Today the 250 World Championship was buried alongside her sisters, 50, 80, 350 and 500.

The only surviving sibling, 125, will no doubt follow in due course.

Adieu.

All for the sake of ......................... what exactly !!!!!!
The end of traditional racing is nigh
Why , oh why do those who should know better , have to meddle , if it 'aint broke , don't fix it !!!

We were fortunate to experience the golden years of the sport Phil, but time marches on, I´m sad to say.
The kids today look at our period in the sport and see it as old fashioned and out dated. To each his own I suppose. At least they can never take our memories away.

And for what?

One of the classes that had close and competitive racing will be replaced by yet another grid full of diesel clones.

It's a great shame that in recent seasons only Aprillia have supported the class to any degree, honda pulled out of any meaningful support some time ago.

Oh well...I look forward to ICGP next year...

I suppose that it ensures that Big H will win at least one class from now on.They did sneak the last 250 crown,but only just.
RIP 250s,your replacement has a hard act to follow.
HW

A sad day for two stroke fans, me included, but & its a big but!! if they all get identical 600 Honda engines then the racing will be closer, I just hope there will be no works/semi works teams from big H involved?

Thats how I see it now. I have a 29yo son who although not into motorcycle riding follows the GP series with great ethusiasm Rossi is his idol
I have 3 racing machines from the 60 s era sitting in my workshop which I occasionally fire up and use, not to race. He is not slightly interested in them pays more attention to his friends modern machinary. But I suppose it is even stevens as I have no interest in modern machinary and by modern I mean anything with disc brakes. Mind you I am a great believer that things tend to go full circle although I guess we will have to have the era of the electric motorcycle before 2 strokes reinvent themselves.

[quote name='Arthur' date='Nov 8 2009, 20:12' post='3985545']
Thats how I see it now. I have a 29yo son who although not into motorcycle riding follows the GP series with great ethusiasm Rossi is his idol
I have 3 racing machines from the 60 s era sitting in my workshop which I occasionally fire up and use, not to race. He is not slightly interested in them pays more attention to his friends modern machinary.

I find it strange and a bit disappointing too Arthur as my son rides a GSXR1000 raced a KR1S and a TZ250 when he was 17. He has never shown any interest in wanting to work with me to build a classic team and I have enough two stokes to have a whole lot of fun on. I would have jumped at the chance if my dad had offered me that I had to start from scratch and still haven't given up I think they just get us out of the cupboard when they need us. Took me 25 years to really get to speak to my dad when I realized how stupid I'd been and we had a few years as good friends. Hope my lad sees this quicker!


That said, there is always the club and classic paddock to keep us happy. Sorry to see two strokes go although we shall at least have all the enthusiasts at the classics instead now.


At least this forum is brilliant


David

I also am sad to see the end of the 250's it's ironic that the factory that want to see the end of the class finish up the winners
But as long as the 600's are policed correctly it should make for some good racing

Arthur / David

I'll ride your bikes if your offering

Chris

Also a little sad to see that both contenders to be the last-ever 250 champ rode like a pair of gumbies, taking it in turns to run off and attempt to crash, until the Hair Bear, who really can be a genuine ace, took it one step too far at turn 2. 250s have been just great, but I'm still scratching my head and looking for a genuine justification for scrapping the 350 class all those years ago, considering the calibre of the racing in that class all round the world.
And don't get me started on those corrupt, blazer-wearing Spanish clowns........ah, progress. (sigh)....

Having grown up around 2 strokes and particularly 250s, I too am fond of them but I must say that I found the class to be lacking in the last few years and I am really looking forward to Moto2. I know its a spec engine class and that is not for the purists but the days of fairing bashing and young guns riding beyond their limit have been very few in recent years (ok there was Malaysia this year) in the two fiddies. WSS has been better on that score. I also feel that what was great for our generation need not be great for the next or subsequent generations. I enjoyed my coming of age in the eighties and all that racing then provided but I truly believe that is not because the racing was so much better but the fact that I was impressionable in the eighties. You talk to a 90 year old and he will reminisce fondly of pre war racing as though it was the best ever, but it does not interest me. I think it is just an age thing and for someone somewhere, the golden age is now.

Not intending to be so disagreeable but just my thoughts. Having said that I would only post them here as I have no interest in any other forum directed at more contemporary folk

Mo

Ahhh!! Glen, "those corrupt (Allegedly) blazer-wearing Spanish clowns"......own the series. Hence disproportionate number of MotoGP rounds in Spain & number of riders with Spanish passports in all classes....I am not anti Spainish though, just how did it happen to turn out like this?

Mo, did Yamaha tender for the Moto2 class?

How about some suggestions about who you think were the best 250 riders over the years?

Honestly I dont know. That would happen from Japan and be kept under wraps lest we did not get the job...so it could've happened but I dont know. We have several riders in the US who expressed a lot of interest in going that route, and of course our satelite MotoGP team will field a team so we are not against it.

Mo

Mr. Murray,

ARE YOU TOTALLY NUTS? As a employee of Yamaha USA, you're interested in folowing MotoGP2 next year? I don't know what else to say............unbelievable! I think my heads is going to explode. (no Emoticom required).

Don

Have you got a job with Honda now Mo?



David

I'm so upset I just started a cause on Facebook to SAVE TWO STROKE MOTORCYCLES FROM EXTINCTION My missus is upset too so she suggested it to save me ranting There's some stuff on there about me too if you want to know who Coupe Kawasaki is. Unmasked !!!!


David

The great thing about Yamaha is most of us are racing enthusiasts first...and besides we had no involvement in 250s for several years now anyway. Having seen the bike run and knowing the quality of at least one of the teams (Tech 3), I think Moto2 will produce some great racing. And given the current form in MotoGP, WSB and WSS, it's ok for someone else to fund a class

And no David no Big Red for me.

That's what Bazza said to me in 1979 Look what happened when Lucky won on a Honda


David

Well , Moody and his mate seemed to have forgotten Tetuya Harada so there's one from me for a start.

No , I think you have to go back in time when you needed nerves of steel plus lightening quick reflexes with your clutch hand .
They were mostly , all hero's then , particularly the pilots of the Suzuki 250/4 which Jack A'Hearn named 'Whispering Death ' IIRC
And devolpment was cutting edge , hampered especially by the East German M Z concern under Walter Kaaden by poor metals.

Tetsuya Harada - is it fair to say that his talent was greater than the machinery he had to ride a lot of the time? How good was he in relation to Max Biaggi?

Definitely not "my" era, but I recall quite vividly that he clinched the title in his first worldchampionship year on a bike which was not as beefy as the Hondas. I think his team mate Jochen Schmid lamented a lot about the poor power output. Nevertheless Harada was good enough to clinch the title with that very bike.

Nice subject. I´ll put forward Phil Read. Brilliant was Readie. After him probably Freddie Spencer and Tony Mang, with Korkie Ballington getting a special mention.

JARNO!!

Yes, forgot about him. Maybe you´re right.

while i love the 250's , i'm looking forward to next year's Moto2 class as it will maybe give the modern day frame builders a chance to get back into racing in an affordable way. Maybe.
I love the bikes, but for me its about the racing, i remember the Thunderbike support they had at the GP's a few years back and it was the best racing of the weekend, which is probably why it got dropped.

Yep I agree Phil, the racing will be closer & give more a chance of a win.

Hi Graham, et al,

With due respect to all of your opinions.........."spec machine" racing absolutely ruins the sport. The sport of of motorcyle racing should be about the MACHINE and rider........NOT JUST THE RIDER!

Don

I'm on board with that Don, Nascar Truck Racing may be close but the machinery is ridiculous. You can make anything presentable if you force it down the fans throats. Darts being a prime example even though I love playing. It's all about money and sales promotions.

My favourite 250 rider is Bill Ivy. Sad I never got to see him actually ride and I thnk he would have gone on to much greater things or at least provided the kind of excitement he seemed to attract wherever he went. I missed out on that


David

Strange little man that he is, but John Kocinski was brilliant on the under powered Yamaha

Freddie Spencer, he was just playing with the others the year that he did the 250/500 double.

Mang and Ballington were my first thoughts, but the Kwakas were head and shoulders above the other bikes in the series

Thats why its died Don, the best riders had the VERY expensive factory bikes,(everyone else just had exspensive bikes!) almost all Aprilia!,
The best racing has always been on near identical machines, elbow to elbow stuff, upwards of 4 riders fighting it out, also its about TV, watchers (trackside or Armchair) want a good show of close racing, I/we are not bothered about the latest technical innovation on a bike, but thats where you & David and the others who own & race or have raced, you love the technical side of things probably more than racing itself?
Dont get me wrong, I love the two strokes, but the Bike manufactures dont sell road bike two stroke machines anymore they race only to improve the brand & sell shed loads of R1's, R6's, Fireblades, Gixers, Ninja's etc etc.
The two stroke class has now had its day (125's excepted, still the best racing on the MotoGP programme by miles!!) change has to happen, thats life.

Hi Nigel,
Another very bright star that didn't burn for long was Santiago Herrero.Yes he was on a factory bike,but 2 blokes,1 bike(1 cylinder)and an old Pegaso van,put the rest to shame for a while
HW

Well the reason 250 died is that there are only a handfull of bikes that can win, and if you aint on one there is no point even turning up. Spending 2 seasons tugging round on an underpowered bike to get a shot on one is futile.

I sometimes think that the 'Golden Age' wasnt as golden as we remember, the selected few got the kit while the rest scraped by on what they could beg or borrow...

Well, not really. The TZ 250/350 won lots of GP´s, and a handful of world championship titles (four that I can recall, and if you add Saarinen and Johnny Cecotto 6). You don´t get a more competitive proddy racer than that.
Having said that, I agree with your first paragraph. The GP2 bikes are going back to an affordable GP formula, hence the full entry list. They seem pretty fast, and, like the TZ´s, with a bit of ingenuity and the right chassis, anyone could emerge at the front without too much outlay. It´s just the 2 stroke aspect I will miss.

Hi Gents,

In my opinion racing classes should be limited by engine displacement, regardless of engine "type". After all, that was the way it was for years. If that was the case, the winners would STILL be on Two-Strokes. The current situation may be considered progress by some, however technically, I believe we have gone backwards for the sake of politics.

Don

Its a good topic, and i agree that racing bikes should be just that, racing bikes........ however when you look at WSB you have to say that the dividing line is very thin.
Harking back to the days of 50, 80,125, 250,350 & 500, i reckon that talent got spread thin over too many classes , those that were good on little bikes like Nieto could clean up in two classes , but in reality i think it just made some riders look better than they really were.

I suppose its fair to say that WSB, WSS and even superstock, have taken up the slack as far as riders are concerned , and they provide good racing, because of the equality of the machinery.

Now the Moto2 class may offer the chance for a new talent to emerge, without the need for years of struggling to raise a budget to be the fastest bike with a B kit fitted

Indeed!!

Yes but look what TB did with the Suzuki at Phillip Island after Lil John threw the wobbly at Assen( still funny)


David

Yes, but don´t forget most riders did two classes 50/80´s and 125´s, 250 and 350, or 350 and 500. So the competition was still only really spread out over 3 classes, and there were many more of them. If anything I think there is less competition today, what with there being 5 W/C classes who´s riders don´t cross over, and far smaller fields.

I guess it all comes down to whether you are a stinkwheel or diesel fan in the end...

For me it was always the strokers and no amount of media hype will ever change my allegiance.

FWIW, when I club raced I would never have considered riding a diesel, in those days the only race bike worth considering was a stroker.

The 500 class was the premier and always will be IMHO, the current WSB/WSS/MotoGP classes are just another marketing tool to get Joe Public into the nearest dealers showroom.

Ask Stu Avant/Lambo 1+2/Barry Needle/Ady Godden/Steve Bateman/et al who all raced RG500s and TZs at the time what their preferred mount would have been, 2 stroke or 4...and please don't give me all this sh*t about progress, this was all brought about by the Japanese manufacturers (mainly Honda) to fill their showrooms with sunday rider diesels.

:rant over:

I guess as i've never road raced i only have rights to a partial opinion LOL.. hats off to the guys that did and i enjoyed watching them, i still think motocross died when the factory bikes stopped being proper trick and being 2 stroke, so i know your sentiments entirely.

I agree that as a racer the chance to ride a RG or a TZ against the best is something you cant turn down , but at the end of the day the gap between private and factory kit was just getting too big, and the 250 grid was becoming a lesser class becuase of it.

And at the end of the day, the factories race to sell product, end of, and the closer it is to the guy on the streets bike , the better for them.

There is nothing better than a reverse cylinder TZ250, still in factory white, but as nice as it looks , if its 10 bhp down on the one next to it and no amount of money will get it there, it slants the racing in favour of the bike and not the rider.

Im hoping that the Moto2 class turns out to be a world class version of the Pro-Am series........ banging bars and riding like you stole it ..

Ive often wondered why Valentino(or any other top rider of late) hasn"t at least expressed a desire to compete in two moto gp championships in the same year,i expect they would claim it would be too physically challenging but if i recall correctly didnt Hailwood and many others compete in more than two classes in one day and the races were even longer than today at some circuits.If he attempted that he could really claim to be the greatest, and ive no doubt he"d be the man to do it.It would certainly impress me more than if he wins the championship on a Ducati in the future.
Just a thought
Anyhow long live the 125 strokers

Of course the last person to do this was Freddie Spencer in 1985, when he won the 250 & 500cc World Championships in the same year.

Thats what i mean,im not aware of anyone running in more than one class since 1985.
Good man Freddie

Yes K , when it was the ' Good Old Days ' most riders competed in 2 classes at G P level to raise the maximim start money possible to get to the next meeting , some being ' start money specials ' a good few of the guys having 3 rides , Jim Redman being one IIRC and then I reckon the ' bikes were'nt as ' user - friendly ' as they seem now !!!

Hi PhilG,

A reverse cylinder TZ250 like this?



Don

Exactly my thoughts Mick, I don't have the same buzz, never did when the 4 strokes became the top class, it's the difference between looking at a real Old Master painting rather than a print for me


I don't think they do more than 1 class because they have no choice in it


David