This was the point I was making - I don't believe in tiering drivers.

Me neither, that's why I said it's pointless.

Well you're selecting your evidence with fine skill . Not who wants him or how much they're willing to pay him. There's no rank order but all the top 10 are all the same. "A title-contending car" is all the Brawn was.

Anyway yes we're all just predicting, and we're about to see the proof. Jense is a fine driver, very good even by F1 standards, but for me not an MS/LH/FA/SV class driver. But if he beats or matches Lewis I will change my mind . I just won't think any less of him if he doesn't.

While the drivers are of a very high calibre, there's definitely a range of ability out there, which is why teams vie for some drivers and drop others.

Oh I thought the pun was sarcastically intended.

Apologies for my mis-interpretation

Accepted


You're right about the attention he got later, but all I was trying to say that in the first couple of years he wasn't that popular amongs the F1 teams at all. While Lewis was already well known before he even got into Formula 1. It's a very different first step in their careers.

Yes. He got far too big for his very unexperienced boots. And that was his fault and no one elses.

Thankfully the ego wilted and the boat got sold.

Button detractors, if Schumacher came and said JB is a top class F1 racer, would that change your mind? Would you say Schu lost his mind?

Just curious

Source?

As I recall, Brawn said last year that Michael did think this. Maybe someone can recall when and post a link?

I'd think "why is Schumi saying this?"

Change my mind - no.

Schumacher lost his mind - no, just being polite.

Exactly.

http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-news/s...ton-is-quality/

Thank you. I wonder if this is now appropriate -> ??

http://www.forumula1.net/2009/f1/f1-news/s...ton-is-quality/

Schuey nailed it. When he has a package that is built around him (or that suits his driving style) he is "absolutely top level.”

Shumi is a guy who knows what he's talking about. And it's the first time (besides Murray Walker) that I see someone from the F1 scene that really knows the thing about J Button.

Oops I see someone already found it

Ok. So what I read in this is that he isn't always top level, only when he has a package that suits his style. Right?

It doesn't say that much. Very polite of him though.

Yes, Schumi is a nice guy
He was also the one who once said: Lewis could be the one, who could break his records sometime.

Drawing with old man Rubens doesn't speak volumes does it. The thing that is worrying is that Jense has beaten some team mates and been beaten by others, over the course of a season. On the contrary, not only has Lewis never been beaten by a team mate, over the course of the season, in his relatively short 3 seasons of F1, he's actually never ever been beaten by a team mate in his many years up through the motorsport series from karting to Formula renault to F3 to GP2 to F1. Not only has he beaten his team mates, most times he has destroyed them. We're not talking about no names either..the team mates he has beaten include current F1 drivers Nico Rosberg, Adrian Sutil, Fernando Alonso and Heikki Kovalainen. Only Alonso was able to match Lewis. Oh..you weren't aware that he and Rosberg were team mates? Yes, in 2000 they were team mates in a team with a team principal that Nico had been with for 2 yrs previously and his father Keke had been instrumental in setting up. Interesting. Not only did he beat Rosberg, he beat him by 75 points to 51. Ouch. Let me know if you would like the links.

I like Jense, he's a very good driver. But personally I think he is going to get trounced. Regardless of all the hype about his smooth style. But I might be wrong. Maybe Jense will be the Rafael Nadal to Lewis' Roger Federer. We'll find out in a month

The whole thing about McLaren favouring Lewis is a myth. He's the team's lead driver based on his capabilities and his results which lead the team to lay their hopes on him extracting the most out of the car which the team has spent many dollars and countless hours not to mention the employees' blood, sweat and tears in building. The fact is, Heikki was loved at McLaren. Heikki was a fantastic person. A nice guy who got along famously with all his many team members at McLaren. He liked them and they liked him. But he was just not as fast as Lewis. Doesn't mean Heikki is not fast though. I think everyone will be surprised at his performances at Lotus, taking into account his team mate Trulli's reputation for qualifying and noting that the Lotus will most likely be a backmarker. Heikki was very fast and a really great guy. But he wasn't fast enough and being a really great guy doesn't win races.

Jenson can be disliked by his team members, but if he's the fastest he will come out on top. Alternatively he can be loved by the team, but it won't do him much good if he's not the fastest. McLaren, like most of the teams around, are performance based. Just like the rest of the employees at McLaren, their drivers are no different in that they want only the best.

Maybe your "turtle vs hare" children's bedtime story will come true.

Spot on!

The thing is with this "old man Ruben's" argument is, Schumacher was contesting a title (and losing at the very last race) at the same age that Ruben's is now. Ruben's is also a guy that could match and beat on occasion Michael Schumacher, in the same machinery when permitted by his team. He's no slouch.

Ruben's was on absolute fire in the second half of last season, his win in Monza is evidence enough.

Yes Jenson has been beaten by some teammates - but let's also not forget that Jenson joined the circus in 2000. He's actually only been beaten on three occasions; 2000 (RSC), 2001 (FIS) & 2008 (BAR). Whereas Button has beaten TRU (2002), VIL (2003), SAT (2004, 2005), BAR (2006, 2007 & 2009). It's not a bad record given his decade in the sport. And whilst I'm wary of being perceived to make excuses for Jenson, the 2008 loss to Ruben's was in a complete dog of a car, in which Ruben's basically outscored Jenson to three races to one; Monaco, Canada, Britain to Jenson's Spain. Which just goes to show how bad that car was when both of them failed to score in the same race (albeit Button did aquaplane out of both the Nurburging and Silverstone). Hamilton's only been in this game for three whole seasons and is a mere pup in relation. And Hamilton WILL be beaten eventually, that's natural order. And some of us firmly believe that Hamtilon will be in for a very hard challenge with his teammate this year.

If Jenson get's "trounced" by Hamilton, I would be in a state of shock. I'm sure with the amount of data McLaren have on Button over the years, they know this is not the case, as they wouldn'd have signed him (I'm not a subscriber to this bringing the "number 1" to McLaren regardless. And I'm even more sure Jenson wouldn't have joined them if he thought that was the case. Why would he? He could have easily stayed at Mercedes, picked up the big bucks and had a far easier teammate in Rosberg (all due respect to him, but he's not a WDC like Hamilton).

Stop talking sense.

Seriously, I think Jenson going to MAC shows how brave he is and proves how cowardly the likes of Jackie Stewart and Michael Schumacher were.

Have to agree on this. Too often people mention the age of Rubens but seriously, what is it based on? We see Schumacher making a comeback at 40+, Rubens really isn't that old. The reason some think age affects them do so perhaps after seeing DC leaving the sport after some questionable years, but DC said so himself that he didn't feel the drive he used to anymore. Rubens on the other hand is as motivated as ever these days. That's way more important then anything.

Good points and I don't believe for one second that Jense is a slouch or 2nd tier. But I still think he won't come close to Lewis. Not in any of the 3 yrs he's signed up for. But hey who knows..stranger things have happened.

Well thought out.

And could we please dispel the false notion that Barrichello matched Button during their time together at Honda/Brawn? Button easily got the better of Rubens as a teammate:

For every point that Rubens scored, Button scored 1.36 points. That's not too shabby, and we're talking about a big enough sample size that luck becomes a minor factor. To put that in perspective, Michael scored 1.64 points for every point that Rubens scored during the greatest period for any driver in F1 history. And if you go back before that, Rubens had never been outscored over the course of a season.

The win ratio tells the same story. Button wins 3.5 times for every Rubens win as teammates (smaller sample here) while Michael managed 5.5 wins per Rubens win. Again, not bad at all.

The only category in which Rubens matched Button was in Qualifying, where they were almost exactly even. Hardly a condemnation of Jenson though, since Rubens was known as an excellent qualifier before his Ferrari days (where he failed to match Schumi in this category).

Button couldn't even beat Fisichella, but leaving that aside I'm sure Alonso didn't think twice about, who would come out on top between himself and Hamilton. Neither do I think Kovalainen believed he would be annihilated in such a fashion. I'll give credit to Button for placing his balls on the line by going up against Hamilton. But I honestly believe he has bitten off more than he can chew. Its going to be around the 13-6 scoreline Hamilton trouncing of Button will be. If Hamilton gets ahead early like a 3-1/4-0 by the first European race, Button could be look at a Kovalainen type season.

What did I miss that started all this up again ??

Somebody posted that they support Hammy...

Who says different then?

I doubt there's anyone who thinks it was a tie.

A few tenuous facts there. Trulli despite being new to the team out qualified Button 12-5 and the only reason Button 'beat' him was because Trulli retired 9 times, and almost always ahead of Button. So when you say he 'beat' Trulli its hardly a true representation of the facts. From memory thats how he beat JV as well.

2008 is another bit of a myth because for most of the season Rubens dominated Button, consistently beating him race after race, the only problem was because the car was so bad he didnt score any points, and Button had 3 good races when he cashed in with good points. 3 races don't make a season and don't excuse getting beaten in most of the other races.

I'm not sure why you would be in a state of shock if Hamilton trounced Button, considering we all saw Rubens trounce him for half of last season. Why wouldn't Hamilton trounce him for longer and harder? There is no data that Mclaren could gather on Button to compare him to Hamilton in the same car, so they really don't know other than knowing that Button was about the same speed as a worn out barrichello. Slightly slower in qualifying and slighter faster in races. Hes going to be slaughtered by Hamilton.

Qualifying doesn't say much about who beat who. Button scored way more points that year, and the gap would be even bigger if Briatore didn't order Button to let Trulli by at Monza. There were plenty of races were Button simply outpaced Trulli on his way to scraping points together.

In 2008, I guess you mean 2007? Rubens indeed beat Jenson more often then the other way around. Thing is.. the year after in 2008, it was exactly the opposite. Button appeared stronger most of the races yet Rubens got more points. In that shitbox of a Honda Earth Dreams car, I guess it was just more about luck on the right moments. Overall in those 2 years, they were kinda limited to the car and you shouldn't take the results too seriously.

Besides that, I don't know what season you were watching last year, but I'm not sure about the trouncing from Rubens you mention.

I know I'll be shocked if Lewis trounces Jenson. Button is simply too good for that. Bringing up his early years as an unprepared 20-year old (which stands in great contrast to Lewis' preparations for the sport) in a horrible Benetton hardly has any significance to today.

The reality is that Button's race pace is excellent. Not good, not very good... excellent. Rubens was never able to just blow him away in a straight fight when they were together at Honda/Brawn. Only traffic could create any gap between them when Barrichello was in front. The same was true of Sato and Villeneuve. But Button was able to drive away from those teammates often. If Button is able to get the McLaren set up as he likes, I just don't see how Lewis will be able to "trounce" him. He could beat him, but I don't see any big margins on the horizon. And Button's consistent points gathering means that it will be tough for Hamilton to beat him in that category as well, never mind build up a big gap.

Some would argue that qualifying is where Lewis will create his gap. Fair enough, but I suspect the margin here will be much smaller than some think as well. Button is underrated in this area as well, mainly based on being matched by Rubens. But Barrichello was considered an ace in this area before his time against Michael, whose qualifying statistics are ridiculously good.

As a Button fan I do worry, the traits Button have and which are expected to be his addvantage are shared by Alonso. Such as super consistency... Lewis easily matched and beat Alonso.

Way more points? It was 14-9 in favor of Button despite Trulli dnfing 9 times and losing a couple of 4th places in the process. In reality Trulli dominated Button in 2002. Im not sure of what races button simply outpaced Trulli but it obviously was not often.




That sort of sounds like 2 evenly matched drivers who take turns at beating each other to me doesn't it? How is a guy who was in a dogfight with Rubens barrichello for most of their time together going to take it a driver like Hamilton? Maybe in some alternative universe but not this one.



From silverstone last year, Rubens outqualified Button in almost every race and Button didnt beat him in a single race on merit from that point apart from Hungary. Sounds like domination to me. Button is a good driver but Hamilton is far better than just good. His main problem will be that his weakness is qualifying and its very hard to beat someone these days if you consistently start behind them.

Were you also shocked when Rubens dominated Button for the last 10 races of 2009?

That's 14-9 in favor despite team orders in Monza. Without that it would be 15-8. It's not like Trulli was the only one retiring from races. Plus not all of them were mechanical. In your perfect world, Trulli dominated indeed. But he didn't. Button won.



It doesn't sort of sound like that, it was like that in 2007-2008. What does that mean for the future? Let's find out...


What about the Nurburgring, Hungary, Singapore, Interlagos and Abu Dhabi?
That Rubens can't keep parts of his car together by driving into other cars isn't really Button's problem, is it?
Since Silverstone Rubens scored a whooping 36 points versus Button's...... 31.
Please don't use words like domination in these sentences.. it looks really sad.
Yes Rubens did well to win Valencia. But for the rest, he didn't show anything special compared to Button.
In most of the races Button showed he had way better pace.

Let's wait and see when the season start. Imagine Lewis won't be able to dominate Button. Obviously, you will then tell me Jarno and Rubens are better than Lewis, won't you?

You must remember that McLaren also put in a call to Rubens to be Hamilton's teammate (http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/02022010/23/barrichello-warns-rosberg-expect-tough-time.html) so it doesn't look like Button was their only/main target.

I also think Jenson wasn't left with much choice after Brawn and Mercedes showed no enthusiasm to lock him down to a contract. What does that say about Jenson, that your team isn't rushing to tie you into a long term contract after you had just won the championship? McLaren couldn't get the 5-year contract for Hamilton drawn up fast enough after the 2007 season. McLaren were the only top team interested in Button (as far as I'm aware) so Button would have jumped at the chance. I'm still of the mind (as are some ex-drivers like Irvine, and other fans) that Button knew it would be much more embarrassing to be beat by Rosberg than by Hamilton, and I wouldn't know who to put my money on between those two (Button or Rosberg).

Saying all that, we still don't know who will come out on top, but more people seem to think Lewis will than Jenson.

Phew, at least you didn't mention Button's "silky smooth driving style" and Hamilton's tendency to "chew his tyres".

.
Well, Sir Frank Williams said he would "bite his hand off" to get Button back.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/...ld-championship

I was quite shocked to learn that you thought Barrichello dominated Button for the last 10 races of the 2009 season I must say. Rubens beat Jenson 6 times in the last 10 in fact. Sure he was more dominant overall in the second half but taking all events into consideration Button beat Rubens 11 times out of the 17 rounds.. Thats pretty impressive even if he had a six round dip in performance.

Button 11
Barrichello 6

As much as i'd like to believe that Button will hold his own against Lewis, in reality I just cant see it happening!

Button will be found wanting this season and will be shown up by Lewis for what he is, a good driver, nothing more and nothing less.

I firmly believe Lewis will out-qualify, out-race & out-pace Button in the vast majority of races in 2010, which, in all honesty is a shame, as Button is a Brit and I like to see all the Brits doing well, moving to McLaren was a bad move for Button if you ask me, but if the media are to be believed, th£n its obvious why h£'s gon£ th£r£

I thought the media were widely reporting he'd taken a pay cut?

Which 6?

Was Button not going to be on more £ if he'd signed an extension at Brawn ? That's my understanding anyway

fair enough, Button probably thinks the same thing, "most of my teammates Sato, Barri. and co have not being able to consistently outpace me in the race anytime, who does Lewis think he is..."

personally, I think he is in for a shock... most people are saying Lewis advantage will only be in qualy, we shall see... I just cant see Button outpacing Lewis in more than 10% of the races, while I can easily see Lewis doing otherwise the rest of the time. Lewis is just too intense a driver even in race pace. Only advantage I can see for Button is he naturally has a smooth style like we've mentioned til death, so if the Mclaren chews his tires a lot he may have a (slight) advantage there.

Wont count for much though, if he is already 2 cars behind when graining occurs.

In terms of consistency, I have a sneaky feeling we are going to see 07 consistency and more from Hamilton this season especially if this 25 is as solid a car as I think it might be.

cant wait...

Yeah me too. Lewis has great concentration.

Jense will be on a knife edge trying to find a setup that gives him warm tyres for Q and cool tyres through the race. Lewis can vary his corner entries to warm or cool his tyres to suit. Plus if there's graining he's a lot better equipped to drive through it.

I wouldn't be surprised to see Lewis' tyres lasting better than Jenson's. That's what Heikki found...