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mstar
Feb 17 2010, 22:19
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 17 2010, 16:54) *
A few tenuous facts there. Trulli despite being new to the team out qualified Button 12-5 and the only reason Button 'beat' him was because Trulli retired 9 times, and almost always ahead of Button.


nope not always button was most time quicker in the race then trulli no matter where he was. go and check yourself wave.gif rae pace was buttons advantage even pat symonds commented
mstar
Feb 17 2010, 22:22
QUOTE (Colinmcc @ Feb 17 2010, 21:38) *
Was Button not going to be on more £ if he'd signed an extension at Brawn ? That's my understanding anyway


yep confirmed by nick fry and ross. more basic salary AND personal sponsorship he can have on his overalls which dwalf the salary he is getting at mclaren
KeefG
Feb 17 2010, 22:34
QUOTE (mstar @ Feb 17 2010, 22:22) *
yep confirmed by nick fry and ross. more basic salary AND personal sponsorship he can have on his overalls which dwalf the salary he is getting at mclaren


I read the exact opposite! Cant remember where, but I read that his basic was the same but his sponsorship was to be an awful lot more.

I stand corrected if i'm wrong though...
mclarensmps
Feb 17 2010, 23:07
QUOTE (Nottub @ Feb 17 2010, 08:05) *
Button detractors, if Schumacher came and said JB is a top class F1 racer, would that change your mind? Would you say Schu lost his mind?

Just curious lol.gif


I've never believed a word Schumacher has ever said in his entire F1 career...
Dalton007
Feb 18 2010, 08:11
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 17 2010, 17:37) *
Way more points? It was 14-9 in favor of Button despite Trulli dnfing 9 times and losing a couple of 4th places in the process. In reality Trulli dominated Button in 2002. Im not sure of what races button simply outpaced Trulli but it obviously was not often.




That sort of sounds like 2 evenly matched drivers who take turns at beating each other to me doesn't it? How is a guy who was in a dogfight with Rubens barrichello for most of their time together going to take it a driver like Hamilton? Maybe in some alternative universe but not this one.



From silverstone last year, Rubens outqualified Button in almost every race and Button didnt beat him in a single race on merit from that point apart from Hungary. Sounds like domination to me. Button is a good driver but Hamilton is far better than just good. His main problem will be that his weakness is qualifying and its very hard to beat someone these days if you consistently start behind them.


Yes, in quali JB became conservative and bottled it, but in the races JB dominated RB - check the laptimes, Jenson was faster, much faster and consistent. Even Brawn said that Jenson's race pace was exemplary. I guess some folks here see bunnies in the clouds.
tifosiMac
Feb 18 2010, 08:15
QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 17 2010, 21:37) *
Which 6?

I was a figure out on my previous post apologies for that, but then again you probably didn't notice. smile.gif

(Red indicating where one finished in front of the other.)
JB GBR-6, GER-5, HUN-7, EUR-7, BEL-dnf, ITA-2, SIN-5, JPN-8, BRA-5, ABU-3

RB GBR-3, GER-6, HUN-10, EUR-1, BEL-7, ITA-1, SIN-6, JPN-7, BRA-8, ABU-4

In the last 10 races of the 2009 season Rubens finished ahead of Button 5 times to Button's 5. It was 50/50 in the second half of the season but Rubens managed to win twice which makes him stand out alittle more as the dominant driver. smile.gif
Lights
Feb 18 2010, 08:18
QUOTE (tifosiMac @ Feb 18 2010, 09:15) *
(Red indicating where one finished in front of the other.)
JB GBR-6, GER-5, HUN-7, EUR-7, BEL-dnf, ITA-2, SIN-5, JPN-8, BRA-5, ABU-3

RB GBR-3, GER-6, HUN-10, EUR-1, BEL-7, ITA-1, SIN-6, JPN-7, BRA-8, ABU-4

In the last 10 races of the 2009 season Rubens finished ahead of Button 6 times to Button's 4.

roflmao.gif

Thanks for the explanations with colors etc.

Now check the amount again. wink.gif
tifosiMac
Feb 18 2010, 08:23
QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 18 2010, 08:18) *
roflmao.gif

Thanks for the explanations with colors etc.

Now check the amount again.wink.gif

I have done, by the way why did you not point that out originally? confused.gif
jimrad
Feb 18 2010, 08:28
QUOTE (Dalton007 @ Feb 18 2010, 08:11) *
Yes, in quali JB became conservative and bottled it, but in the races JB dominated RB - check the laptimes, Jenson was faster, much faster and consistent. Even Brawn said that Jenson's race pace was exemplary. I guess some folks here see bunnies in the clouds.



I don't know if he was faster, you haven't shown any evidence doe that. I do know he was almost always behind Trulli so it doesn't really matter if he was faster in the races, what matters is how many times he beat Trulli on merit. Barely ever.
Dalton007
Feb 18 2010, 08:33
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 18 2010, 08:28) *
I don't know if he was faster, you haven't shown any evidence doe that. I do know he was almost always behind Trulli so it doesn't really matter if he was faster in the races, what matters is how many times he beat Trulli on merit. Barely ever.


I'm not discussing 2002, I'm talking about 2009, and I don't think Jenson is the greatest driver ever.
Lights
Feb 18 2010, 08:35
QUOTE (tifosiMac @ Feb 18 2010, 09:23) *
I have done, by the way why did you not point that out originally? confused.gif

As it was possible you counted a race for Rubens even though he finished behind Jenson for whatever reason. I dunno. smile.gif

His results in those 10 races were slightly better yeah, mainly because of 1 race...

But dominant? Forget it. And yes it was 50/50 in the second half, but you shouldn't forget it was 100/0 in the first half.
jimrad
Feb 18 2010, 08:40
QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 17 2010, 18:09) *
That's 14-9 in favor despite team orders in Monza. Without that it would be 15-8. It's not like Trulli was the only one retiring from races. Plus not all of them were mechanical. In your perfect world, Trulli dominated indeed. But he didn't. Button won.


From memory at Monza trulli's car failed in qualifying and he started down the grid but was flying and was something like 1 second a lap faster than Button.

QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 17 2010, 18:09) *
What about the Nurburgring, Hungary, Singapore, Interlagos and Abu Dhabi?
That Rubens can't keep parts of his car together by driving into other cars isn't really Button's problem, is it?
Since Silverstone Rubens scored a whooping 36 points versus Button's...... 31.
Please don't use words like domination in these sentences.. it looks really sad.
Yes Rubens did well to win Valencia. But for the rest, he didn't show anything special compared to Button.
In most of the races Button showed he had way better pace.


The only reason Button beat Rubens at Singapore was because Rubens had a 5 grid gearbox penalty. And at Brazil only because Rubens tire was cut from Hamilton overtaking him. So the tally was really 7-3 in the final 10 races.

QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 17 2010, 18:09) *
Let's wait and see when the season start. Imagine Lewis won't be able to dominate Button. Obviously, you will then tell me Jarno and Rubens are better than Lewis, won't you?


I don't need to imagine anything because I already know whats going to happen based on my knowledge of the sport. Its like saying imagine if Michael couldn't dominate Rubens Barrichello when they were team mates. Its just not possible.
ForeverF1
Feb 18 2010, 08:44
Gentlemen, the topic is Jenson vs Lewis. Please do try and stay on topic.
tifosiMac
Feb 18 2010, 08:48
QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 18 2010, 08:35) *
As it was possible you counted a race for Rubens even though he finished behind Jenson for whatever reason. I dunno. smile.gif

His results in those 10 races were slightly better yeah, mainly because of 1 race...

But dominant? Forget it. And yes it was 50/50 in the second half, but you shouldn't forget it was 100/0 in the first half.

I'm not forgetting anything mate thats why in my original post I made clear that Button was very dominant over the course of the season when you look at all rounds. Out of the 17 rounds Button finished 12 times ahead of Rubens, simple as that and thats an impressive figure.

It looks like we are both suggesting Button was the dominant force and maybe you should laugh at the Button detractors rather than someone who has the same respect for Button as you do. smile.gif
tifosiMac
Feb 18 2010, 08:51
I do think Button will be beat Lewis on occassion this season but I think overall Lewis will be leading in the points come the end. Its a win, win situation for me anyway.. smile.gif
Lights
Feb 18 2010, 08:54
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 18 2010, 09:40) *
The only reason Button beat Rubens at Singapore was because Rubens had a 5 grid gearbox penalty. And at Brazil only because Rubens tire was cut from Hamilton overtaking him. So the tally was really 7-3 in the final 10 races.

Well yeah but then again, it's really 5-5 in the final 10 races. In Singapore Rubens still started infront of Jenson, yet Jenson managed to beat him. And Rubens should simply have been more careful while being overtaken. It wasn't Hamilton's fault at all. Unlike Spa, where Grosjean hit Jenson of. It could have been 6-4 for Jenson indeed.
Lights
Feb 18 2010, 09:02
QUOTE (tifosiMac @ Feb 18 2010, 09:48) *
I'm not forgetting anything mate thats why in my original post I made clear that Button was very dominant over the course of the season when you look at all rounds. Out of the 17 rounds Button finished 12 times ahead of Rubens, simple as that and thats an impressive figure.

It looks like we are both suggesting Button was the dominant force and maybe you should laugh at the Button detractors rather than someone who has the same respect for Button as you do. smile.gif

I didn't mean to laugh at you, just at the situation of you showing nice and all who was ahead at what race and I was just surprised you didn't see the mistake yourself after my question about it.

I doubt they really are 'Button detractors'. Obviously, they're just unaware of the reality.
chrcoluk
Feb 18 2010, 09:02

Unless Button gets favoured at mclaren then I see hamilton beating him consistently. The question in my mind at the moment is will Button do better than kovi was able to.
tifosiMac
Feb 18 2010, 09:37
QUOTE (chrcoluk @ Feb 18 2010, 09:02) *
Unless Button gets favoured at mclaren then I see hamilton beating him consistently. The question in my mind at the moment is will Button do better than kovi was able to.

I don't think Mclaren will be favouring one over the other in this case. Whitmarsh opperates very differently to Dennis and the days of different fuel strategies are gone. Both Lewis and Jenson are good qualifiers, although I think Lewis edges Jenson slightly in this area. With cars going great distances on one set of tyres as demonstrated by Ferrari and Mclaren in testing, I think the qualifying position is going to be the major factor this season. Jenson has always been the best at conserving his tyres, where Lewis has always been better at having raw pace so its going to be difficult to judge. Then again F1 drivers are expected to be able to adjust driving styles accordingly so Lewis maybe able to surprise us with a new conservative approach. I know I want to see a British WDC at the end of the season, and this season can't come quickly enough.. smile.gif
Brandz07
Feb 18 2010, 10:36
personally i dont think they will need to deliberately favour a driver, lewis will beat jenson consistantly, be in a title fight with another driver and the team will have no choice but too favour him :/
MinT
Feb 18 2010, 18:44
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 18 2010, 08:40) *
The only reason Button beat Rubens at Singapore was because Rubens had a 5 grid gearbox penalty. And at Brazil only because Rubens tire was cut from Hamilton overtaking him. So the tally was really 7-3 in the final 10 races.


Oh come on - woulda, coulda, shoulda.

You cant just pick out events that favour your point - what about Spa - what if Jenson hadnt been punted off by Crashjean, squeezed by Alonso in Valencia etc etc

Geting through the season despite mechanical issues, on track bumps and spins etc is all part of motor sport.

What if the season was cancelled after the first race ? - JB would still be champion.
Demo.
Feb 18 2010, 18:58
QUOTE (Lights @ Feb 17 2010, 12:10) *
I don't rate any driver as the best. There isn't any best driver. Everybody can be beaten.



roflmao.gif
but some get beaten more often than others
Clatter
Feb 18 2010, 19:04
QUOTE (jimrad @ Feb 18 2010, 08:40) *
The only reason Button beat Rubens at Singapore was because Rubens had a 5 grid gearbox penalty


Rubens still started ahead of Button, yet finished behind. That happened because he was slower not because of the penalty.
timba
Feb 18 2010, 19:22
QUOTE
The only reason Button beat Rubens at Singapore was because Rubens had a 5 grid gearbox penalty


A penalty he received because of crashing. redface.gif
Lights
Feb 18 2010, 20:38
QUOTE (Demo. @ Feb 18 2010, 19:58) *
roflmao.gif
but some get beaten more often than others

And some have worse cars more often than others.
Dalton007
Feb 19 2010, 07:57
Check out last year's laptimes from the FIA website for every lap from every race and you'll see the evidence that Jenson was the fastest.
timba
Feb 19 2010, 10:35
Jenson has already bettered Hamilton's time for the entire test, and by quite a margin!! clap.gif
Lights
Feb 19 2010, 10:39
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 19 2010, 11:35) *
Jenson has already bettered Hamilton's time for the entire test, and by quite a margin!! clap.gif

I'm still reasonably new here but is it worth it to tell you the weather improved and it's just testing?
Buttoneer
Feb 19 2010, 10:47
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 19 2010, 10:35) *
Jenson has already bettered Hamilton's time for the entire test, and by quite a margin!! clap.gif

He's still a long way short of Hamilton's best from last week so not really clappy cheery stuff is it?
timba
Feb 19 2010, 10:53
QUOTE (Buttoneer @ Feb 19 2010, 10:47) *
He's still a long way short of Hamilton's best from last week so not really clappy cheery stuff is it?


Now that'd be an unfair comparison. The temperature was actually warmer on Wednesday at this point than it is today. Let's see what Jenson does later on, he looks up for it up.gif
Buttoneer
Feb 19 2010, 10:53
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 19 2010, 10:53) *
Now that'd be an unfair comparison.

Indeed so. Much like yours.
mstar
Feb 19 2010, 21:05
come on jamesss!
GoonerLewis
Feb 19 2010, 21:12
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 19 2010, 11:35) *
Jenson has already bettered Hamilton's time for the entire test, and by quite a margin!! clap.gif


I think track conditions may have something to do with that. Jenson is still well off Lewis's best time but i think tomorrow we should be times improving even more.

I think Jenson is going to be close to Lewis this season but he won't beat him. Lewis is a much better in qualifying which is going to be vital this year and his race pace is better than Jensons, oh and overtaking. Lewis did the most overtakes last season and i think he will this season also.

Should be fun.
Clatter
Feb 19 2010, 21:15
QUOTE (GoonerLewis @ Feb 19 2010, 21:12) *
Lewis did the most overtakes last season and i think he will this season also.

Should be fun.


I hope not. It's a stupid statistic, and only happened because he was in the mid/back field so much. Someone in a front running car should never top the overtakes.

Owen
Feb 19 2010, 21:15
As a team fan I'm loving the fact that Jense appears to be bringing a more significant contribution (in terms of technical feedback) to the team. That will help Button and Lewis.
GoonerLewis
Feb 19 2010, 21:20
QUOTE (Clatter @ Feb 19 2010, 21:15) *
I hope not. It's a stupid statistic, and only happened because he was in the mid/back field so much. Someone in a front running car should never top the overtakes.


Who had the most overtakes in 2007, 2008?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????//
tkulla
Feb 19 2010, 21:47
QUOTE (Clatter @ Feb 19 2010, 22:15) *
I hope not. It's a stupid statistic, and only happened because he was in the mid/back field so much. Someone in a front running car should never top the overtakes.



When it comes to overtaking, I try to look for precision and good decision making. With no refueling, quality passing maneuvers will be vital this year. That's good news for McLaren, since both their drivers are strong in this area. That said, I'm looking forward to the first side-by-side battle between Lewis and Michael.
jjcale
Feb 20 2010, 11:52
QUOTE (Owen @ Feb 19 2010, 21:15) *
As a team fan I'm loving the fact that Jense appears to be bringing a more significant contribution (in terms of technical feedback) to the team. That will help Button and Lewis.


As a team fan, I cant see any evidence of this...

I was here for their debrief of yesterday's running. But I have all the data and it's always interesting to look at a new team-mate's data, and interesting to see how they set a car up. So we're already learning from each other because we have a wealth of experience. For example when I have a test day I'll change something on the car and he'll test that, and vice versa. We trust each other's opinions.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81608
THE "driverider"
Feb 20 2010, 17:30
Seems Jenson is coping very well at McLaren, anyone still think he cannot challenge in a McLaren?
pspidey
Feb 20 2010, 18:15
QUOTE (THE @ Feb 20 2010, 12:30) *
Seems Jenson is coping very well at McLaren, anyone still think he cannot challenge in a McLaren?


So far, I'd say jenson has done well. Better than I'd expected. On the other hand the more I've watched testing the *more* confused I've got as far as who is competitive - which teams etc.

Looks to me like mclaren may unfortunately be behind both red bull and Ferrari. Particularly as the Ferrari seem to manage it's tires over long runs better than anyone else.

As far as jenson v Lewis it's still virtually impossible to tell - we've not yet seen them on track together at the same time, with the same conditions, and of course during testing, they are improving at minimum the base setup, every day.

So, you can't really come to a conclusion.

Personally, I still think Lewis will have the measure of jenson over a season. Don't think it will harm jensons reputation though since I think it will be close. But who knows? At this point it's serious crystal ball gazing
undersquare
Feb 20 2010, 18:28
QUOTE (THE @ Feb 20 2010, 17:30) *
Seems Jenson is coping very well at McLaren, anyone still think he cannot challenge in a McLaren?


Coping with the team, yes, they've really made him welcome.

We have yet to see about coping with Hammy.

I have a suspicion we're about to find out how much McLaren have been depending on Lewis these last 2 years.
timba
Feb 20 2010, 18:35
Jenson seems to be coping just fine. He's obviosuly had chances to compare the data to Hamilton, and I don't think he'd be as chirpy and motivated if those comparisons showed anything other than good news. OTOH Hamilton's edgy interview last week; or his new-found indifference to shaving seem to be quite telling. Jenson's speed has likely made a strong impact inside the team cool.gif
Guizotia
Feb 20 2010, 19:00
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 20 2010, 18:35) *
Jenson seems to be coping just fine. He's obviosuly had chances to compare the data to Hamilton, and I don't think he'd be as chirpy and motivated if those comparisons showed anything other than good news. OTOH Hamilton's edgy interview last week; or his new-found indifference to shaving seem to be quite telling. Jenson's speed has likely made a strong impact inside the team cool.gif


Remember that Lewis lived through last year with the 24. Lewis will want a winning car this year, more than any year, so he won't be saying "yeah the car is great, we don't need to do any more". At best he will say "the car is pretty good, but we need to do more" because he will want to maintain pressure on the people back at the MTC.
Bonaventura
Feb 20 2010, 19:16
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 20 2010, 19:35) *
Jenson seems to be coping just fine. He's obviosuly had chances to compare the data to Hamilton, and I don't think he'd be as chirpy and motivated if those comparisons showed anything other than good news. OTOH Hamilton's edgy interview last week; or his new-found indifference to shaving seem to be quite telling. Jenson's speed has likely made a strong impact inside the team cool.gif

But not to the better purely visual
I don't like scruffy men
pspidey
Feb 20 2010, 21:19
QUOTE (timba @ Feb 20 2010, 13:35) *
Jenson seems to be coping just fine. He's obviosuly had chances to compare the data to Hamilton, and I don't think he'd be as chirpy and motivated if those comparisons showed anything other than good news. OTOH Hamilton's edgy interview last week; or his new-found indifference to shaving seem to be quite telling. Jenson's speed has likely made a strong impact inside the team cool.gif


roflmao.gif I guess if he grows a beard, he's suicidal. All of course because of Button's speed.

Great logic. drunk.gif

I mean, it's not like Lewis has ever had to race against a competitive world champion before.
Calorus
Feb 21 2010, 06:50
It's frustrating to say this, because there's no way to word it without sounding biased or partial, which I'm not. But Button looks like he's about to get his arse handed to him on a plate.

The indication for me was him barely pipping the Renault, whilst the Ferrari and Mercedes felt no need to even get involved.

I think Alonso is looking very good for this season - but that Hamilton, Schumacher and Vettel may have some points to make. Massa is the only '2nd' driver likely to make a dent. But Button will not be able to afford half a season of bad drives, even if McLaren produce the best car on the grid, because Hamilton seems to be able to confine himself to two major brain fades a season. If he can keep those in check then he's in a scrap with 2 Germans and a Spaniard.
Bloggsworth
Feb 21 2010, 09:56
QUOTE (Calorus @ Feb 21 2010, 06:50) *
It's frustrating to say this, because there's no way to word it without sounding biased or partial, which I'm not. But Button looks like he's about to get his arse handed to him on a plate.

The indication for me was him barely pipping the Renault, whilst the Ferrari and Mercedes felt no need to even get involved.

I think Alonso is looking very good for this season - but that Hamilton, Schumacher and Vettel may have some points to make. Massa is the only '2nd' driver likely to make a dent. But Button will not be able to afford half a season of bad drives, even if McLaren produce the best car on the grid, because Hamilton seems to be able to confine himself to two major brain fades a season. If he can keep those in check then he's in a scrap with 2 Germans and a Spaniard.



I take it you have a handy implement for removing egg from your face............
Calorus
Feb 21 2010, 11:23
QUOTE (Bloggsworth @ Feb 21 2010, 10:56) *
I take it you have a handy implement for removing egg from your face............


I shall leave you and your wooden spoon in peace, sir. I think you may have a crucial ingredient for a Lemon Meringue Pie...
stuckinsecond
Feb 21 2010, 12:01
QUOTE (GoonerLewis @ Feb 20 2010, 05:12) *
I think track conditions may have something to do with that. Jenson is still well off Lewis's best time but i think tomorrow we should be times improving even more.

I think Jenson is going to be close to Lewis this season but he won't beat him. Lewis is a much better in qualifying which is going to be vital this year and his race pace is better than Jensons, oh and overtaking. Lewis did the most overtakes last season and i think he will this season also.

Should be fun.


Whilst I think Lewis is the faster driver and better overtaker, Jenson impressed greatly impressed me with his overtaking last year. He made some crucial overtakes and they weren't easy ones either. But yes, Lewis is in another class with overtaking and whilst I think both Jenson and Lewis will improve further as their career progresses, it's fair to say that due to the span of their respective careers so far, Lewis has had less time than Jenson to hone his skills at this top level so he's probably going to improve even more than Jenson as the years progress. Which is a pretty scary thought considering the already high baseline he's at.
nawz
Feb 21 2010, 12:04
Really!? Hamilton will eat jenson! On track, off track, and anywhere!
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