grunge
Nov 11 2009, 11:45
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Nov 11 2009, 00:57)
From Harry in the Lewis thread.
Thought it more relevant here, so how will these new charateristics suit certain drivers such as Lewis and Kimi, or will the suit the smooth drivers such as Button?
from our superficial view,narrower fronts mean equal grip b/w the front and the rear(as compared to this year),so the cars will probably have a lesser OSteer tendency than this year.
also have to take into consideration the drastically different requirements of qualifying and race next year.qualifying will take place with fumes onboard where the car warming up its tires quickly will have the advantage while on raceday,the opposite will perhaps be true...
if u see the 07,08 cars,mac were the oversteery cars,thus getting the grip quickly but losing out on hot temp tracks like lewis in istanbul suffering from severe tire wear...ferrari were the opposite.understeery,took longer to heat its tires,suffered in wet conditions drastically but came on top on high temp tracks where its tires lasted longer..
the drivers will have a larger role to play too ..those gentler with their tires will eventually prevail.
MaxFan1
Nov 11 2009, 12:11
QUOTE (grunge @ Nov 11 2009, 11:45)
the drivers will have a larger role to play too ..those gentler with their tires will eventually prevail.
Those gentler on their tires will also be slower as they get up to speed allowing others to speed off and gain some time for the pit stops.
Clatter
Nov 11 2009, 12:14
QUOTE (MaxFan1 @ Nov 11 2009, 12:11)
Those gentler on their tires will also be slower as they get up to speed allowing others to speed off and gain some time for the pit stops.
Those that can preserve their tyres might be able to manage with less pit stops.
dabrasco
Nov 11 2009, 13:15
a lot will come down with how well you can balance speed and tire preservation by both the driver and the car.
if most cars get that optimal balance right, we will be in for a lot of processional racing.
maverick69
Nov 11 2009, 13:46
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Nov 11 2009, 13:15)
a lot will come down with how well you can balance speed and tire preservation by both the driver and the car.
if most cars get that optimal balance right, we will be in for a lot of processional racing.
Fortunatly that's gonna be difficult to find and sustain for an entire GP due to the monumental fuel load dropping off as the race goes on.
dabrasco
Nov 11 2009, 14:04
QUOTE (HarryReams @ Nov 11 2009, 14:46)
Fortunatly that's gonna be difficult to find and sustain for an entire GP due to the monumental fuel load dropping off as the race goes on.
still i can imagine it will be much easier to control a race from the front knowing anyone is hardly gonna get the jump using fuel strategy.
i reckon most races will be one stoppers..start on primes, finish on options.
what will be a bit interesting will be the new phenomena of cars going faster after they pit (fresh rubbers, same fuel load)....
to jump the car in front, you'll have to risk getting on the fresh tires earlier than you might want....which is opposite to when refuelling was allowed
grunge
Nov 11 2009, 15:14
i dont think we'll see all of them going for one stoppers ..tracks will also have a role to play.
the race starts pose an interesting scenario..tones of fuel on new tires..
senna da silva
Nov 11 2009, 15:16
QUOTE (ATM_Andy @ Nov 11 2009, 08:25)
There will be a far more sensible weight distribution and, as such, dynamic balance.
In short, the car will be much better in fast corners.
highdownforce
Nov 11 2009, 15:43
QUOTE (grunge @ Nov 11 2009, 13:14)
the race starts pose an interesting scenario..tones of fuel on new tires..
As the racing finish: fumes and flat tires.
r4mses
Nov 11 2009, 16:55
QUOTE (highdownforce @ Nov 11 2009, 16:43)
As the racing finish: fumes and flat tires.
Isn't that what it's like today?
highdownforce
Nov 11 2009, 17:11
QUOTE (r4mses @ Nov 11 2009, 14:55)
Isn't that what it's like today?
Yes and no, the difference in performance and handling will/should be even more noticeable.
Edit: Specially for one-stoppers.
dabrasco
Nov 11 2009, 17:37
I think the frontrunning cars need to be built with one-stopper in mind on most tracks....
you will almost need like 6tenths per lap over one stopers to make a 2 stop strategy work.... and I find it hard to think you can get that by just using your tyres harder... except the car is just built that way, which I think is a risky philosophy to go i.e. build a car hard on tires but u think has 6 tenths over the rest of the field.
highdownforce
Nov 11 2009, 18:13
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Nov 11 2009, 15:37)
I think the frontrunning cars need to be built with one-stopper in mind on most tracks....
you will almost need like 6tenths per lap over one stopers to make a 2 stop strategy work.... and I find it hard to think you can get that by just using your tyres harder... except the car is just built that way, which I think is a risky philosophy to go i.e. build a car hard on tires but u think has 6 tenths over the rest of the field.
So we already have a WDC!
QUOTE (ATM_Andy @ Nov 10 2009, 14:40)
MP4-25
Dear Andy, what are all those black boxes on the ceiling? ... I cant imagion it being spots only.
thanks, btw: can you ask in McLaren's facility who came up with the sidepots running parallel to the track, it was my idea! ;) Andy, is there an email adres where ideas can be send? I have so much ideas.
grunge
Nov 11 2009, 19:46
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Nov 11 2009, 21:37)
except the car is just built that way, which I think is a risky philosophy to go i.e. build a car hard on tires but u think has 6 tenths over the rest of the field.
a coupla other things will come into consideration too..driver preferences...both and lewis and kimi(?) need OS tendency in the car.something that has been a definite characteristic of the mac cars from last three seasons.quicker to warm up its tires.quicker to degrade....
zarooch
Nov 12 2009, 05:52
Will the times of winter testing now be more representative of pace of the car as because the fuel element will go away? I mean considering the refueling ban, teams will test with heavy fuel load most of the times? though i understand that speed of the car on fumes will be as much important.
QUOTE (zarooch @ Nov 12 2009, 06:52)
Will the times of winter testing now be more representative of pace of the car as because the fuel element will go away? I mean considering the refueling ban, teams will test with heavy fuel load most of the times? though i understand that speed of the car on fumes will be as much important.
Not necessarily so because teams will be looking for headline grabbing laptimes as they strive to keep each other guessing, camouflage their weaknesses and attract sponsors.
dabrasco
Nov 12 2009, 06:42
QUOTE (femi @ Nov 12 2009, 07:00)
Not necessarily so because teams will be looking for headline grabbing laptimes as they strive to keep each other guessing, camouflage their weaknesses and attract sponsors.
yes, I think it will even be worse to get a good reading during tests and practice because of the laptime diff btw running a car with a full tank, half tank or empty tank.
even looking at the long runs wouldnt help much. I guess only when they do the full gp simulation during tests that you can compare
teejay
Nov 12 2009, 08:47
QUOTE (jjcale @ Nov 10 2009, 19:45)
MW would not have taken this decision by himself...
x2 - RD was still well in control at that point.
The Ragged Edge
Nov 12 2009, 09:16
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Nov 12 2009, 06:42)
yes, I think it will even be worse to get a good reading during tests and practice because of the laptime diff btw running a car with a full tank, half tank or empty tank.
even looking at the long runs wouldnt help much. I guess only when they do the full gp simulation during tests that you can compare
I cant see the top teams running with less than half a tank of fuel, even when this is at the end of a 16-20 lap long run. The top teams will keep their powder dry until Bahrain. They will know via their fuel levels and simulations what the ultimate low fuel load time will be. With tyre wear going to be a critical issue, they will want to amass as much tyre data as possible.
rodlamas
Nov 13 2009, 08:37
The rumours that Jenson is getting closer to Mclaren are getting bigger and bigger.
The Ragged Edge
Nov 13 2009, 09:03
QUOTE (peroa @ Nov 13 2009, 08:47)
God, no ...
Button is a world champion.
MikeTekRacing
Nov 13 2009, 09:05
QUOTE (dabrasco @ Nov 11 2009, 16:04)
to jump the car in front, you'll have to risk getting on the fresh tires earlier than you might want....which is opposite to when refuelling was allowed
I could still not work because of the ban on tire warmers.
the car in front can pit 1-2 laps later than you did and still come out with a big lead to warm its own tires.
performance will not be great out of the pits bur a few laps later, giving the others time to react
QUOTE (rodlamas @ Nov 13 2009, 08:37)
The rumours that Jenson is getting closer to Mclaren are getting bigger and bigger.
Yeh, reading that Brawn won't budge on his contract offer. All seems a bit odd.
Makes me wonder who would drive the Brawn, Rosberg + ?
Having said that Bernard just thought it was 'sparring' and that Button and Brawn would be confirmed soon though.
What is your opinion on te rumours that have been circulating that McLaren is looking to produce its own engines. Is this just journo talk or does the story have any legs?
I have little understanding of the internal workings at McLaren, but the way that the story has been presented seems to be a credible possibility. It is not that often that the possibility of purchasing a licensing agreement, or plant and fittings for an F1 engine presents itself. The Toyota engine would not be a bad starting point and McLaren has worked BMW engines before I think.
undersquare
Nov 13 2009, 09:28
QUOTE (pgj @ Nov 13 2009, 09:16)
What is your opinion on te rumours that have been circulating that McLaren is looking to produce its own engines. Is this just journo talk or does the story have any legs?
I have little understanding of the internal workings at McLaren, but the way that the story has been presented seems to be a credible possibility. It is not that often that the possibility of purchasing a licensing agreement, or plant and fittings for an F1 engine presents itself. The Toyota engine would not be a bad starting point and McLaren has worked BMW engines before I think.
My instinct is it's in Ron's plan to have a McLaren F1 engine, just a bit early right now.
I think he'd look at whatever opportunities there are, but Toyota is the least powerful engine and the facility is in Cologne, I can't see him paying good money for that, as a whole anyway.
In any case I feel sure customer Merc engines will be available for as long as Mac want them.
QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Nov 13 2009, 10:03)
Button is a world champion.
Good for him!
f1rules
Nov 13 2009, 09:41
button is the last person i want at Mclaren, not him please. I prefer raikonnen, heidfeld, rosberg, kobayashi
I agree that the Merc engine is there for McLaren. It was interesting that Ron turned up at Abu Dhabi at the same time that Merc's top brass were there. I am sure that it does not take a GP for Ron to get an audience with them, but I took it as a very public display of the strength of the relationship.
If McLaren did but the Toyota plant I would expect it to be tools plant and that it would be moved away from Germany. It would not be a bad starting point to begin building an engine from. The basic building blocks are there. I shall continue to watch this eventuality with interest. Ron always has an eye towards making McLaren stronger.
QUOTE (rodlamas @ Nov 13 2009, 08:37)
The rumours that Jenson is getting closer to Mclaren are getting bigger and bigger.
...and that's just what they are, rumours, it ain't gonna happen in my opinion.
Jenson will know when he wakes up in the morning that although he's WDC he would get the living shit kicked out of him by Lewis - if he's sane he won't and he doesn't strike me as a looney!
Like I said in another post, these rumours are being used as negotiating tools by both parties; when the music stops the main players will be sat pretty much where expected as nothing remains a secret for very long in this industry!
QUOTE (pgj @ Nov 13 2009, 10:06)
I agree that the Merc engine is there for McLaren. It was interesting that Ron turned up at Abu Dhabi at the same time that Merc's top brass were there. I am sure that it does not take a GP for Ron to get an audience with them, but I took it as a very public display of the strength of the relationship.
If McLaren did but the Toyota plant I would expect it to be tools plant and that it would be moved away from Germany. It would not be a bad starting point to begin building an engine from. The basic building blocks are there. I shall continue to watch this eventuality with interest. Ron always has an eye towards making McLaren stronger.
Indeed sir, even though the future is uncertain for us Macca fans atm you can guarantee it'll be rosy come Bahrain '10!
(I hope!)
MaxFan1
Nov 13 2009, 10:33
Ron has learnt his lesson after 2007. And on top of that MW is the type who prefers a #1 and #2 driver.
Clatter
Nov 13 2009, 11:16
QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 13 2009, 09:05)
I could still not work because of the ban on tire warmers.
the car in front can pit 1-2 laps later than you did and still come out with a big lead to warm its own tires.
performance will not be great out of the pits bur a few laps later, giving the others time to react
Don't think tyre warmers are banned.
dabrasco
Nov 13 2009, 16:51
QUOTE (MikeTekRacing @ Nov 13 2009, 10:05)
I could still not work because of the ban on tire warmers.
the car in front can pit 1-2 laps later than you did and still come out with a big lead to warm its own tires.
performance will not be great out of the pits bur a few laps later, giving the others time to react
tire warmers are not banned, so it probably wont take more than a lap to get up to speed...especially if teams use the softer tire option later in the race, as you'd expect
Anonymous
Nov 13 2009, 17:08
QUOTE (peroa @ Nov 13 2009, 18:12)
Secks!
leomac
Nov 13 2009, 19:11
"Button and his manager, Richard Goddard, today visited the McLaren headquarters at Woking, where they were given an escorted tour of the facilities by Martin Whitmarsh, the team principal. A contract could be signed as early as next week if terms can be finalised"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/1...n-mclaren-brawn
Anomnader
Nov 13 2009, 19:14
Would button really be prepared to go against Lewis?
It'll be a interesting battle.
So the other day we had Kimi today we have Button when is it going to be Heidfelds?
Brawn BGP 001
Nov 13 2009, 19:14
QUOTE (Anomnader @ Nov 13 2009, 19:14)
Would button really be prepared to go against Lewis?
It'll be a interesting battle.
So the other day we had Kimi today we have Button when is it going to be Heidfelds?
Kimi or Nick.
undersquare
Nov 13 2009, 19:20
QUOTE (leomac @ Nov 13 2009, 19:11)
"Button and his manager, Richard Goddard, today visited the McLaren headquarters at Woking, where they were given an escorted tour of the facilities by Martin Whitmarsh, the team principal. A contract could be signed as early as next week if terms can be finalised"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/1...n-mclaren-brawnWell I hope that's just sending Kimi a message.
Brawn BGP 001
Nov 13 2009, 19:21
QUOTE (undersquare @ Nov 13 2009, 19:20)
Well I hope that's just sending Kimi a message.
I think so, IMO they will go for Heidfeld if they fail to get Kimi.
QUOTE (peroa @ Nov 13 2009, 10:12)
Was that the top gear track at the 14s mark?
edit - confirmed later in video. Wonder what it ran?
hunnylander
Nov 13 2009, 19:49
QUOTE (leomac @ Nov 13 2009, 22:11)
"Button and his manager, Richard Goddard, today visited the McLaren headquarters at Woking, where they were given an escorted tour of the facilities by Martin Whitmarsh, the team principal. A contract could be signed as early as next week if terms can be finalised"
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/nov/1...n-mclaren-brawnSilly season at its best.
hunnylander
Nov 13 2009, 19:53
There was a little Mac testing at Silverstone today, as an award for Stefan Wilson, the 2007 McLaren/Autosport/BRDC Young Driver of the Year.
Absolutely loved it!Never experience power like that,lots of standing water,No TC!!wheelspin in 5th!Massive adrenaline rush!
QUOTE (hunnylander @ Nov 13 2009, 20:53)
There was a little Mac testing at Silverstone today, as an award for Stefan Wilson, the 2007 McLaren/Autosport/BRDC Young Driver of the Year.
Absolutely loved it!Never experience power like that,lots of standing water,No TC!!wheelspin in 5th!Massive adrenaline rush!
eliteboy2780
Nov 13 2009, 20:18
QUOTE (bond @ Nov 13 2009, 19:57)
I was showing a client round today, and watched Stefan for a few laps, when he spun in front of us at brooklands! it doesn't say that on the release does it??!! Incidentally he was also way way off the pace, and appeared talentless. I'm glad he enjoyed it though as that will be his only chance in f1!!!
TheArmchairCritic
Nov 13 2009, 20:51
"Speaking in Abu Dhabi earlier this month, Whitmarsh said simulations were already showing the MP4-25 to be ahead of the 2009 car's performance leaving him optimistic for the start of next season."
"We are working very hard [on the 2010 car]," he said.
"I can tell you that probably five or six weeks ago the inherent performance of next year's car was already ahead of this year's car. Week by week that's improving as you'd expect it to and for a good many weeks this year's car hasn't been in the wind tunnel, hasn't been in the supercomputers, hasn't been in the development process we've been concentrating [on the 2010 car] and that's a balance."
"Of course next year we have got some [rule] changes the prohibition of rotating hub caps and the prohibition of refuelling, and smaller front tyres but the overall aerodynamic regulations are not fundamentally different so development this year is more likely to be applicable next year."
"So it's a different balance and we made a judgement last year which was following 2007 we desperately needed to win in 2008, we did, and this year we really need to win next year."
"We have certainly put much, much more effort into next year's car earlier than we have done for many years and it's certainly the intention of the team that we arrive in Bahrain next year competitive. That's how you win championships."”
Source:http://www.itv-f1.com/news_article.aspx?id=47416
Anomnader
Nov 13 2009, 20:58
QUOTE (eliteboy2780 @ Nov 13 2009, 20:18)
I was showing a client round today, and watched Stefan for a few laps, when he spun in front of us at brooklands! it doesn't say that on the release does it??!! Incidentally he was also way way off the pace, and appeared talentless. I'm glad he enjoyed it though as that will be his only chance in f1!!!
I don't find spinning a F1 car in the went when its your first drive anything at all to be ashamed off. Lewis spun the donkey a couple of times in the wet.
Way off the pace compared to who?
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