No Jenson was passed by a quicker car, Lewis was passed after his speed down the straight was compromised by having just passed Petrov in the previous corner and also perhaps having a degree of caution with Petrov, he is prone to contact with other cars ask Alonso when he passed Petrov

That is just so unfortunate

It might even have been a viable argument if we hadn't seen Lewis simply cover the inside in the same situation and totally foil his attacker; Vettel was crawling all over the back of Lewis' car on Lap 6, he obviously had a massively faster car but couldn't get anywhere.

And Jense is known for it, in my mind at least, he's always been easy to pass. He's at his best sticking in a series of fast laps on his own, wheel to wheel he just lacks that last fraction of killer instinct.

I don't write my posts for no reason. I explained the differences but you seem to look over them.

For starters, define 'massively faster'. As I already wrote in my previous post, there's still a huge difference between Webber's 'massively faster' pace compared to Button, and Vettel's 'massively faster' pace compared to Hamilton. If you want to ignore that fact, go ahead, but it doesn't make your argument any better that 'in your mind' Button is easy to pass.

Besides that, if there's any driver upfront at the moment that lacks 'wheel to wheel killer instinct', it's the guy Hamilton was defending against during those laps.

I suppose I didn't see in your post an explanation for why Jense didn't simply move to cover the inside like Lewis. I can't find the various lap times atm but on the face of it coming out of the previous slow corner that's all that was needed, pretty much independently of laptime, and JB still had enough traction to achieve that.

I'd say 'massively faster' would start at 1.5s.

Indeed, Button was passed by a quicker car, Hamilton by a slower one, after just having overtaken that slower car a bit indecisively.

Not sure how that accurate observation is helping those who say that Button is easy to pass and Hamilton not so.

You do realize covering the inside means you sacrifice acceleration onto the next straight? That's why Button didn't do that. And no, you can't compare it with Hamilton doing that, as then you again forget Hamilton was 1-1,5 seconds faster than Button those laps. That it only just worked for Hamilton, probably means Button wouldn't have been able to pull it of.


Then I highly doubt Vettel was massively faster. Only because Hamilton drove so defensive those 2 laps, it was more than 1.5s. Button however was already massively slower than Webber without taking defensive lines.

Well if you or anyone can link to the laptimes that could be a help .

Meanwhile I think it's in the timing of the move to the inside: start on the clean outside and then move with the attacker to the dirty inside.

In principle anyway it was a perfect comparison - same cars, tyres, laps and attacking cars. Jense overtaken, Lewis not.

Then for JB supporters who don't wanna accept that at face value, 10+ possible ways of explaining it away .

To me it looked like Lewis had less tyre left on Lap 6 than Jense had on Lap 5, but he just defended better.

This discussion between you and Lights seems to be foundering because Lights believes that button chose not to defend as he didn't think it was worth comprimising his race whilst lewis chose to defend and did so successfully.

To compare how good they are defensively you'd need to take a situation where they were both defending to the max, jense clearly felt discretion was the better part of valour. Lights admits that that decision may well have been down to how slow button was on those tyres, hence his situation was worse than hamilton's who was driving faster and hence he was more likely to give up the place rather than fight.

Just sticking my oar in because it's gong round in circles

When you pass a car on the inside of a corner you're always going to compromise your exit speed and the Renault was none too shabby down the straight, you call that indecisive because Lewis wasnt able to pull away from Petrov down the straight, similar thing happened to Jenson after he passed Lewis and he was vulnerable down the straight.

Always good to have the deadlock broken, however briefly

For me the fact that the team radioed specifically to tell Jense to keep Webber behind pretty much rules out Jense deciding not to defend. And I prefer to think of Jense as more of a fighter than that, anyway.

I can't think of any episode ever of Jense defending 'to the max' though. Interested if anyone can find one?

Not sure I buy their tyres being all that different either tbh. 5 laps... and Lewis' were clearly utterly shot on his Lap 6.

You need evidence now to believe that Hamilton was much faster?


In lap 5, Button gets overtaken by Webber, Vettel reels in Hamilton. Hamilton still puts up a 1:22.3 in lap 5. In lap 6 he puts up a 1:23.6, largely because he's driving defensive lines in a lot of corners.

I'm not argueing who's tyres were in worse shape or not, fact is that Button was way slower. His pace was dreadful, obviously defending in the shape he was in was clearly different than the shape Hamilton was in.


Yeah, and that would help Button how? He'd just have a compromised line into the next turn, while Webber is on the ideal line so turns after Webber is even closer.


In principle, without adding the most useful attribute: pace.

10+? What would you say of 1? Which I've already explained.

Starting to lose you here.. I've already explained it was a decision and you agreed (?)?

Good data . Astonishing difference in pace. Still it seems totally hypothetical to me to suppose that Jense chose not to defend, after the team told him to. I know it turned out Webber wasn't a threat but on Lap 5 there was every reason to think he would be, and that every second that could added to his lap would be valuable.

The team didn't think letting him go was good strategy, that we do know, and I can't see that Jense would have felt equipped to decide something else.

Ah not quite. It would be fair enough for JB not to defend IF that was impossible. Was all I agreed to .

But so far I can't see that it was impossible.

Ok, so let me get this clear.

It's either:

A: Button decided not to defend
B: Button doesn't know how to defend

And you're sure Button didn't decide anything. Which would clearly mean Button doesn't know how to defend, as he didn't drive a single defensive line in any of those laps, or even try it. Why wouldn't he know how to defend? He's done it before. Frankly, I don't see myself how it could be an option, yet you're sure it's what happened.


Fine, obviously it wasn't impossible.

I guess the thing for us to do is wait for some more evidence about how good JB is defensively .

I guess. Can't really find or remember moments that he's been defending like this as an example.

Did find this however.

What do you think about the new updates at the MP4-25

Lewis is more confident (The feeling in the car was positive...."I had a big grin on my face when I got to full throttle. It makes a nice difference....I definitely feel we've made a step forward from Valencia...)

as

Button, not so happy (The car is very tricky in a few places around the circuit...Today's been a little bit trickier than expected in the car...Jenson Button admitted he was disappointed with his day...)

Their usual reaction (we know Lewis is a bit more confident, and "happy")
or
will one of them have more problems with it than the other?
(both had some today)

More of that (in my view) natural camaraderie between Jenson and Lewis in this sneak peek video

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport...one/8806529.stm

Preview of pub quiz film for this weekend's coverage with Jenson and Lewis taking on the BBC F1 team (Jake & EJ it looks like) and Comedy Dave and Chris Moyles with Al Murray and Tony from Bullseye running the quiz.

Looks incredible, hopefully this is a five minute plus film (more appropriate to show before qualy or race, anyone have any thoughts on this matter?).

God he was so young. Too young? One great luxury Lewis did have was the freedom to wait, and not have to grab the chance to get into F1 as soon as it came.

From the things I've read, he was alright at first but then started to believe F1 was a piece of cake and that he just needed to wait for a good car to come along, alongside taking advantage of everything that comes by in your life when you become an F1 driver. It's understandable for a 20 year old, but it wasn't the right approach and nowadays you actually don't see that kind of stuff anymore. Foolish of him, it did cost him some credibility that perhaps kept the big teams away from him later. However when I started following F1 and supporting him, I didn't know he used to be like that.

Well the update has now been called off for Silverstone. Obvious "teething" problems.. good test though (in the engineering sense..lots of data).

With all respect to LH, he has only had one year (or was it just a few months?) with a "bad" car, JB has ten years of various cars, including the world unfamous Nick Fry designed "EarthNightmare" . I get the impression JB still carries the mental scars from those days, anyway, Id expect him to recognise a good or problematic car when he drives one.

LH has still a few more scars to come. Last year he pretty much had the sole responsibility (with all due respect to Heikki) to push the cars development along. This year JB is there too, so he doesn't quite have the same pressure which is good for him, as he can have have a bit more fun(!) - he did go off the circuit 6 ? 7 ? times yesterday - so in the end it could not have been quite the "step" that was hoped for.

As the team would say "too inconclusive" as to which could benefit more more from the update (when its ready!) - does not look like its in its final form yet!

(Canada/JB/Webber holdoff..or lack thereof)

Thats the problem.

Certainly the past couple of years its difficult to find a situation where JB actually "held up" someone. In 2009 Hungary springs to mind, but there we had the problem with the supersofts self-destruction after a few laps.

This year I can only think of Malaysia with the Ferraris, but then again it was old vs. new tyres.

I'm a bit surprised that the Webber vs. Vettel "overtaking skills" (or lack thereof) argument has not been brought into the discussion.

With the term it was not "impossible" for him to hold Webber off, from my point of view, it could have ended in an incident of "Webberistic" proportions, irrespective of the pit communications, things can only occur within the laws of physics (damn Newton!). Take 2009, Bahrain - JB overtook LH, LH had the more -problematic- car, but no orders from the pit wall could have helped except "shunt him!".

But in the end is it that important? .. to me the ultimate "blocker" has got to be Trulli, and where has he ended up?

Yeah I have brought that up at some point, IMO Vettel's wheel-to-wheel skills are lacking. It would take some pretty special circumstances if he wants to pass someone like Hamilton. Argument got ignored, however.

For the rest of your post, I do agree with you.

It looks like Jenson and Hamilton will have to earn their money during qualifying for the British GP. Mclaren are looking 3rd to 5th best team. The pressure will be on for both drivers. Even Petrov is in the mix. Come on boys.

Yes indeed. If any qualifying session this year is important, it's this one. Especially Jenson has to drive a perfect lap, he can't lose out today, he could be out in Q2.

Oh dear.

yep

I 'm not the biggest Button fan
but he deserves to come in Q3

I really think McLaren should put their eggs in the Hamilton basket now. It just makes sense. I don't mean not giving them equal treatment or allowing them to race equally, but I mean gearing the car around Hamilton's style. Otherwise they won't have a hope in Hell of the championship. I know it's only one race, but the pattern is clear now.

And like I thought, he's out in Q2.

Hopeless, but expected. This is probably his worst qualifying track, but this is even worse than last year.

Nobody deserves anything their talents don't warrant. Half a second behind his team-mate is not good enough. He should have at least scraped into Q3.

Yeah, nice timing. You were saving that one up, weren't you.

No I wasn't saving that one up at all - that is the way your mind works. I think it happens to be the best way forward. Don't you agree?

No, I don't agree. I'd say they have to continue the way they're doing right now.

The tracks wich are coming next, should suit Lewis
I hope the damn upgrade works soon
If the difference between them keeps concistently, they should put their wage behind Lewis

I'm sure they will eventually.


Actually edit: scrub that. I'm not sure they will at all unfortunately.

This pretty much confirms it. Jenson is only good in a good car. If the car is difficult to handle he can't drive it.

The test driver Gary said it's down to Jenson why his down in 14th.

What did change your opinion?

Mclaren are on the back foot now and every last ounce of speed from the car needs to be rung out of it. 4th and 14th, says it all really.

I think Whitmarsh will insist on developing the car to suit both drivers in his huge overriding campaign to prove driver equality for the benefit of the British media over winning the championship.

Hope I'm wrong though.

Yes, you're wrong. There is no huge overriding equality campaign.

If he would like both of his drivers equaly behind the RedBulls in the WDC& WCC
they should do it

Bummer for Jenson:( I wonder what happened to his car to lose grip.

Get on the podium Hammy...unfortunately RB will be unbeatable here unless they break down.

Oh dear Jenson...that was pretty bad. He will have to up his game or it won't be long before he is the new Kova.

Actually, Kova put it on pole here, so I don't know what that makes of Jenson?

Or if it rains. I believe both Lewis and Jenson will be up there if it rains.

Indeed he did, but we all know what happened in the race.

If it rains, Button's P14 will be dissolved and qualifying won't matter a thing anymore. Lewis could challenge for the win, although Red Bull won't be weak anyway. But it won't rain.