http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/formel1-...,60,6239,233865
http://www.motorsport-magazin.com/formel1-...,60,6239,234511

I disagree. An illustration of his carreer form so far would look something like:


IE steady decline. No longer can anyone expect Hamilton to settle for consistent podiums, remember his mini-run of 16 points in 5 races in a winning car? Being left behind in Q1 or getting lapped most races was another. Even poor Kovalainen could manage better sometimes. Lewis' became more erratic, and his rain form seems to have disappeared altogether.

Jenson's career has been completely contrasting. A young diamond in the rough turned to all-round driver, with the ability to perform with extreme consistency. His run of 7 races last year were as good as anyone's through F1 history. That's the sort of improvement Jenson has gone through, and we should expect more this year

Dude...

You have a serious man-crush on JB...

I'm gonna be supporting him 100% now he's a McLaren driver, but I'm a little worried about your love for him. It's scary.

I'm not sure he is a Jenson fan actually

2009 is considered by most as one of Lewis' best seasons and has quietened those who previously questioned his ability in a poor car. In the second half of the season, Lewis scored more points than any-other-driver-on-the-grid, including Button, Barrichello, Vettel and Webber in a McLaren that started off the season fundamentally flawed and slowly improved into what no one considered higher than the 3rd best car on the grid.

Make no mistake, this Jenson vs Lewis thing will ride entirely on how much Jenson can step up to the plate to meet the challenge of a devastating racer like Lewis. Downplaying Lewis' capabilities and potential may suit the fantasies of an internet fanboy but it won't help Jenson one bit. Jenson is a capable driver but this will be the toughest challenge he will face. Don't let your hopes cloud reality. Your simplistic graph is almost as laughable as the vast majority of your posts.

I just hope that Button won't do anything stupid that will harm the team like what Alonso did after realising the fact that Lewis is not just some driver.

That car was far from "poor" in "the 2nd half of the season". His earlier performances quietened only his supporters. 5 races without points, mostly unimpressive in Qualy and getting lapped. No one can perform miracles - even your God Lewis.

Furthermore, you haven't adressed the other claims. Namely Lewis' erratic form, increased crashes, or wet weather performances. Where is his remarkable early 07 consistency? When was his last impressive wet race? Certainly not last year.

Did you forget that he was almost on podium if not for the yellow flag mess with Trulli?

You're right. Putting aside the post-race dishonesty for a moment, that one result totally condradicts everyhing I've said. You're completely right. Lewis' almost-podium made him as consistant as in 2007. Duh....

Actually, I'd be more worried about Lewis reacting badly if he's the one struggling to keep pace. After all, he hasn't experience that kind of pressure before (there was no pressure on him in 2007 because of his rookie status).

And before you say that it's not likely - remember the form Button showed to start last year. He was nearly perfect during that stretch, and if he is able to begin the season at that level it will be very tough for Lewis to match him. Of course, that would require him to feel totally confident in the car and team, but if he somehow manages it Lewis could react badly. Personally I think he's matured since 2007 and would be able to deal with it and keep moving forward.

That about sums it up so far. I do think Jenson will be a great rear-gunner for Lewis though. Well I hope.

Well he is as consistent last year as Jenson in the second half of 2009, duh...

You mean Lewis scored points in all 11 races, but one where got punted off the track by some rookie? That's impressive.

There's nothing to address as you haven't raised anything but BS. His earlier performances - oh yes good that you bring up the on-track podium performance he achieved in the first race in Australia in an utter dog of a car. I do however agree with one thing you've said. That is, the car was not poor in the 2nd half of the season. But if you actually take off those silly looking goggles and read my post properly, you will notice I did say that car was, in the second half of the season, not considered any higher than 3rd best car on the grid. 2 wins and more points than 4 other drivers in the best and second best cars on the grid is pretty amazing in anyone's books. If you truly think that wide-bodied aero compromised McLaren, even in the 2nd half of the season, was actually better than either the Red Bull or the Brawn, then I'm afraid there is no help for you. I'm sure that in time you'll realise that if you were truly a fan of Jenson, you wouldn't demean his performances by putting Lewis down. Because if Lewis does annihilate Jenson, then you will have to swallow the fact that your driver was beaten by another who you consider as average and getting worse. Good luck with that though. In your reply or in future posts, if you do something different and actually say something that makes a semblance of sense, then I'll be happy to have further discussions. Otherwise please don't be offended if I don't bother to reply to what I now consider as trolling posts.

That's a good point. Lewis has never been beaten by his team mate in his entire motorsport career so what you say is definitely a possibility should he be beaten by Jenson. Of course I would expect Lewis to push himself even harder as I can't imagine he hasn't been challenged for pace by team mates before e.g Rosberg. But of course those instances Lewis has always come out on top so it would be interesting if he comes across a team mate that is faster and one he can't match for pace even if he pushes himself. I doubt this will occur against Jenson, but it is a possibility and I agree with you that I think the new experience will be a significant mental challenge for him to accept and overcome.

While the McLaren may not have been the "best" car during the second half of the season, it was certainly in the ballpark. And KERS was a big advantage in some ways. Brawn and Red Bull would often qualify heavier than they would have liked because they were concerned about being overtaken at the start. It was also a huge benefit in attacking and defending against cars of similar pace. Plus being out of the championship race allows a driver to be very aggressive in strategy and tactics.

face it, lewis is better than jenson, end of.

Lewis is a good passer no doubt, but i don't think he has ever had the most in one year, it's a sily stat anyway, too many variables...but here you go anyway.

2007 - Massa - 22 passes
2008 - Kova - 31
2009 i can't find any firm data from the same source, but IIRC it was Button not Lewis..

Really - its all been said now hasnt it.

The first race cant come soon enough.

Good luck to both McLaren drivers.

Don't bother with this guy. He's always bashed Lewis and always will. Don't waste your time.

And the stats about "passes" is ridiculous. Massa and Kovalainen were able to pass so many cars because of their bad starting position (relative to their cars' performance).

I think this concern is utterly unfounded.
Have you ever seen Lewis reacting badly?
I think he is one of the fairest drivers and remains true to his principles:
"While people say winning is everything to them, I would say that winning is everything to me, but not beyond my values. I want to win the right way: I wouldn't drive someone off the track" ( Lewis Hamilton, jan 2010)

Even when he was really dashed to the ground after Liegate,
and was criticized by all sides, he has remained calm, rose up again and moved on, stronger than before.

What I'm saying is that if one of them is likely to react badly to being beaten, it's Lewis. I predict they'll work well together and be closely matched such that neither of them will feel the need for antics. It's much more likely that fireworks will come from the Ferrari drivers.

I think it was quite easy to see Lewis was outperforming the car for most of the season, only really ever seen Button shine when his car has been good

Lewis has never been beat by a teammate, Button has

...yes Jenson was consistent beginning of 09 in a car that started out about half a second quicker than the rest... a bumbling teammate at that point, Rubens stalling on the grid in Aus, bad strategy Spain and all sorts of other rubbish also made Jenson look really good

frankly if it was Lewis or Alonso or even Kimi in the other Brawn, there is no evidence that Jenson's run might have not just been mostly rear-gunner for a consistent Brawn 1-2.

Jenson is a solid driver, but I'm just not convinced in his outright speed like some of those guys mentioned. I dont see him dominating any of those in qualy and races in same car like you are assuming even with his beg. 09 form. I seriously cant wait til the season starts and a set of us gets found out

The coming Barcelona tests where its all about performance might give us a little hint

09 was Lewis

Heikki wasnt able to pass many cars using the KERS its still hard to keep with a car that has poor downforce

And what I say, none of them is likely to react badly.
Even if Lewis would be beaten.

i dont think you should judge on overtakes, the best possible situation a driver could have is too be at the front for the whole of every race in the reason, overtaking record would be '0', its not a good way to judge drivers.

Some overtakes are important and difficult, others are easy or might not even be needed because of strategy for example. Ofcourse it's important to be able to overtake well, but you can't judge them at all. The situation, speed difference between the two cars, the particular track, the weather etc. have such an impact on the overtake itself aswell which makes it as impossible to judge the quality of an overtake, let alone the overall quality of overtaking of a certain driver, as to rank the teams in the correct order of performance during winter testing.

agreed that overtakes are important and difficult, but i was referring to the fact that you cant judge a driver on the number of them

Yeah I certainly agree with that aswell.

Yet another great post stuckinsecond. I particularly like the comments about demeaning opponents. I've never understood that myself. As you say, it means if your driver does beat the opponent, it's unimpressive, and if he loses you end up looking like an idiot. Of course, some of us may have already formed that opinion.

We'll see. I'm looking forward to the excuses he'll come up with if Lewis beats Jenson (as I expect him to).

It is a bit amusing that Lewis never having been beaten, while Jenson has, becomes a psychological advantage for Jenson.

I get your point - you never know how someone will handle a situation they've never dealt with before.

I'd just be very surprised if Jenson was the guy to do this. And what I saw particularly in his rookie year, was a guy who when he saw at times Alonso outperforming himself in qualifying would redouble his efforts to study the data and get a handle on how and where Alonso was quicker, and then turn this around. All the while learning new tracks etc.

To me that was the mark of a very strong minded competitive individual, not someone who would just crumble at the first sign of adversity.

However, I don't see it coming up - I find it hard to believe that Jenson is as good as Alonso. Lewis had the measure of Alonso and therefore I expect him to have the measure of Jenson.

But, we'll see, won't we?

Yes. The initial 50 plus messages were all anti-Hamilton, then they changed tact to attack Hamilton under the guise of being a Button fan. With the level of garabage spouted by this person it should be clear to most that they are simply here to stir.

Would explain a lot because most fans of Jenson Button here are actually very sensible.

The way Lewis drives means he is always going to get the most out of any car and will get results that maybe the car doesn't justify - Brake very late, power sliding, getting on throttle early and anticipating over/understeer. He may be alot harder on his tyres than Jenson but Lewis seems to improved in this area as the seasons have gone on. Mistakes have to go to Lewis but again he seems to be making less as the seasons go on which is expected.

Jensons driving style is so smooth and he does alot less work in the car than most drivers but he has shown that when he needs to be agressive he can be and with being aggressive change his driving style on occasions in which he has stated himself. If the car is not up to his standard then he doesn't really outperform the car he has been given. I don't think i have heard of any driver moan so much on the radio about how much problems he was having with the car ( FIA season review ) Deserved the WDC and did show that he was a Excellent overtaker

Its just too close to call this season

Speed - Lewis
Overtaking - Lewis although Jenson has shown he is just as good
Less Mistakes - Jenson
Tyres - Jenson
Qualifying - Has to be Lewis
Defensive driving - When under pressure i would give to Lewis
Wet weather driving - Err No point in writing this but i will anyway Lewis
Getting the most out of a bad car - Lewis

He did seem to complain a lot on the radio but I think it was exagarated because of his crappy radio which made his voice sound like he was always whining even when he didn't complain about anything.

Fan of neither, from a basic view both drive differently by some margin, there is some merit when some people say Jenson goes off the boil when the car balance is shite, but I would also contend that Lewis sometimes makes mistakes when the car balance is not right, Lewis takes the riskier way but the more rewarding if he pulls it off.

With a car that handles well, I think we may get a surprise Jenson drives on rhythm and if gets his McLaren setup nicely over the length of a race he may be hard for Lewis to handle to be honest and those who may say that straight out pace Jenson is slower again there are a lot of times where Jenson has been supreme in one lap pace.

If the limo is chuckable and there is some evidence it is given some of the hot lapping Lewis has already done and it keeps its tires under it Lewis will be very difficult to beat.

Now this may be variable from race to race, given Brawns difficulty over the last part of the season too much was put down to the drivers when I think there were greater problems going on with race engineers and it was apparent in several teams. The teams just did not have a handle on the cars fully and it made a great season IMO.

McLaren have one of the strongest pairings and in the contemporary setting the strongest on paper, so I am very much looking forward to this battle of the team mates. I think just on gut Lewis will win out he is enormously talented and generally does all the right things. Jenson may surprise several times this year because the racing rules may just suit him and his smooth fast style to a T

That's a fair enough summary

Honestly i think it will be alot closer then some people think.

Jenson is a very smooth driver and if you go to his website and listen to his audio diarys he constantly comments that he seemed to perfer it when he had alot of fuel in the car. Also i think he mentioned in the bahrain diary thats when he felt that redbull and toyota (redbull in particular) had caught up. Not to mention that in 2009 he learned "how to win" that seems to be a crucial part of a driver development in F1 over the years, heck mark webber "learned" how to win in 2009 and went on to win more too.

Lewis on the other hand a very good driver learned so much from the 2009 season. His 1st season as a back runner luckily enough he was in a team with the funding and knowledge to be able to catch up. This will have helped him appreciate when he has a great car and made him a better driver all round too.

Also in the 09 season it didnt help jensons standings as much as it could have in my opinion. Starting the year "perfect" then falling off because of many reasons makes it easy to criticize a driver regardless of many things. Lets just assume for arguement that jenson's right and the redbull and toyota had caught up by bahrain. He went on to win 4 more races on an "equal" playing field (not to mention that he had to get past vettel and both toyota's in the bahrain race to win). Then we get to silverstone brawn/redbull had a brought 2 brand new update package's. Redbull leaped ahead at this point the next car from the redbull was 25 seconds off the red bulls final race time. This also appeared (to me atleast) the point that the brawn update seemed to take atleast 1 step backwards.

While yes lewis is an amazing driver but when you go to a season with a backmarker and it ends up becoming a car that can win races it does help the standings of a driver. Especially if that drivers team mate is seriously underperforming or just negotiating with walls on more then a few occasions. Though this shouldnt take away from lewis being an incredibly strong driver. It just seems to me that there are many ways of looking at a season.

If we flipped the season and jenson had started in a midfield car and ended up staying in the points at the start of the season then at the final part of the season ended up winning the last 6/7 races he'd be praised as a hero. But alas that didnt happen. Like i said starting off strong then petering out for a while dosnt help a drivers standings as much as starting off terrible and getting stronger. Especially if that driver isnt seen as a front runner anyway.


Either way i feel its going to be an incredible season and i also think that jenson and lewis will work very well together

Does team-mate comparison not apply to Hamilton at all, then?

Webber and Vettel managed to win races with their car, Barrichello and Button managed to win with theirs, yet Hamilton's second half of the season run of wins and podiums went alongside his team-mate not managing a single podium. And check out how far he was ahead of Kovalainen in the races. If that isn't an indicator of a driver making the difference I don't know what is. I will agree that the Brawn and Red Bull drivers were probably driving at a higher level than Heikki, but not to that extreme amount.

Looks Like Jenson is gonna need Hamilton's help to win the title.

http://www.autotrader.co.uk/f1/story/0,255...5970439,00.html

Stating the obvious. So what?

""In Formula One a driver cannot win the Championship by himself. Michael (Schumacher) and Fernando (Alonso) never would have won it by themselves," Button told Spain's Marca."

As if he is gonna get any help from Lewis

So where in that article does he say he needs LH's help?

He doesn't

Then why didn't you mention that.