Well, a blown flap is just what it says - a flap that's being blown, either internally or externally. And since the upper element of an F1 wing is essentially a flap, the use of the term is correct, even if the term 'blown wing' might be a bit more intuitively understood. I suppose that if they're blowing both the upper and lower element (and I think they are), then you have both a blown wing and a blown flap. Regardless, the principal involved is exactly the same: air is blown across a wing in order to help keep the boundary layer from detaching. This means you can have a higher angle attack on the wing without it stalling.

What I think you're getting at is that there are two ways of using a blown wing. The traditional way is like I described it above - you use it to gain greater lift for a plane; or, turned upside down, more downforce for an F1 car. Easy-peasy. The twist here is that McLaren have supposedly added the ability to turn the blowing on or off. This gives us a second option as to how to use the wing - since the blowing is used to keep the wing from stalling, then if the blowing is turned off, then obviously the wing will stall. And yes, it is a good thing to stall an F1 wing, but that's a discussion unto itself.

The amount of blowing needed indeed could be accomplished at low speed. This makes sense when you think about the principle behind multi-element wings themselves, as it is essentially the same - that is, one element acts to blow a stream of air across the back of the next. I don't think a lot of people understand this, and I think it's why Scarbs is confused about McLaren and BMW (and Ferrari) using this last year. Last year, they just created three element wings, simple as that. But, like I say - it's really the same, so I guess we can let Scarbs slide.

I wish we could discuss the intricaties of Ferrari aerodynamics half as much as we do Mclaren's at least.

Thats the theory, althou having purchased the new issue of autosport today in it theres a little article where the bridgestone engineers have reported that jenson is struggling to make his tyres last and is suffering from degradation problems and lewis isn't having any problems with it at all, slightly surprising.

Interesting, were there comments about other drivers in this regard?

No it was more than just driving style. eg During the race sim LH changed his driving style for each stint. The first stint was very measured and it was clear he was looking after the tyres. At that point, I was right in front of the chicane and he took it quite differently from when he attacked in the last stint and it was the same all over the rest of the track (I could see about one third of the track from my seat and there was a good mix of corners). He completely calmed down his driving in the first stint but he still had the issues coming out of cornes particularly the medium speed and low speed ones. Unlike last year, the car seems fine at high speed its the medium and low speed stuff that it seems to be finding a bit tricky.

... hopefully they can sort it out with set up changes. eg On Sunday morning the problems looked much worse than in the afternoon and I suspect they did a set up change which improved things.

Anyway. I just report what I saw. I dont consider myself qualified to say what the causes or consequences are. Macca was fastest on Sunday, which came a surprise to me when I got back to England. I expected Red Bull to be top and by a good margin so there are limits to merely observing at the track. But I spoke to photographers all along the circuit as I walked round and they have been to all the tests and they saw things the same way that I did except they all felt that Ferrari was at the front then Redbull but I put it the other way round.

Redfive on PF1 saw the same as me - down the precise corners that gave the most trouble - so I am sure of what I saw. JB was driving when he was at the track and by his account JB had an even worse time of it than LH.

BTW are you over here permanently now or are you in both forums?

Deadzone KAERO

I think the 25 while fast, might be an handful to drive, especially if this rumored switching deadzone on and off is reality cos ud think that would affect the handling in some way.

In any case, Hamilton had good preparation driving the Silver Donkey last year. Funny thing is even for the first stint of that race simulation where you say he was taking it easy....his times were still relatively impressive and slowly tumbling down.

Guess thats why most of us are fans of the driver, very adaptable.

Hope Jenson can sort out the tire problems, if the rumors are true.

Not creating excuses but when Lewis had the car it had an optimal set up. Jenson had the task of getting it to that level the day before. I don't feel concerned by this.

na, if i remember rightly it was only a small little side article, althou it did say that red bull have quite big problems with tyre degradation at the moment and sauber look after thier tyres pretty well.

This thread has turned really interesting over the last couple of pages - love the aero discussions/explanations.

It was quite obvious at launch - not in the least because Whitmarsh more or less said so - that there were some special and clever solutions on it. We were right to make a big deal about McLaren's shark fin, as it now seems to be confirmed that its function is much more complicated than the usual Red Bull-style shark fins.

I agree with Dabrasco that, if there really is deliberate stalling at high speed going on, the car would probably be tricky to drive as the wing kicks "in" and "out" with the effect of the blown slot.

Lewis hasn't had tyre problems since middle of 2008 but don't tell the haters

It never fails to amuse me how they clam up when you ask them to name the races where he has had tyre problems.

Looking back at the tests, JB hasn't actually driven the car as much as LH in the dry - maybe that is the reason.

He was seriously backing off and taking some different lines, changing gears at different times in the slow corners, making sure not to lock the front wheels or slide in the slow corners ... This year you will be able to see the difference between when the track is being attacked and when tyres are being preserved on high fuel. That last stint was sweet. It made Spanish Ferrari fans get up and leave as they thought (like I did in the morning) that the 25 was rubbish. By the time he caught MS they were well annoyed. He must have caught MS at something like 5 seconds a lap. I am not kidding.

It was clear the car is fast. My issue is: if the Ferrari and the Redbull can pretty much match the times and look planted what will happen when FA and FM and SV and MW hang it out in quali. To me the 25 just looked like it was being driven closer to its limits than the others rather than than it was as a better car.

If it's just used on the straight, then it shouldn't be a problem. The car would still be generating downforce even if the wing is stalled - through the diffuser, of course, but also because the rear wings generate a portion of their downforce though drag.

Good piece about the Barcelona test for McLaren in this weeks Autosport (print).

Hamilton hails McLaren's 'one second' improvement
Last minute aero updates enable Briton to set the pace in the fourth and final pre-season test.

The article then spells out the work that was carried out that (once set up correctly) gave a one second improvement

-Modified diffuser; improved and refined
-Hole in the floor; maximising underbody air flow
-Sculpted sidepods; modified to improve air flow to rear
-New front wing; more simple, making the car less pitch sensitive
-Front brake ducts; reduced in size to improve airflow while still bearing in mind brake wear and temperature issues
-Bigger turning vane; larger vertical wing attached to side pods
-Engine cover; allowing the rear wing to work more consistently

So, the improvement was not about switching on the 'trick' rear wing, it was more the accumulation of a number of refinements. Great job.

the modifications do look promising!

just 10 days to go for a better overall picture.

No one is hating on lewis, even autosport themselves made the point that out of lewis and jenson having trouble trying to make the tyres last most people would probably put money on jenson being better at it, stop being so over defence, any way this is the macca 25 thread not the lewis v jenson one so lets move on.

Not a case of being over defensive, it's something that is regulary brought up by some and not just in relation to this coming season, but whenever challanged they fail to back up their comments.

Yeah, "experts" regularly think that Button will have better race pace because of tire management

i dont understand why some people talk about a big turnaround, mclaren looked decent during all testing, offcourse the new aero helped, but i always believed they had something up their sleeve and were at the front

thanks

yea I hear u, the flipside of that is if we are "letting it hang" but managing the tires well, while Red Bull n co are planted but having more degradation problems, how about when they let it hang.... remember also that you have to use Q3 tires to start the race, so it will be stupid to "let it hang too much" as your tires might be shot for the start of the race.


It also points to the fact that there is still a huge development window... if we can get the car planted without losing speed with better set-up or updates...then it would deliver maximum Justice.

all in all, the important things are that the pace is good, and the drivers and the team are satisfied with the progress and think its competitive.

we'll see how it goes a week from now

Could he be having a similar problem to Heikki where they spend more time loading the car up in the corners than Lewis?

I'm here permanently i believe we both had the same problem on the other forum

Right that's it. I'm taking next Friday off to watch the practice. I cannot bear this any more and I need my F1 fix ASAP!

Seems quite likely doesn't it, a classical style. I'm wondering how many of the other top cars Jenson will be able to beat, actually.

Well i work Saturdays, i'm gonna book next Saturday off

Consider the benefits of FlexiSick.....

maybe the Ferrari bashing can stop now...although I don't know why any team are "bashed" for wanting clarification... would be better they do it before the GP rahter than protest after - ie.. keeping it up their sleeve....as we have seen in the past from certain teams
........

Well the owner is also my friend so.......

Unless McLaren begins the season winning and winning big. Then it will be revisited and acted upon as we've seen FIA do to Scuderia Ferrari's opposition...

I hope I'm incorrect in my "analysis".

I think you "analysis" is rubbish my friend...This year Toad not Mad Max is head honcho of FIAt

Yes its a pretty childish attitude, its the responsibility of the teams to look after their own interests, if they are in doubt they should ask before they waste resources looking at like solutions.

It gives me goosebumps at just how good this McLaren engineering team is at finding improvements.

It would be funny if the purpose of the air scoop ahead of the driver was simply for driver and components cooling.

Earlier in this thread during the tests, someone posted a picture that seemed to indicate an additional slot in the main forward element. Does anyone know or have pictures of Mclaren running this new, innovative, Sharkfin powered slot as well as the tradition main element slot, driven by the 150mm scoop in the centre of the main plane?

Obi

I don't remember them running a scoop this year, but I do think there is a slot in the lower wing as well as the upper one. It seems pretty evident here...

http://images.gpupdate.net/large/146781.jpg

I think it would have to be fed by the center strut. This actually makes a bit of sense, assuming they are using a fluidic amp to switch the airflow, since the strut and the outlet over the tail light intersect. The amp could be located in the rear of the car under the engine cover, switching the flow from the lower wing to the outlet over the tail light (or the engine cover slot, I suppose) and back. I'd assume that if the lower element stalls, then the upper one would follow. But this whole paragraph is just wild speculation.

Williams, on the other hand, seem to be experimenting with exactly what you're talking about...

http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/5581/43...346eb411a4o.jpg
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/9482/43...aca893c724o.jpg

It's sort of a middle ground between the three-plane center sections some of the teams ran last year, with the blown wing that McLaren is using. They are collecting air via the center scoop and distributing it through a slot that extends across the entire wing.

Sorry who ever posted that is right when talking about an aircraft but is very very wrong when talking about an F1 car.
An aircraft wing does not have the body of the car in effect along the whole length of the wing any drag caused by the wing directly only effects that wing and it does effect the body of the aircraft apart from the point where the wing meets the body of the aircraft. However when you look at the wing of an F1 car it and the whole body of the car do effect each other and the stalling of the wing on an F1 car will reduce the low pressure area behind the car by stopping the upward movement of the air (the turbulent air acts as a cap to stop the normal upward deflection of the air). In short aircraft wings can and are considered in isolation F1 wings are not.
Or do you really think McLaren and Ferrari have really got it wrong when they say that the stalling of the wing allows McLaren to gain top speed?

Thanks for posting the pic pup.
I wonder if it's possible to get enough airflow through that central strut, as it doesn't seem to have much volume and the flow will have to turn through 90 degrees which probably isn't ideal. Also how would it be fed, where would the air originate from? If from the airbox above the drivers head, the airflow will have to turn through 90 degrees twice. The first at the bottom of the strut and the second at the connection to the main element.

I agree, it's circuitous. But why else the slot, and how else to feed it? My guess is that since the lower element has such a low angle of attack, relative to the upper, that it wouldn't need nearly as much air through the slot to work. That's the best I can think of at the moment. I do think air would come from behind the driver's helmet. I suspect the talk of oil coolers and such was just a deception.

btw, I edited my earlier post with some Williams info, in case you missed it.

Your point about it needing less air flow seems to make sense. I think the talk of oil cooling may still be valid, I think it was mentioned on the MP4-24 also.

What do you mean by 'amp' in your orginal post?

Why do you describe the Williams system as being between designs from last year and the design on the MP4-25? I thought it mirrors designs from last year, such as the BMW Sauber and MP4-25 system described by Scarbs.

I think last year other teams that used this concept used a 150mm entry and exit for the slot, whereas the BMW Sauber and McLaren went almost full span at the rear. I take it that you are refering to the other designs in 09, such as that on the Ferrari F60?

we all saw the amount of Pitot tubes McLaren stuck all over this car in recent tests, so we can speculate they are still working through this data and the best is yet to come

Already done that!!!

I thought that about the shark fin, how does the air flow through quickly enough through such turns.

But actually the idea of the air "flowing" through is probably misleading, if we imagine instead that the available spaces in the channel fill with air, then the air pushing at one end will push the air out the other, and this won't be affected by 90 degree bends in the channel?

Print version of Autosport says that, according to Bridgestone engineers, Hamilton was using the the tires much more smoothly than Button, who was all over the place.

It also says that RBR is the top car that stresses the tires at the most.

Is that good or bad? It sounds bad, but havent seen the article so don't know if there is an explanation around it.

I think part of that can be attributed to Button still getting used to many of the systems and wheel layout in the McLaren. I'm not sure if McLaren are still using the inverter/j-damper, but if they are, the extra mechanical grip that it provides may be tricky to get used to in some situations.

According to A'sport print

Fastest Lap During Race Distance
Ferrari
McLaren +0.1
Mercedes +0.4
Sauber +0.6
Force India +0.7
Renault +0.7
Williams +1.1
Red Bull + 1.3 (reliability skewed)
Torro Rosso +1.5

Average Race Pace - Per Lap
McLaren
Mercedes +0.2
Sauber +0.6
Renault +0.6
Ferrari +0.9 (weather skewed)
Force India +1.2
Red Bull +1.3 (reliability skewed)
Torro Rosso +1.4
Williams +1.9

Thanks.

Another list, another order, I don't think it can be done. Skewed for this and that, updates coming more for some than others, different drivers...

For just one thing, I see Lewis' MP4-25 being in a completely different place from Jenson's.