The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > McLaren

Katsumi

Jun 10 2010, 17:54

QUOTE (rodlamas @ Jun 10 2010, 15:08)

Therefore I think Mclaren will be bringing upgrades following their development path. The car started 1+ second slower on pure pace and now is a top car (remember we never got to see what they were up to as the cars were stuck behind the Red Bulls for 40 laps and then started saving fuel). And none of the developments they brought to the car (diffuser, floor, sidepods, podwings, rear/front wings) seems to be based on what was succeessfully tested before on another cars.

The way you stated it i'm starting too wonder if McLaren didnt put LW and JB into 'fuel save mode' too hide their true race pace?

Obi Offiah

Jun 10 2010, 17:57

QUOTE (TheArmchairCritic @ Jun 10 2010, 14:15)

Swing-o-meter in full swing these days, so i think the time is right to temper expectations. Yes the car is good but let's not forget Red Bull should have won 6/7 races(exception China) the team is doing a fantastic job but there is a lot of work to be done let's just keep the momentum going.

Love it or hate it, the swing-o-meter is an integral part of the MP4-25 forum.

f1rules

Jun 10 2010, 18:00

not to ruin peoples hopes but to exspect a new car in silverstone, is a bit to much to hope for i think. But less can do. The 25 is ok as it is. Clearly sec best car

Obi Offiah

Jun 10 2010, 18:05

QUOTE (rodlamas @ Jun 10 2010, 14:41)

If the car is pretty much a new one as Legard's been quoted, it may feature a complete version of the back of the car which might have the exaust feeding the diffuser, although that might not work on Mclaren's huge diffuser. But then I'm completely clueless on that matter.

I do hope McLaren introduce some form of diffuser blowing on the MP4-25 and make it work effectively. Funnily enough, I did post about the possibility of seeing blown diffusers this year, in the MP4-24 thread at the end of the 2009 season. If McLaren do follow this path, I hope for a single exhaust system like the 2000 - 2001 McLaren's, as acoustically it would very much standout from the rest of the pack.

ashnathan

Jun 10 2010, 20:24

How ridiculously awesome did they sound!!!!!

SteveNeo

Jun 10 2010, 20:41

Excellent to see all the support for Mclaren guys keep it up.

This should be a good weekend for us at Canada, the car should suit the track.

SteveNeo

Jun 10 2010, 20:47

QUOTE (f1rules @ Jun 10 2010, 19:00)

not to ruin peoples hopes but to exspect a new car in silverstone, is a bit to much to hope for i think. But less can do. The 25 is ok as it is. Clearly sec best car

A 'New Car' for Silverstone is wrong but do expect a Big Big leap in Performance. If data turns out to be expected in track performance terms then it will be the Red Bulls Chasing the MP4-25 but we can only hope.

Obi Offiah

Jun 10 2010, 20:54

QUOTE (kids like ash @ Jun 10 2010, 21:24)

How ridiculously awesome did they sound!!!!!

Really incredible, it was like they were another octav in pitch above the rest.

Obi Offiah

Jun 10 2010, 20:57

QUOTE (SteveNeo @ Jun 10 2010, 21:47)

A 'New Car' for Silverstone is the wrong words used by Johnathon but do expect a Big Big leap in Performance. If data turns out to be expected in track performance terms then it will be the Red Bulls Chasing the MP4-25 but we can only hope.

I really hope so SteveNeo, Fingers, toes and other parts of the anatomy crossed

. The swing-o-meter will be off the wall

.

Owen

Jun 10 2010, 20:59

QUOTE (SteveNeo @ Jun 10 2010, 21:41)

Excellent to see all the support for Mclaren guys keep it up.

This should be a good weekend for us at Canada, the car should suit the track.

We've got a good crew here and (every now and again) some real insight. Hopefully we do the team justice. The MP4-25 thread is legendary (if you can cope with the mood swings!) Go McLaren!

Kimiraikkonen

Jun 10 2010, 22:03

QUOTE (SteveNeo @ Jun 10 2010, 22:41)

Excellent to see all the support for Mclaren guys keep it up.

This should be a good weekend for us at Canada, the car should suit the track.

Welcome to home of "the 25".

Regards mate

Katsumi

Jun 10 2010, 22:45

QUOTE (Obi Offiah @ Jun 10 2010, 18:05)

I do hope McLaren introduce some form of diffuser blowing on the MP4-25 and make it work effectively. Funnily enough, I did post about the possibility of seeing blown diffusers this year, in the MP4-24 thread at the end of the 2009 season. If McLaren do follow this path, I hope for a single exhaust system like the 2000 - 2001 McLaren's, as acoustically it would very much standout from the rest of the pack.

And didnt we all just love the sound from that MP4

zombie1965

Jun 11 2010, 00:35

Crazy theory incoming

Ok ill admit i do tend to over think things at 1 am but here goes...

from what I have been reading suplying the difuser with a good flow of air stops it stalling which, in turn helps under body downforce. Feeding the rearwing air through a slot reduces downforce which in turn leads to less drag and a higher top speed in the straits.

I am asuming that when the F duct is activated some kind of presure change directs air from the air box above the drivers head to the rear wing, as the air from the small snorkle on the tub would be of to small and week flow to stall a wing.

What if the MTC boys have found a way that when the duct is activated (straits) airflow is sent to the slot in the wing as usual but once deactivated (twisties) airflow is sent down to feed the difuser resulting in an even more dramatic difference between the two states, and a very efficient design. surly, in theory, this would be even more usefull than the rbr exhaust gas techneque as not only woud in normal state, have a better diffusor but also be able to stall both it and the rear wing on straits

Just a mind wonder

OwenC93

Jun 11 2010, 00:57

That makes sense, red-bulls f-duct works by squirting air at a big duct which then changes the air flow to the upper deck rather than the lower. See here. I guess it could work so the bottom tube goes to the diffusor instead.

However that air would be pretty useless since it's slower than just having normal air flow, whereas an exhaust is much faster I presume.

Lazarus II

Jun 11 2010, 01:12

QUOTE (SteveNeo @ Jun 10 2010, 15:47)

A 'New Car' for Silverstone is wrong but do expect a Big Big leap in Performance. If data turns out to be expected in track performance terms then it will be the Red Bulls Chasing the MP4-25 but we can only hope.

"engineer" ......your workplace wouldn't be near ATM_Andy would it?

More the merrier

PassWind

Jun 11 2010, 07:15

What do you guys think about the potential lower track temps, how will this effect the car?

wrexter

Jun 11 2010, 07:16

At the press conference yesterday, the drivers were asked what they thought about the late race clash between the two red bull cars which ended vettels race and propelled the mclarens to a 1-2 finish.

(p.s. just a joke)

bauss

Jun 11 2010, 07:41

QUOTE (PassWind @ Jun 11 2010, 08:15)

What do you guys think about the potential lower track temps, how will this effect the car?

might potentially make it harder to warm and use its tires, but we will see... unlike Monaco the track has long straights where they can properly try to warm the tires and Hamilton can do what he does best...

fishtailing

undersquare

Jun 11 2010, 08:08

QUOTE (zombie1965 @ Jun 11 2010, 01:35)

Crazy theory incoming

Ok ill admit i do tend to over think things at 1 am but here goes...

from what I have been reading suplying the difuser with a good flow of air stops it stalling which, in turn helps under body downforce. Feeding the rearwing air through a slot reduces downforce which in turn leads to less drag and a higher top speed in the straits.

I am asuming that when the F duct is activated some kind of presure change directs air from the air box above the drivers head to the rear wing, as the air from the small snorkle on the tub would be of to small and week flow to stall a wing.

What if the MTC boys have found a way that when the duct is activated (straits) airflow is sent to the slot in the wing as usual but once deactivated (twisties) airflow is sent down to feed the difuser resulting in an even more dramatic difference between the two states, and a very efficient design. surly, in theory, this would be even more usefull than the rbr exhaust gas techneque as not only woud in normal state, have a better diffusor but also be able to stall both it and the rear wing on straits

Just a mind wonder

I've always assumed that the wing slits squirt a relatively small volume of air at high pressure, being a very small area of aperture with the job of deflecting the main airstream off the rear surface of the wing. If that's right then I don't think the volume of air would be big enough to make a difference in the diffuser.

They probably do something cunning with it though, sure you're right there. Given the problems other teams seem to have been having getting the airstream to reattach after a stall (at the end of the straight), I wouldn't be surprised if they've arranged for the J-switched flow to help with that. AFAIK if they direct such a flow along the surface it helps a bigger flow to attach (forgotten what that principle's called, it's some guy's name).

OwenC93

Jun 11 2010, 10:20

Here's some new front wing.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32794929@N05/4688808311/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/32794929@N05/4688801869/

tkulla

Jun 11 2010, 10:58

If the track is damp for practice today and the cars are kicking up a bit of spray, the super aero guys like Scarbs might get a good look at what teams are doing with their f-duct systems.

Fortunately for McLaren it seems to be much more difficult than people thought to get it working just right.

CPR

Jun 11 2010, 12:02

QUOTE (PretentiousBread @ Jun 10 2010, 08:59)

Legard tweets:

"New front suspension for both drivers at Renault who're expecting to mix it with Mercedes. Team feel Kubica could be stronger than in Monaco" @legardj 1 hour ago

"McLaren upgrades include new front and rear wings for Canada. For Silverstone, though, Button and Hamilton will have pretty much a new car" @legardj 2 hours ago

Assuming what Legard tweeted is true (haven't seen it picked up anywhere else) and that the car works as expected... that's actually quite a scary statement!

Consider the MP4-24 - McLaren introduced a major upgrade for the German race, which was practically a new car too. But, for several races before they pretty much stopped development on the 'old' version. This time it looks like they've bringing out a 'new' car while still updating the 'old' one! However, that doesn't necessary mean that the development efforts are equivalent - the initial MP4-24 was deeply flawed, meaning that improvements from the 'new' design wouldn't necessarily help the 'old' design. However, the MP4-25 doesn't have that problem, so there is much more scope for joint development. Putting it another way - the changes with the 'pretty much new car' due at Silverstone are probably more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Not to be counting any chickens, but it sounds fun

Owen

Jun 11 2010, 12:04

Anyone know, is this the new wing?
http://twitpic.com/1vk5p9

f1rules

Jun 11 2010, 12:12

I think so, the endplates, looks like theyve removed the wholes in them´, something mclaren actually introduced if i remember correctly and almost all other teams copied. ALso look at the bigger horisontal element on top of the endplate, that has changed for sure so i think its the new one

It seems like mclaren always has the most problems with the design of the frontwing. The last year they experimented a lot but almost always went back to old designs. Last year they had a very complex endplate system but they never got it to work

undersquare

Jun 11 2010, 12:16

QUOTE (CPR @ Jun 11 2010, 13:02)

Assuming what Legard tweeted is true (haven't seen it picked up anywhere else) and that the car works as expected... that's actually quite a scary statement!

Consider the MP4-24 - McLaren introduced a major upgrade for the German race, which was practically a new car too. But, for several races before they pretty much stopped development on the 'old' version. This time it looks like they've bringing out a 'new' car while still updating the 'old' one! However, that doesn't necessary mean that the development efforts are equivalent - the initial MP4-24 was deeply flawed, meaning that improvements from the 'new' design wouldn't necessarily help the 'old' design. However, the MP4-25 doesn't have that problem, so there is much more scope for joint development. Putting it another way - the changes with the 'pretty much new car' due at Silverstone are probably more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Not to be counting any chickens, but it sounds fun

Well SteveNeo sounds well-connected somehow, and says we can expect 'a big leap in performance'. The Leg being wrong, fancy that, about a 'new car' but still there seems at least to be some kind of a stick for him to get the wrong end of

I think something good is coming...

rodlamas

Jun 11 2010, 12:20

QUOTE (CPR @ Jun 11 2010, 09:02)

Assuming what Legard tweeted is true (haven't seen it picked up anywhere else) and that the car works as expected... that's actually quite a scary statement!

Consider the MP4-24 - McLaren introduced a major upgrade for the German race, which was practically a new car too. But, for several races before they pretty much stopped development on the 'old' version. This time it looks like they've bringing out a 'new' car while still updating the 'old' one! However, that doesn't necessary mean that the development efforts are equivalent - the initial MP4-24 was deeply flawed, meaning that improvements from the 'new' design wouldn't necessarily help the 'old' design. However, the MP4-25 doesn't have that problem, so there is much more scope for joint development. Putting it another way - the changes with the 'pretty much new car' due at Silverstone are probably more evolutionary than revolutionary.

Not to be counting any chickens, but it sounds fun

The difference is that the 24 was fundamentally a bad car, whereas the 25 is a good one. So the 24 really needed a revamp to become a top-3 car... And still, at tracks like Spa, lacked the pace to get into Q3, although we never saw what Lewis could have done in the race. The 25 is a very good car which probably has the biggest potential and is the most advanced car in the field. So its potential is being unleashed bit by bit and that can be coupled with a major step although that wouldn't be 100% necessary.

Still, I believe the team will keep its development pace as of 2009 and will probably outdevelop all the other outfits. And the fact the team is more experienced and counts on two drivers which have already been WDCs, might play a significant psychological advantage by the time the title race will be settling.

argiriano

Jun 11 2010, 12:22

QUOTE (f1rules @ Jun 11 2010, 15:12)

I think so, the endplates, looks like theyve removed the wholes in them´, something mclaren actually introduced if i remember correctly and almost all other teams copied. ALso look at the bigger horisontal element on top of the endplate, that has changed for sure so i think its the new one

Actually wholes was introduced by Toyota in 2008, but I`m not sure McLaren removed them.

Owen

Jun 11 2010, 12:32

QUOTE (f1rules @ Jun 11 2010, 13:12)

I think so, the endplates, looks like theyve removed the wholes in them´, something mclaren actually introduced if i remember correctly and almost all other teams copied. ALso look at the bigger horisontal element on top of the endplate, that has changed for sure so i think its the new one

It seems like mclaren always has the most problems with the design of the frontwing. The last year they experimented a lot but almost always went back to old designs. Last year they had a very complex endplate system but they never got it to work

I think you're right and I think the difference is in the endplates, which weren't shown properly...

bogi

Jun 11 2010, 12:35

QUOTE (Owen @ Jun 11 2010, 14:04)

Anyone know, is this the new wing?
http://twitpic.com/1vk5p9

I think that new and old wing looks same, probably some small change in angle or geometry.

Quote from Scarbs;

QUOTE

Also on the MP4-25 were revised pod wings with the top section gaining a Ferrari style stepped section. This changes suggests other areas of the car were altered for the weekend, but perhaps not visibly so. It was poignant that McLaren ran flow viz tests on Friday morning further strengthening the belief that the car had geometry changes around the front wing.

f1rules

Jun 11 2010, 12:36

QUOTE (argiriano @ Jun 11 2010, 13:22)

Actually wholes was introduced by Toyota in 2008, but I`m not sure McLaren removed them.

Yeah you are right.

CPR

Jun 11 2010, 14:25

from http://mclaren.com/home

QUOTE

1516: NEW PARTS? WE'RE RUNNING A NEW FRONT WING - WE TESTED IT IN TURKEY, BUT IT DIDN'T GIVE US THE BEST RESULTS, SO IT'S BEEN MODIFIED FOR HERE.

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 15:02

Bad quality, but anyway:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/6418/62789710.png

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/8409/23749871.png

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 15:22

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/8674/18341607.png

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/4752/91581159.png

http://img571.imageshack.us/img571/844/80602204.png

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/155850.jpg

The Ragged Edge

Jun 11 2010, 16:49

Mclaren running more wing than I thought. They did the same thing in 07 & 08, as it gave them the best overall lap time.

race addicted

Jun 11 2010, 16:57

Yes! Surely Hamilton will trim off some rear wing for each run now in second free. He was on 312.5 km/h in the first session, the same as Vettel actually.

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 17:06

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/155882.jpg
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/155870.jpg
http://images.gpupdate.net/large/155881.jpg

rodlamas

Jun 11 2010, 17:18

QUOTE (race addicted @ Jun 11 2010, 13:57)

Yes! Surely Hamilton will trim off some rear wing for each run now in second free. He was on 312.5 km/h in the first session, the same as Vettel actually.

I think Vettel got a tow in order to get that speed... Webber was some 6 km/h slower than him and I don't think the Red Bulls are going to have that split in terms of set-up.

beckenlima

Jun 11 2010, 17:21

Keith Collantine at F1fanatic site suggests that...

"...McLaren faster than they look

We’ve seen McLaren top the times sheets on Fridays several times before this year.

But the manner in which they did it today suggests their full advantage over their rivals is greater than Jenson Button’s 0.158 second margin over Michael Schumacher.

In the past we’ve seen them do a lot of low-fuel running, working on their qualifying performance. Today each of their drivers did a single stint with what appears to be a reasonably low fuel load followed by a longer stint.

All of their closest rivals set their times later in the session, as the track became cleaner and grippier.

Although Button set the fastest time Lewis Hamilton set the quickest three sectors – had he strung them together he would have matched Button’s lap to within three thousandths of a second.

Expect the lap times to get much quicker in the second session, assuming it stays dry. In the last F1 race at the Circuit Gilles Villeneuve in 2008 the fastest time of the weekend was set in second practice before the track started to break up. The best lap, a 1′15.752 set by Hamilton, was 1.8 seconds faster than the best from first practice..."

LINK: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2010/06/11/rena...teractive-data/

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 19:04

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/8449/85900397.png

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2002/20678865.png

Grenada

Jun 11 2010, 19:32

All I can say is "oh dear".

race addicted

Jun 11 2010, 19:32

In my mind I just knew McLaren would be on pole here, but there is not the same reason to feel that optimistic now. Second free showed that they couldn't get the softs to work at all. Worrying, 'cause I don't think we're expecting warmer temps tomorrow.

mkay

Jun 11 2010, 19:35

QUOTE (race addicted @ Jun 11 2010, 15:32)

In my mind I just knew McLaren would be on pole here, but there is not the same reason to feel that optimistic now. Second free showed that they couldn't get the softs to work at all. Worrying, 'cause I don't think we're expecting warmer temps tomorrow.

It's going to be a tad warmer tomorrow, but don't expect a lot of sunlight.

I don't think McLaren showed their hand too much. Definitely, the talks of 'domination' at Montreal were pure BS. McLaren likely put too much downforce on the car. They should try a low-drag configuration, honestly. They'd gain a couple of tenths in S3 and wouldn't lose a thing in S1 and S2. I am surprised they aren't leveragin their advantage properly.

Kimiraikkonen

Jun 11 2010, 19:48

Don´t worry mates, tomorrow and on sunday will rain.

Our car "The 25" on intermediates is the best and Lewis-Button are very good on wet. Remember 1-2 china

Weather Montreal

I think we are on pace, i´d say macca don´t shows his true hand here.

Regards

Owen

Jun 11 2010, 19:54

QUOTE (Grenada @ Jun 11 2010, 20:32)

All I can say is "oh dear".

We seem in good shape Grenada.

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 19:57

Mc_Silver

Jun 11 2010, 19:57

Guys, i think McLaren is only thinking about Sunday. It will rain in sunday, it is almost certain but the timing is important. We have more rear wing than any other car and still we have one of the best top speed which is very encouraging. MAybe we wont be in pole tomorrow but it is the race which gives you points.

Anonymous

Jun 11 2010, 20:06

Interesting.

http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10cdn71.jpg
http://www.formula1.com/wi/597x478/sutton/2010/d10cdn182.jpg

eoin

Jun 11 2010, 20:21

QUOTE (mkay @ Jun 11 2010, 20:35)

It's going to be a tad warmer tomorrow, but don't expect a lot of sunlight.

I don't think McLaren showed their hand too much. Definitely, the talks of 'domination' at Montreal were pure BS. McLaren likely put too much downforce on the car. They should try a low-drag configuration, honestly. They'd gain a couple of tenths in S3 and wouldn't lose a thing in S1 and S2. I am surprised they aren't leveragin their advantage properly.

Vettel had the 19th best top speed on back straight and the fastest time. Running extra wing could also be very crucial in the race as more rear-wing means more in the braking zone drag which will take some of the load off the brakes. If it rains it will also be a bonus.

mclarensmps

Jun 11 2010, 20:33

QUOTE (eoin @ Jun 11 2010, 16:21)

Vettel had the 19th best top speed on back straight and the fastest time. Running extra wing could also be very crucial in the race as more rear-wing means more in the braking zone drag which will take some of the load off the brakes. If it rains it will also be a bonus.

More wing also means more tyre wear (graining), the softs aren't holding out to well on the track. It's a double edged sword.

BillBald

Jun 11 2010, 20:41

QUOTE (The Big Guns @ Jun 11 2010, 21:33)

More wing also means more tyre wear (graining)

I'm not sure that is true. And if you're faster, you are better able to look after your tyres.