You dont seem a Button or Lewis fan.

But if you are a Button fan, you might have had memory fade. I know 2008 was pretty awful but you must remember Jenson seemed more content to lose his front wing than race that car ;). Dare I say as Button fan that in the same time period, Jenson has had more incidents than Lewis. The mistakes Lewis has made have simply been elevated because he is in a top car and team. It gets noticed more... When a Mclaren is out of the race you know about it. When a Honda retires, who really notices?

edit - Bona, the Australia incident was more Alonso closing the gap.

I do accept he made a mistake in slowing and preparing to get behind the SC, an instinctive reaction but the wrong one. But having done that, and being in the position of should-I-pass-or-not when it was just becoming illegal, it was not a mistake to go through and risk a penalty.

He didn't need to know the exact numbers, he just needed to know the SC was going to be going a lot slower than his delta and that in the time he'd lose other cars would be pitting, and he'd lose more than a DT of 12s or so. If he hadn't had Koba to slot in before, he had Rubens, and at any lap from about half the laps he eventually did get (can't remember the exact numbers) he'd have come out ahead of Alonso.

After all it's only the calculation of 'was Vettel better off having passed it'.

I agree with you about Lewis' driving this year, I guess it's less of a surprise now. Plus there's the Good As Your Last Race effect atm.

Though I'm a bit puzzled by his first corner/first lap policy this year; some races he's braked really early and been passed, now twice he's stuck his nose in where he never would have before. Thinking too much about it, perhaps.

I just wanted to say, it's a part of racing, and it happens to every driver

I think the only thing that happened was the sudden realization that he was allowed to pass the safety car after all, so he went for it. There's no reason to believe he even considered possible penalties - nothing he said afterwards, nothing in his behaviour on-track - did he push as hard as possible after the safety car before the team told him he had a drive-through? I don't recall that he did.

Your last sentence makes no sense at all btw. Vettel passed it legally, so of course he was better off.

This, Im not the only one that has noticed...he gets good starts but goes all conservative in first corner recently (since Hungary)....but its all good. The good start part is the most important.

Well what he said afterwards was obviously not going to be "I decided the penalty would be worth it". He was only 1-2 seconds behind Vettel when the team told him he had the penalty so we can't read anything into that either.

The point about Vettel is that we have no trouble recognising that he was better off in front of the SC than behind it. So there was an obvious benefit. Then the calculation is just subtracting a DT from that. 12s - well within the gain he could expect.

It was very noticeable in Hungary but that was surely due to the fact that they thought there was an issue with the brakes on the lap to the grid.
I haven't seen it anywhere else TBH.

BS. At the point DURING THE RACE at which you realised Hamilton was under investigation - you didn't figure out that Hamiltion had been better off jumping the line, what the penalty would be, that it was lucky its significance has been marinalised by the intervening laps or that a rival team would complain and it would go nowhere.

You are sitting pretty because of hindsight. Truthfulness = objectiveness.

If its not hindsight, then you must expect Hamilton will do the same thing next time. I beg to differ.

Germany this year was a really cautious one too, he let Webber have T2 from a long way back; he did get him on the straight but I wondered if if cost him a shot at Vettel. 'Course we don't know if Webbo would've clobbered him if he'd claimed T2....

I'm not talking about my hindsight, we knew nothing at all about it as it was happening. I'm saying Lewis would have worked out (or been told possibly) it was better to go through. He did obviously change his mind, so why?

I see the game your playing. In every post I have to remind you of your original post that I replied to which was where you said that Button would less likely win than Hamilton in a less than fastest car. Nothing to do with faster over slower teammates in general. Specifically Lewis v Jenson, as per this thread.

So, nothing to do with Rubens, Kovy, 2008 or Elvis.

The statistics are then that Jenson has won 2, Lewis 3 this season. So there are only 5 statistics that we are concerned with here to debate YOUR ARGUMENT. Now I put it to you that both of Buttons wins came in cars that were not the best that day, whereas I am not so sure Lewis can claim the same honour regarding Spa or Canada.

Ergo, as teammates, Jenson appears to have 2 'not in the best car wins' to 1 against Lewis this season.

All you can tell me is that anyone will tell me that those statistics are insignificant in your response.

That's because the point is absolute nonsense.

Because he realized that he was allowed to pass.

That's the simplest explanation, and it fits the facts without having to make stuff up.

Not trying to defend Hamilton -the most overrated driver ever- here, but aren't most of WDC won by top class cars and not by midfield cars? What's your point then?

I'm now convinced you understand the full picture.

The DT is utterly irrelevant. What made the penalty inconsequential was the number of interveining laps (after the SC came in) that allowed Hamilton to build a time buffer on track to allow him to pit for his penalty without cost. That time was influenced ONLY by the time it took the stewards to make the decsion. The quicker the decsion, the less laps to build the buffer of time. And that is not something Hamilton could have controlled or considered as the yellow flags came out a few hundred yards before that white line.

He made a mistake and it was luckily not damaging to his race. Move on.

Just refuting the posters claim that Hamilton would win more races that Button without a front running car, on the basis that the most likely win would come from a wet/mixed race and Button has won both of those this season.

Posts deleted.

A reminder to to all members that no thread is off limits to any other poster, that deliberate trolling (read; winding up) of others is against the house rules, and that if you consider a post breaks any rules then you must report it and not reply to it.

Think it's you who's making stuff up. He went past but didn't know about the SC2 line? Didn't know where it was? Or what? What's the scenario you're inventing?

It's quite obvious he knew there was a risk, and accepted it.

Why the hesitation, if he always knew he could pass up until the SC2 line?

If he already knew that why not just pass? - he had plenty of time to do that.

You're a Lewis basher so in every post when someone says that Lewis would do something good you have to dispute it. P.S. Which car was best in China if not McLaren?

You're totally lost in your rambling.

Why the hesitation indeed?

The least likely thing is that he went past with his mind blank or out of sheer horridness.

He decided to. Having clearly changed his mind. In a car that can change speed in a flash so it wasn't momentum.

Either he was told to by the team, or he worked it out. Either way it wasn't luck, is my point, because the way it unfolded was very predictable.

I haven't said he went past with his mind blank - you're making stuff up again.
He was lucky that it took as long as it did to impose the penalty.
He was lucky that the penalty was a drive-through.
He was lucky that Kobayashi stayed out on his hard tyres and backed Button up.

I'm not going to argue this any more. Last time around several Lewis fans agreed with all or most of the above. You obviously never will.
None of this is in any way insulting to Hamilton. Button was also lucky in that race, with the timing of the safety car. It didn't hurt me too much to write that.

I don't know why you even started arguing it.

Obviously the benefit got bigger with the elapsed time and with Koba. But the time was not that exceptional and Koba was not that slow. It was always going to be better to go past than stay behind, whether he slotted back in in 2nd, 3rd or 6th.

We could equally say he was unlucky to be in that position when the SC came out, to get the penalty when the stewards hadn't even noticed the half-second infringement, and to lose the chance of fighting Vettel for the win.

Because last time you came out with your theories they were rebutted very effectively - and not by a Jenson fan.
But now they're presented as fact.
They're still ridiculous.

For instance when did it become a fact that no one on this planet noticed Hamilton pass the SC except Alonso?

It doesn't help your argument, such as it is, to be claiming somebody else said something once upon a time and they were in such and such a pigeonhole. You can't make a case by yourself for whatever it is you believe, you've said you'll shut up about it, but can't, where are you trying to get to?

I have shut up about it.
You speculated as to my motivation in arguing with you.
I explained that it was because last time you brought up your ridiculous theories they were rubbished by other Lewis fans but you presente them as established fact now.
I haven't argued as to Lewis's ability to predict penalties, how long they'll take, what effects they'll have and who's watching in a split second. I've already said that would be futile.

Well the upper quote was where you came in. I demonstrated it was false, you haven't been able to show anything yourself. You haven't been able to deny Lewis visibly changed his mind or that it clearly indicates a decision, nor that passing the SC was predictably going to pay off.

Maybe you should go and ask the other posters who in your dreams rubbished my argument what to say next.

I don't know who you're still trying to convince with always that same old bollocks about super-brainiac Lewis calculating all implications of a blatant rule breakage in a split second. We've been there before and you made a laughing stock of yourself. Was that such a nice experience that you must go for it another time at all costs?

Sure you did.

Well done. You win.
Lewis can predict the future, I see it now.

Fancy seeing you here .

It might seem complicated to you, but it wasn't really. Time saved, places saved, DT time. However roughly or finely estimated it was always going to pay off.

I still think, Lewis was told to push over teamradio
rumours say there was a "Lewis go" ATM he saw the Safetycar and hestitated
The Stewarts could not use this as proof because it was overlayed from the SC message every driver gets and not clearly to identify
Lewis himself said he was a bit confused about all the messages, beeps and warings he got at the same moment

Please stop discussing each other. Regarding the specific Valencia penalty, please take the discussion to an appropriate thread since it is otherwise no longer a discussion about Hamilton in relation to Button.

There's a thread specifically for this issue here;

http://forums.autosport.com/index.php?show...enalty+hamilton

If someone posts something I disagree with, I respond to it. That's the general idea of this forum, dear boy.

A shame your rambling doesn't include backing up your opinions.

The Red Bull.

I'm loving JB's driving so far (FP1 & FP2)... its so aggressive and un-JB like.

Even Chandok on BBC said it was like LH in JB's car with JB's helmet.... maybe they do learn from each other after all.

Shame they keep sending Hamilton out in traffic! What a surprise.

Jenson has had traffic too, infact everyone has.

They do it on purpose. Surely you've figured that out by now.

Looks like Monza has left some marks
Lewis is not "on" it

Jensons looking strong, so far,

Hamilton seemed quicker with race fuel?

Hamilton actually mentioned it on the McLaren website and there was a twitter about it on the BBC website. They kept saying on the McLaren website: "There you go Jenson, nice big gap" - what about Hamilton? Typical, as I said.

What?

Anyway... you know all things Hamilton... what's up with him this weekend. Is he burnt out from too much promo? depressed over the DNF?... he doesnt look right. He's not been attacking the circuit in his usual manner.

I wonder if Hamilton has by now.

So you're suggesting they deliberately put Hamilton out in traffic?

Lewis long runs were faster (but that could have been due to traffic, I have no tv coverage)
Quick lap on harder tyres, too
but he was really not good with the softer tyres, lost too much time in sector 2& 3

Dunno. He was sent on a naff Singapore boat drum beating promo which even he said must have looked stupid ... meanwhile Button was having the luxury of opening a Tag Heuer store.

It all adds up.

I don't know. We'll have to see won't we?

Then he should back off and make space... surely he learnt that after the quali session in Monza.

No it doesnt... the weekend is young.

How you say... paranoia.