No
Won't happen

I don't really understand how button can have beaten or equalled lewis's performances many times this year if we loko at individual race weekend performances and have a score of 11-3? or 10-3-1.

I understand the point you've repeatedly made that you don't need to outperform somebody more times over a season if you're consistent to win the title but that doesn't seem to be what you're saying above.




Totally confused...in malaysia hamilton started behind button and finished ahead, in valencia it was button's mistake and he got a few extra places thanks to SC, in barcelona he was stuck behind someone because he qualified further back and in Spa we'll never know but lewis was ahead.

I mean lewis 'could have' beaten button in australia if he'd come in the same lap or in china if he'd stayed out....but he didn't so so what?

I like hypotheticals...

If Brainfade means he cocked up - i.e. he crashed off the road, into another driver, put himself into a position where another driver could reasonably have been expected to crash into him, or his car fell apart due to an earlier cock up... then YES JB would deserve it.

If Brainfade was due to his mechanic forgetting to tighten a wheelnut and his wheel fell off, then I would feel very sorry for LH, then NO

My score is not 11-3 or 10-3-1 on 'performances'.

Then what is it?

On the other hand Button potentially lost a handfull of points at Monaco through no fault of his own.

Ok, so are you saying that button equalled or beat lewis in some of the 9 races where hamilton finished ahead or in the 2 races where lewis was ahead but had a mechanical DNF? And if so which ones and what's the reasoning?

Button caught up a lot on unfortunate DNFs in Spa but is still a good 10 or so points better off v hammy in my book.

The question posed is a provocative one though, if he threw it off the road then obvously his fault, if it was a mechanical DNF then it would look like button didn't deserve it but then maybe button DNF'd in the previous 2 races/...incidents in the last race always get a disproportionate amount of blame/credit.

hahah he gives Turkey to Jense

At this stage in the season, I'd say that the old adage that luck evens out seems to be proving true. I think both drivers have had their fair share and I'd say the WDC table at the minute is a pretty fair reflection of their respective performance to date.

So assuming that:

1. Over the next 4 races they get to the position in your hypothetical without either driver suffering or benefiting from luck/bad luck (ie Button gains 11 points on Hamilton over those races through simply beating him on track).

2. The "off" in the final race is Hamilton's error.

Then I'd be gutted but would absolutely say that Jenson deserved the win and had been the best driver of the two over the season.

for not being able to make his move stick on lewis despite him getting lucky with contentious radio miscommunication.... nice

This thread proves you are only as good as your last race. Lewis has been the better driver this year for me, regardless of what happened at Monza.

Monza was the first time this year where I was disapointed with Lewis's performance. The first time. What does that say about the type of season he has been having?

Yes.

Well, the last race I was disappointed with Button's performance was the European GP last year. What does it tell about Button's performance?

:EDIT:
By the way, the driver with most points at the end of the season is the winner, and a deserving winner at that. There's no way around it, unless he cheated, of course. For example, if Alonso wins this year by less than 5 points difference, he's not deserving.

Ok... My results below (hot off the press) are based on 'performances'. One car finishing a few feet ahead of the other doesn't automatically guarantee a '1'.

I make it Lewis 7, Jenson 3, Draws 4 (but it would be 6-4-4 if Lewis had been black flagged in Valencia).

Bahrain GP - Lewis, fractionally faster all weekend (albeit first McLaren race for Jenson)
Australian GP - Jenson, faster in qualy, smarter in race
Malaysian GP - Lewis, differing drives and strategies converged on lap 31. Lewis on prime strategy
Chinese GP - Jenson, faster and smarter in the race
Spanish GP - Lewis, better performance until no-fault failure
Monaco GP - Draw, no fault retirement for Jenson on lap 1, Lewis very average
Turkish GP - Draw, race fixed by McLaren after RB shunt. Factors point to either as potential winners
Canadian GP - Lewis, though not by much
European GP - Lewis, faster in qualy (but he should have been black flagged in the race)
British GP - Lewis, faster all weekend
German GP - Draw, matched on Sunday
Hungarian GP - Lewis, faster before no-fault stoppage
Belgian GP - Draw - Lewis edged in qualy, Button faster in wet and would have challenged after SC but compromised by wing damage and taken out by idiot
Italian GP - Jenson, smarter Sat and better Sun
Singapore GP
Japanese GP
Korean GP
Brazilian GP
Abu Dhabi GP


You'll probably find this 'delusional' or something, as I do about an 11-2 scoreline when the points are 17 apart (4.5 in old money) after 14 races and Button is firmly part of the WDC fight. Let's just respect each others opinions eh, as I've no time for a bun fight this week!

he was behind someone because of his dashboard failure which meant he had a bad pitstop in valencia lewis shouldve been given his penalty earlier

It certainly tells something about your disappointment acceptance level.

In Monaco, there was really no way their performance was equal. The McLaren wasn't that strong, but Button did qualify 3 places behind Lewis and lost even more places at the start. He shouldn't have done that, he lost it there.

Spa, I don't see how that's a draw either. There's no proof Button was faster in the wet. He was quick, no doubt, but there's only so little data about it. And then still the crucial component, Lewis easily out-qualified him and was leading the race, for me that already means Lewis performed better.

Totally agree. In both those G's P, there was nothing to suggest that Button was able to match Hamilton's speed.

Masterpiece

It's a miracle Lewis is even leading

The point is you have no idea how the next 2 hours of racing would have panned out and so to give Lewis a valuable 1 due to circumstances outside of Buttons control really make a a complete mockery of system that is supposed to be fairer than the FIA system. IF Hamilton get a point because Button DNF'd then, Lewis must lose his points for Hungary and Spain since he could have binned it after those failures for all we know.

Like I said, you are the ones with a scoreboard further away from the reality of the WDC standings than mine - yet mine is the miracle one in YOUR eyes.

I think I've been pretty straightforward. I can count you know, so I can count how many times Hamilton has finished ahead of Button. But I did explain that is not the way my scoreboard works.

Can you honestly say that you think Hamiltons domination of Lewis in Silverstone is EQUAL to his marginal win in Germany? Both worth the same 1 point? That acurately reflects the performances in your eyes does it? If you don't perhaps my system isn't such a miracle after all if you stopped to think about it.

The thing is, IMO, that when it happens like that, you have to look at qualifying first and foremost, and perhaps also the picture drawn from practice.

You're perfectly entitled to your system and your opinion, I'm not sure why I earned the presumption that I would find you 'delusional', I don't agree with you but was asking you because I was genuinely interested.

In my book it's simply a matter of who wins the weekend hence why there's no reflection of 'by how much'.
I think to reflect your perspective you'd be better off with a score out of 10 for each race autosport style.

Of your scores I don't understand why you've got 2 draws because they were matched on sunday, in F1 sat counts for a lot. Same goes for monaco.

You mention that we don't know what would have happened if there hadn't been the 4 DNFs that weren't anbyone's fault but I'd have thought it makes sense to ignore what ifs and focus purely on the relative performance we saw of the 2 drivers over the weekend when they were both racing. In all 4 instances, in my view, hamilton was out performing button.

apologies i forgot about that, but would have still been significantly behind hamilton wihtout the stop too I believe?

Hamilton proably should have got the penalty in valencia earlier..or lets say it was unfortunate it took so long to check. If that had happened or if hamilton had stayed behind the SC it would still have been blind luck that button was ahead of him, he gained a few places thanks to the SC anyway.
So if it had happened I'd have given the point to button but it didn't so have no qualms giving it to hamilton given the delay in the penalty only reversed the bad luck he had in where the SC came out...lewis stayed in the same position after the SC, it was button that gained.

It means he has been having an amazing season, his best in F1 to date.

I was seriously impressed with Jense in that last stint in China, even though he ran off the circuit and was fretting on the radio with Fear of Hammy. And Lewis blew it in Monza while Jenson had a great weekend.

Otherwise Lewis has looked faster in every race. In Germany, JB went off trying to keep up. In Oz, it all went the way it did because Lewis blew past Jense on Lap 6...

Yet Jenson is only 17 points behind, and those 17 are worth only about a third of that when you take into account points inflation. Button has been similarly impressive and has been as close to jammed up Hamilton's backside in performance terms as is decent in public. Hamilton has just had a slight, but constant edge. Best driver combination on the grid though.

Stop exaggerating Undersquare, Lewis doesn't need it.

You do realise that you saying soooo true is going to be taken by most people as evidence that it's not.

Good point well made

Obviously he doesn't need it. More a question of you needing to think of a race where JB looked faster

It's not that that's not an interesting view on it, and from that perspective you're absolutely right. How I approach it however is, until the DNF, who performed better? And to be honest, Lewis was streetlengths ahead. So basically, there's two things:

- At the moment of retirement, Button was running 11th with Hamilton in 5th. It would've been impossible for Jenson to overtake him during pitstops, they would be too far apart. The only way would have been Button pitting with the SC like Alonso, he then would have had to overtake the backmarkers even quicker than Alonso did, and like that he could beat Hamilton. In other words, it just wasn't going to happen, and if it did, it would be purely strategy and not performance.

- We actually do know how the race went, and Button's retirement didn't change anything. He just parked it and the race went on. We know the rest was uneventful and decided by pitstops around lap 15. Button, with luck, perhaps would have finished in the top-8.

The big difference between the two is that Jenson is far more selfish. I would hate it if he beat lewis to the title.
Jenson:'the thing about being world champion is you dont get enough time to enjoy it'
is he serious?
Jenson said he would quit f1 if faced with team orders. Does that mean he would quit if he was the favoured one? If felipe massa turns the tables on alonso next year it Will be a triumph of patience and effort. if he goes the button way, he would throw all that hes worked for away

Id give Monaco and Turkey to Hamilton as it was his pressure that sent the Redbulls off imo anyway. so 9 - 3 - 2 for me. Not a bad list though

Also how is 17 points 4.5 in old money, isnt it more like 7/8

I see, so when it requires brains or not crashing (maybe that's the same thing?) Button is better?

You don't really get it do you. He doesn't want team orders in F1. He believes both drivers should get equal opportunities. If you win, you should deserve it, not like Alonso's win in Hockenheim. Lewis agrees on that too.

what interests me about monaco is jensons qualifies 2 tenths behind lewis with a bad balance while in q1 with tyres and balance he is happy with he is quicker than lewis he wanted to stay with the hard tyre but went for the soft but shouldnt have

There was a time when a great performance in the rain or the ability to drive well in slippery conditions, or changeable conditions was thought to be a much better indication of a driver's ability. As is something like Monaco..

surely the comment about being world champion and not having enough time to enjoy is a fair comment he trying to say you wanna soak up what youve won for as long as you can instead they have to work incredibly hard for next year

form rubens to buemi 6th to 11th was only six seconds he could have been around 7th

I'm not agreeing with Grenada but I fail to see the relevance unless you are including 'strategy calls' under 'driving well'.
Lewis has driven brilliantly in every race in changeable conditions this year imo (china, malaysia, spa, oz) and button pretty much the same, perhaps a bit less so in malaysia.

To be clear I'm not taking anything away from button's wins but you seem to be referring to pace rather than strategy.

button tyres were cooked in australian the intermidiates if you can find the race again take a look before the yellow flags come out for the incedent on the first lap take a look were jenson is compared to lewis jb is hasseling shumacher while lewis is not close to jenson then the safety car comes out

hmmmm, clearly button is therefore quicker than hamilton but hammy is better at preserving his tyres...

Yeah, and mind you, before the start of this season every Hamillton supporter would have agreed with you emphatically, pointing to Monaco or Silverstone 2008 where Hamilton won in such conditions. But curiously, after Button stroked along and beat him twice in similar circumstances this year, that changed completely. Nowadays, "normal" races are the one and only measure of driver talent, unpredictable conditions now being "lotteries" or at best strategie excercises and got nothing to do with driver talent.

6.8 at pure percentage terms, the points distribution might alter that slightly.

Lewis has had an awesome middle to the season, probably the best I have ever seen considering the number of competitive teams. Now the stage is set and the season comes to a climax, we have 5 still in the hunt, pressure will boil. We have a lot to look forward to and there will be many talking points that will make everything so far seem trivial. Bring it on.

That's the spirit!

It's inevetable that we'll see more mistakes from the participants, for the simple fact that with each passing race it will become more of an absolute must for each of them to finish in front of the other. Whereas in early and mid-season driver X might be content with losing 3 or 5 points to driver Y, now comes the time when they just can't afford to lose anything to anyone, which naturally will force them take bigger risks.

Can't wait!

lol! Look whos back.

'They' say being selfish is one of the characteristics to becoming world champion.

On the track all the drivers are pretty darn selfish.

Kind of why I think Whitmarsh insisted on bringing Jenson to macca, they needed a driver with a brain (or at least thinking abilities at all times) to compensate for hammy.

Perfect scenario would have been that the boy took notice and it had rubbed off but I'm afraid judging by his red mist move in Monza that won't happen anytime soon.

Still a thinker and a gung-ho kid might be enough to scoop up the WCC though.

What a outrageous nonsense.