, that's because engine development was free and in a season Ferrari had several developments [specs].
But I agree, Ferrari customers always complained about the price and the supporting services about their reliable engines.

About Mercedes,
BrawnGP used their Honda gearbox [said to be the best] coupled with the Mercedes.
FI I don't know who makes their gerabox.

All teams use different - handmade - exhaust systems.
Also different sidepods and radiators.

Force India improved due to aerodynamic package revision good for high speed circuits, not because of Mercedes impro.

I think Mclaren makes FI gearboxes and other things of that nature

I thought they allocate all engines at the start of the season?

McLaren and other Brit F1 teams working on tech for British MOD military contracts. Lets hope it is a two way relationship that benefits the MP4-25 in particular.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/M...s=searchresults