Red Bull has already chosen their engine (Renault) for next year. Decision was made almost a month ago so it really doesn't matter now what happens. I doubt Newey would want 'to do a Brawn' and try and slap a Mercedes engine in and restrict what he can or can't do with his chassis design.

Do you have confirmation on that? (Not that I don't believe what you are writing, but I have never read any official confirmation)

And if Newey/RedBull was informed about this deal some time ago, he could have designed the car around the Merc engine for the past few weeks...

Difficulty I have here is trying not to get anybody in trouble at Red Bull Technology. So lets just say I know a couple of people on the shop floor who have been pressing on designing around said unit, and a decision was made about six weeks ago after McLaren veoted any Mercedes-Benz involvement. The Renault engine isn't all that bad, lacks abit of peak power, but makes up for that in fuel consumption which will be handy for next year. It's also the reason why members of the Red Bull team were name dropping them at every opportunity in Brazil and Abu Dhabi.

Thanks. I also believe that the Renault engine has it's strengths. Mainly fuel consumption and keeping the performance during the lifecycle of the engine.

Would have been fun to have the Cosworth in the back of the Red Bull (so that we could have seen how the engine would compared to the others in a (presumably) good car). But I guess that would have been to much of a gamble. It's easier for Williams to take that gamble, but Red Bull is targeting WDC and WCC so it would have been a bigger gamble than staying with Renault.

With today's Merc/Brawn announcement, where does it leave McLaren's veto of Merc engines to Red Bull? Still a chance of Merc engines or hope Renault comes to the party?

Did you read the 5 previous posts on this thread?

guess that comes from multiple windows with multiple threads open.

RBR will get Mercedes engines, Renault will retire from F1.

So we will have 12 teams, 3 on Ferrari (Ferrari, STR and Sauber), 4 on Mercedes (Mclaren, Mercedes, RBR and Force India) and 5 on Cosworth (Lotus, Manor, USF1, Campos and Williams).

I'm not saying you are wrong, but it kinda contradicts this information (see a few posts further up):



Do you have a source for your claim about Renault?

And what about the Renault F1 team at Enstone (which is signed on to the Concorde Agreement)?

Have Red Bull signed Raikkonen for '11? bad bad move.


webber is cheaper and more entertaining with his mishaps, much better for RBR


if Kimi wants to sail into RBR, he should sign 3-year deal with Toro Rosso... if he can get them in top 5 WCC (quite possibly, current drivers aren't possibly good at setups and are probably a fair bit slower than the Iceman) he should then have earnt a transfer to RBR after 1 season

I guess that next year the performance of the engines will be interesting to watch. Let us hope that Renault can compete with Mercedes, Ferrari and the rest.

H2H

According to AMuS Renaults future is hanging in the balance (nothing new) and Red Bull might not have a engine supply from Renault in the worst case scenario. The Red Bull is being built around the Renault at the moment.

McLarens veto might still be in place and will possibly only be lifted should Renault pull out altogether.

http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-...er-1477520.html

Right now, i'm not particularly worried about what could happen at Renault, as everybody talking about a Renault pullout is also saying Renault will continue supplying engines.

That being said, what would be stopping Red Bull from purchasing 20 odd engines for 2010 and having them all lined up to go before Melbourne? Would Renault's production capacity allow it?

Today's FIA entry list for 2010 confirms that Red Bull will continue their relationship with Renault (like I said a while ago).

I said the exact same thing on another forum, with the potential withdrawal of Renault.

If I'm not mistaken Red Bull had confirmed to stay with Renault already prior to the Abu Dhabi GP. Marc Surer repeatedly said so that weekend and iirc motorsport-total reported it too. Admittedly there was never a public announcement of that kind, but what's so strange about it? The contract wasn't to end in 2009 anyways, was it? So effectively they're just doing what they announced a few years ago.

And as Dank already stated the French engine ain't too bad. It was a bit off the mark in late 2008, but that's mostly because the others cheated and Renault didn't. In 2009 and before 2008 it was fine. Newey even preferred it over the Ferrari unit - and obviously he still does. And if he does I think us fans shouldn't be afraid.

So now Christian is saying he doesn't have a contract yet with Renault, despite submitting the name in the FiA entry. He says he's waiting for assurance of engine parity. Good move or risky?

To me that reads, Renault are holding out on a deal, not RBR
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80389

Ok yes, read it properly now. Is this a concern? If it's Renault wanting this understanding, what if it doesn't come - in a way they'd be happy I mean.

RBR/Renault must be pretty confident. Horner talks like its a formality and states they have no engine back up plan.

Well good. Hope it's not the first whisp of bad smoke...

This silly season has been a messy ones, so like Schumacher say, never say never, in this case a bad sign naturally. Horner can be just showing off his brave face. What is the fall out plan for RBR? buying out Toyota engine division?

1. Holding out until the Renault threat to leave bears fruit and parity considerations are granted
2. Using the STR design for engine mounting in the back of a RBR
3. Being so thoroughly impressed by the Cosworth numbers that a late design change can be justified - see Brawn.

Strange times to be sorting an engine deal, obviously the timing of this gives us some indication of the importance of what is going on behind the scenes.

And MW got a single day test, where Fisi also was there, and MW was over one second faster, first time in an F1 car. Flavio was there, and he signed MW within a super short time, and MW would test for Renault for a year, while driving in the lower open wheelers at the same time as doing his Renault testing duties which in those times were considerable. Renault compared MW with the younger Alonso, and chose Alonso for the Renault race seat, although they said at the time that Alonso was no quicker, but was younger. And no doubt, FA had more marketing pull, being Spanish. And its turned out that FA does carry a huge financial backing. Stoddard then got MW into Minardi, and MW got some points, first time for the team for quite a long time. MW then got the Jag drive, and was offered there this time the Renault seat, alongside FA who was established there. But MW chose the BMW backed Williams team, which turned out to be a bad choice. On the Jag, the motor sucked. The team was quite open about it ... still MW put it on the front row a few times.

About the cars, the wheels won't have covers next season, and this will have a great effect on the aero IMO. Also since the cars will be much heavier, the brake cooling will be more important than last year, and the cooling will be new due to the change in the wheel covers. While its an opportunity, I reckon the bigger teams with the bigger resources might gain something in that area. McLaren never seem to get brake issues (accept when Ferrari said they were using Ferrari IP for their rear braking system - which basically gave them close to ABS, due to changing pressure balancing under brakes, which I still think was against the rules! ). McLaren had eight separate teams working on alternative rear braking concepts. I don't see RBR have such resources! I also recall RBR having occasional brake issues - one time MW broke a disk at the end of a fast Q2 ... we've seen MW have a brake issue this season too, and also have had that brake dust issue which often indicates overheating carbon disks ... and he stopped in a race due to his front brakes I think. So I think the brakes are an issue for some potential good design, but I fear its an area where big developers such as Ferrari and McLaren, have a competitive advantage in that area.

About the front of the RBR5 v the Brawn, its accepted that the Brawn had superior front aero hence front grip. The RBR5 had the weight too far back, until the MkII car came along (the Silverstone car) where the wheels were both moved back, which shifted the weight forward. But the RBR still didn't have the front aero excellence of the Brawn most felt.

The extra weight will also challenge cooling again, because extra weight will stress the engine more IMO. Lots of packaging issues there ... but then such packaging issues might suit Newey, he's good at that although his reputation is that sometimes he goes overboard a bit! But then he doesn't design the car really does he!!!

Thanx for this. Narrower front tyre means that the car has lot more wind falling onto the Side pods, the flow towards the rear can give more down force to the rear wing... I assume new aero balance has to be found, next to this brake issue, the balancing of the car can be a critical criteria? In this light, Pull/push rod for the rear suspension mounting is still a thing to look at. It gives such a THIN rear end, that creates so much less drags.








Thanx for this. So In case RBR loses Renault they gonna think about ripping off Ferrari from the back of its sister's car? Now that wil make the car a dirty sister!

IMO it would be easier for Red Bull to buy the Renault engine operation. Afterall that is what Flavio did, when Renault quit their F1 engine operations which made the dominant 1.5 litre turbo engines. Flavio bought the engine plant from Renault - probably for nothing - and he kept the operation going, on a reduced scale, and sold the engines under the Mechachrome label. Then when Renault decided to come back, they simply bought the plant back from Flavio - which was always Flavio's intention. All very clever. Flavio could take it back - if he wins his F1 exclusion Court Case/Appeal. I doubt even if he was banned, that F1 could stop him owning the engine plant anyway. Only problem with all that though, is the new 4 cylinder engines which are on the way. A new engine would have to be developed - which would cost more than the current program IMO, which is supposed not to include the extremely expensive process of continual development.

that's why we need people like flavio.. they make things happen..



...err..including race fixing

Webber was beating both Irvine and the other Jaquar driver consistently with his crappy Minardi. Jaquar would rather have Webber than Panis for sure at the time.

How terrifying could Max be to his opponent, but we also know that Frank suffered his race decades with Mechachrome as well.


Renault trying to sell the stock to the third party is a serious thing this time it is because Flavio left the position. There is no one anymore to convince Board of Directors for the team operation. So Let us assume that Richard wraps up the purchase of the team with either Korean money, which sounds pretty mucky to me, or Russian with Petrov if he were to have interests in a competative race seats, do Richard shoulder the engine division of Renault as well then?


... The world engine could kill him as he is not a tough business man like Flav ? Do Richard make RBR go bust to make his own profit?

From what i can tell, Renault have zero to very little intention on leaving F1 altogether. All plans to sell either part or all of the team seem to include continuing to supply engines for at least 2010, to both the Enstone team and Red Bull.

Who's to say they wont leave team ownership for a few years and come back with the intention of getting more involved with Red Bull? A bit optimistic i'm sure, but if Renault left F1 i dont think they'd be gone for good, nor do i think Honda and BMW will be gone for good.

Any of you blokes watching the test times from this Riccardio kid? First time int he car and he seems a natural, do you taker a punt and get him in the STR seat if you're helmut? Even loan him out to learn somewhere else? It's b eena while since a young guy sat in a car first time and went BANG , not since Vettel actually.

Renault is going to sell the English race car operation, from what the Press is reporting. So Endstone would loose Renault factory aids, which although considerable, would have been in a reduction phase due to the downsizing of the teams that has been going on.

The race engine business in France must also be under threat, for a couple of reasons. Firstly homologation has limited the resources required. Secondly the FIA is favouring a common engine, and the appointment of Cosworth is an indication of how the FIA would prefer a common engine. Thirdly the change to a 4 cylinder is coming, and that offers a development period, but it will not last long. Fourthly the failure to continue with KERS must have limited the expected engine resources required for F1. So I think that even if Renault continued with an engine operation, it would be much much smaller than has been its size since Renault re-entered F1. I would say it would be closed down, or sold - perhaps to the owner of the Red Bull Racing? Or maybe Bernie might want to own it? But I doubt Renault, since previously, they sold the race engine operation when they left F1. In fact, they were going to shut it down, but Flavio offered to keep it going for them, and if they returned, he'd sell it back to them. They need another Flavio perhaps ...

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?showtopic=119817

I don't think selling their engine business would be necessary for an F1 exit. They're involved in so many more things than F1 that selling the engines would be representative of a total pull out of almost any motorsport they're involved in.

In business terms, what is the opportunity cost of not selling the engine company? What profit could those funds be used for? Then compare that cost, to the cost of running the engine operation. Then you have a financial figure - the difference between selling and staying. And then you compare that opportunity cost, with the returns available from staying, which are publicity based. And then, how well does that publicity return, meet the corporate strategy of the Group? And how well does that publicity return, meet the Racing Business Unit's strategy? Are there better returns from other racing endeavours?

If one just looks at a recent success line, IMO the period where Renault won two driver and two manufacturer championships in a row was the best period for Renault, when Alonso was their star driver. Since then, I imagine the team's returns have been below those that were planned. It could easily be the case too, that being an engine supplier is not what Renault want to be. And perhaps, the FIA does not want an engine war. One might ask, what is the point of Renault spending money in a formula that does not encourage development? One might also understand that Renault were upset that while they homologated their engine, both Ferrari and Mercedes developed their engines after they were homologated. That resulted in Renault wasting their investments, due to not understanding the FIA. Ahead, the FIA promises more uncertainty. With all that has gone before, I would understand them leaving. And the four cylinder engine is just another high level of uncertainty.

Meanwhile Renault could go somewhere else, and feel quite satisfied that they achieved a lot in F1. Which has been the way they have competed too - they've come, done well, and left. The difference this time with the engine opportunity, is that things are much more uncertain than they have been before. IMO they should wait until the V8 period finishes, and then quit. The future engine scenario is uncertain though, and Renault cannot estimate how successful they might be due to such uncertainty. Hence I expect them to leave by the time the F1 4 cylinders arrive, if not before.

Seasons greetings from Vettel and Webber

http://www.f1technical.net/news/13906?sid=...a25c41c8c8e54e3

I like Mark doing Vettel's No.1 sign!

very good, but someone else should have written their material haha!

Haha. Trying to imagine what Kimi would have said if he were to do one of those.

Down on page 6 already! Need to dig this out now. Having seen the recent thread about the promo event in Montreal I was wondering. Who is our 3rd/replacement driver anyways? Last season it was Jaime, who was replaced by Hartley when he jumped into the Torro Rosso. In late 09 Ricciardo and Bortolotti did the rookie test. Does anyone know about 2010 already?

Also there are a couple of news about other teams presenting their cars. I take it Red Bull will present the new car in Valencia just before the first test again?

Am 99.9% certain Daniel Ricciardo will be Red Bull's reserve driver for 2010.

Thanks mate.

Really ?

Maybe Ric will drive in Webber's place, considering he may receive collateral damage between the Mosley [FIA] vs Briatore war.
Webber is still conected to Flav and FIA won't allow him to race in 2010 as part of Flav peanlties.

And the likelihood of Webber not driving this season for that very reason I would estimate is 0.01%.

I wouldn't doubt about anything in 2010 silly season.

JamesAlen is considering it seriously.

Flav manages Mark's driving contracts, Anne does everything else. Mark already has a 2010 seat, so he's not currently negotiating a new contract, so Flav isn't involved, so there isn't a problem....... perhaps in a few months this may be an issue.

James is just being his normal excitable self.

Not the same James Allen who likes to stir things up to epic proportions to, oh drats, increase visitor numbers to his blog and raise his stock?

Webber will be driving this year. Full stop.

Nice article by Adrian Newey in AMuS.

Can't wait for once again main duel, Schumi vs. Newey (or is it going to be Seb(i)?).