I have to say, that had me in stitches.

I know but it is frustrating that it is so much about the car, IMO.

You wouldn't be complaining if Mac had the best car.

Winning is about the car... good driving is about the driver. You can still admire good driving even if a driver is not at the front.

For me the highlight of this weekend was JA in quali showing the potential of his car (and showing up SB) and RK's last few laps in the race.

Aside from the set up problem (of perhaps a more fundamental problem with the car that meant the rears went off too quickly) and his slightly too early turn in on MW which ended his race, LH did a good job this weekend. Quali was fantastic and he was faster than JB in the race. The move on MW was almost a fantastic opportunist's move given that MW had a faster car at the time (as proven by MW being able to pull away from JB with a less than perfect right front tyre)... but the the margin between zero and hero is very fine and people will only remember the failed move.... given that its so much about the car, as a fan of a driver you sometimes have to forget whether they win or not and just look at how they play the game... only one can win, but that does not make the other's losers.

I am gutted about the WDC being practially out of reach but I am not particularly disappointed about the performance this weekend (as this position was not arrived at in just one weekend and, as I said before, on balance it was a decent weekend aside from the accident)... and as a Macca fan, I am pleased that JB did his job perfectly and was there to inherit the positon that LH lost. With a better car these two will bring a WCC for sure.

I wasn't sure about that, I lost all interest in the race after the crash! Thanks for putting me right.



I was purely looking at pace relative to webber, wasn't aware he was behind rubens. But my point in the post you quoted stands in that I don't think he'd have cruised and collected if he managed to catch him but maybe he wouldn't have if rubens got out of the way, all thrown out of the window by the SC anyway.
Actually where was button when webber and lewis had contact, was he behind the virgin? Just thinking he could have been right on their tails to try and take advantage?

This weekend seems like a good idea to revive a discussion that was had in this thread a lot earlier.

I think it was Lazy who said that lewis was more likely to have DNFs due to his aggressive style. I backed him but we both got lots of stick from other posters who continually said that there was no evidence to support this view as lewis has a great finishing record, little record of contact when passing etc etc.

My basic argument against this was simply that overtaking involves risk and even if you're perfect there's another driver involved too. I think Lazy's initial argument was along those lines.

As a lewis fan I'm very unhappy that he's been proved right but I think it's worth bringing up simply because lots of posters were so certain in their viewpoint and determined to shout down what seemed a reasonable argument then and seems pretty irrefutable now. And it annoys me when people shout the loudest and then don't get brought up on it when they're shown to be wrong...

More interestingly it does make me ponder what the right thing is to do. Jenson seems to calculate whether it's worth going for it, makes incisive passes when he thinks it is or when he's capable of passing the car, probably gets stuck more than hamilton when he doesn't want to but equally settles for more positions. With hamilton's ability to be ahead in most races, thanks to quali or race pace we don't have to argue that, and ability to probably make more passes when it matters perhaps an ability to judge when to cruise and when not to, which risks are the risks worth taking would really make him a more complete, if less exciting, driver?

he weren't on there tails because of the backmarkers simple as that

I don't know about the comparison with Jenson. I can think of a few failed overtakes in his recent past, Fuji 07 for example he put his front wing alongside Heidfeld in T1 and got it knocked off (very frustrating as he'd qualified that dog in 4th), at Monaco 08 (or was it 09) he did a similar thing with Heidi again just after the swimming pool. There was a coming together with DC somewhere...

Was it you who said, earlier in the season, that Hamilton's exit at Monza last year was irrelevant because he wasn't fighting for a wdc at the time?
Whether it was or not, perhaps you can see the parallel. Button's had 3 DNFs in the last 2 years - none of them were his fault, unless you want to argue that he brought Spa '09 on himself by poor qualifying.

I'm not comparing their overtaking ability, the comparison was that lewis overtakes more which means he's more likely to DNF.
I don't think anyone is seriously going to argue that button is not more conservative than hamilton...and if they are then comparing him in a dog of a honda to a top car in a WDC fight is irrelevant.
Btw, I'm willing to be corrected but I believe you were one of the main guys dismissing the argument

So true, Kubica's and Algersuari's efforts were a pleasure to watch this weekend.

Thing is many of the driver groupies nowadays can't enjoy a race anymore if "their man" is not doing well, they are not race fans but cheer on their idol. I'm not big on macca and don't think highly of hammy but Jenson's clever decisions earlier in the year and his exciting battle with Alonso in Monza were great and deserved nothing but respect and if hammy is switched on and things go his way he's a pleasure to watch too.

Maybe not supporting one particular driver makes for more enjoyable watching?

I've no doubt it does in one way but frankly I'm not sure how interesting F1 really is if you don't support anyone. A lot of the races, after the start, involve me checking lewis's times v rivals on live timing whilst the tv director desperately tries to find something interesting to show! But then again if I was a pure race fan presumably I'd be more interested generally.

I find it impossible to watch most sports unless I support someone, I quite like watching a big footy match but lets face it most of them are hyped and then disappoint. On the other hand I can watch any sport when it's at it's peak, only watched on darts match in my life, taylor v vandervelde in the world championship, went to sudden death was awesome.

For the first half of the year, when Hamilton did a lot of overtaking but never crashed, I guess it was easy for his supporters to be lulled into believing their man, only, could drive agressively without ever paying the price. Meanwhile it has turned out that was just an odd lucky streak for Hamilton - just as it's reversely odd now that he suffered two races in a row.

Overall, it's pretty obvious that taking higher risks means getting it wrong more often. Over a decent amount of time and races, it's a no brainer that a driver with Buttons approach will gain a smaller percentage of places by overtaking while at the same time suffering less contact related DNFs. It's not exactly rocket science to work that out.

There's ALWAYS plenty of harmony when one driver is scoring all the points and the other is a clear No2. Sorry if you got the inference that I thought the situation needed repairing at the end of 2009.

Mmm well IIRC the argument was around Oz? I thought someone was saying being hit by Webber was because he gets in those positions.

Anyway I daresay I was involved

There are a couple of aspects it seems to me. One is going for it, or not. One is being close enough. And one is execution.

It's almost a logical necessity that if you always give way and don't try you'll have fewer collisions but get fewer points.

Conversely if you always go for it willy-nilly you'll lose out that way.

So it's a balance. And how do we make it 'pace-adjusted'?

I think overtaking ability is absolutely key to whether it pays off or not.

But anyway, surely Jense would have had a go at Webber in that same position in Singapore? Hopefully he would have left him a bit more room. As, hopefully, Lewis will next time.

Meanwhile I wouldn't change Hammy for the world, I just love it when we hear other drivers fretting over where Hamilton is, and is he going to get them

If you only have eyes for one driver you miss some sublime stuff out there. I loved Kubica's charge on fresh tyres, he's a real racer.

Seems there's a lot of people here who hate to hear anything good about the guy in the other pit garage like it's a put-down on THEIR driver. I have stated on plenty of occasions that I think Lewis is faster for raw speed, Jenson the more strategic racer who makes fewer mistakes. This immediately gets turned into some kind of attack on LH. Jeeeps, LH fans are as thin-skinned as FA fans, it's total adoration or nothing. McLaren has the best 2 driver team in F1 at present, both quick with one a more steady and collect driver, the other out and out moments of brilliance and madness, That they get on famously and are both contributing almost equally to the points tally is the icing on the cake, or maybe the final measure.

I think we can all agree Kubica was epic in that stint, I can't wait for him to get a top car. Mr Horner should get a video of it and make his drivers watch how it's done.

Yes he still had to pass one of the Virgins, he did that in the corner after the crash.

Kubica had fresh rubber and had nothing to lose. Kobi did the same a few races and got Alonso. It was a great drive but he was on fresh rubber.

As for Jenson, I suspect he has settled down at MAC knowing that Lewis is the faster driver this year. During the race Jenson took it easy in the first stint, he was better off staying with Lewis and not trying to conserve those tyres because he pitted soon after anyway.

Oh I don't know, the engineer battle is at least as interesting as the driver battle. To me Newey is the real hero of F1 and is only know, after decades, getting the credit he deserves. I bet he doesn't earn nearly as much as Alonso even now, when he makes much more impact on the sport. I'd like to see more focus on the engineers tbh, but then the last the thing world needs is more celebrities

Edit: maybe we should start the Newey v Prew scorecard

It seems to me the argument boils down to whether you can compare jb's dnf in spa to lh's in barcelona.

There is no way jb was at fault but can you really say for sure that it wasn't lh's harder driving style that caused the wheel to fail? Remember that it was very near the end of the race and it possible that it would have lasted if jb was driving? I personally don't think you can say barca was absolutely not lewis' fault...

So if we want to correct scorelines to try and ascertain true drive ability then you could say that jb is 15 points (2 monaco, 18 spa) ahead of lewis in a season where so many people ridiculed and plain insulted him in that he would get crucified by lewis in his first year in lewis' team...

But that's just speculation and i am happy with 182 - 177 as i think it's a fair reflection and either can still win...good luck to both of them...

This year is proving that jb is a world class driver but unfortunately there's a lot of people who don't like admitting it

UH OH.

No matter how you want to cut it Lewis is ahead on points even though he has had more DNF's. It matters not one iota where the blame lies and playing make believe points won't change that situation.

The bottom line is that Hamilton and Button are basically equal over a season in FIA Championship terms.

In Summary: Pace and Aggression (Hamilton) EQUALS Racecraft and Guile (Button).

Draw up any other scoreboard you want, or rate one higher because he is faster or more spectacular - but these will forever remain your own subjective beliefs.

Those claiming they would remove an importance item of anatomy if Hamilton didn't utterly annialate Button this season, should do so now.

I am facinated by the apparent 'giving up' on the Championship by some of our more obsessive Hamilton fans. Come on, even I want him to win now just to cheer you up! Pull your fingers out. In Japan Alonso will suffer an engine change, the two Red Bulls will start on the front row and take each other out and McLaren will finish 1-2...!

Firstly you seem to be forgetting Hungary and secondly barcelona was down to a mechanics mistake. It's irrelevant whether it would have failed if button was driving, I've no doubt hamilton cou;ld have driven slower and more carefully if he was aware there was a problem. Bottom line is that a tyre nut wasn't tightened properly and couldn't hang on to the end, zero blame to hamilton.

What the points table is showing me is that hamilton has the potential to be significanly ahead of button but if he continues to take the risks he is at the moment then in some seasons he might be even further ahead but in others he may be only slightly ahead/level/behind.

That's a proper fan's conclusion.

I really don't think Hamilton is being overly risky. It's amazingly unlucky for him he came out of both of his last two crashes with a DNF. If he'd have only done so once, at Monza, there would be little of this talk, I think.

lets talk about how these two will go at japan

If it's dry Hamilton will finish ahead of Button or crash.

In principle, Suzuka is less of a traction/brakes/kerbs Lewis track and more of a flowing JB track.

buttons gone quite well there throughout his career in the top 8 at every race he has done and lewis was great there last year

but that is my point rob - the argument that stands here is that lewis although faster that jb is harder on his car, therefor mechanical failures CAN count against him, as his fault, including hungary...the vettel attack on jb was categorically not his fault...

it would great to know that the wheel nut wasn't on properly but no driver has that luxury so it comes down to how hard you are on the car.

I am a big fan of lewis but more so jenson and he is badly underrated

You know, knowing this season, thats what will probably happen! Lewis will win at least one more this year.

I have not given up yet. If Korea goes ahead I think a Mclaren will win there and we will win Abu Dhabi. Vettel will beat Webber for the rest of the season and if Alonso does get a engine change Lewis can just cruise in and win, ideally with Jenson a close and thoroughly deserved second.

I still remember Lewis on his first time there last year setting a time on his second ever lap that no-one beat for half an hour till the track dried. And after that 2nd lap he went back to the garage and went through his telemetry with Pedro looking for ways to improve.

Jenson will love having a car this year that will go through the esses properly and not scrub hopelessly at the front.

Good weekend for both, hopefully.

I have to say .. he's got an excellent record at Suzuka. Finished in the top 8 in every race he's driven there. Last year's 8th place in the Brawn being his worst result...

I'm looking forward to it, he should go well here.

i think japan will be more suited to the mclaren than singapore, the car will be very quicker through s2 and s3 i think a good chance at a win

yeah he got 8th last year but had the pace for probably top 4 his race was ruined by the yellow flags in q2, q1 and q2 he was about 4th quickest but q3 went bad for the brawns

Do you honestly believe what you post sometimes? What f**king race craft? He waits for things to fall into his bloody lap. Since China Button has not had anything to write home about until Monza. Come Singapore and he was again left by Hamilton. A wounded Webber and he did sh1t, except drive around. Australia and China is very far away, and Monza was always going to be favourable to Mclaren. So in the grand scheme of things, its not that impressive.

It's the scoring system's fault then?

there have been races you have missed out where jenson was right there turkey,valencia,hockenhiem,malaysia when lewis left pits that was close with jb, belgium we never got to see jb pace

Who talking about the scoring system? Let me break it down for you slowly. You have 3 cars that can roughly fight it out at the front. That equals 6 cars. 1 of those drivers has just come back from a horific injury and it's debatable if he is the same driver as he was pre-injury. Now out of the 5 drivers with no excuses, Button is last. Forget about apportioning blame, self inflicted DNF's etc, but in the races they have both finished, Hamilton leads. So what is to crow about?



Nearly does not cut it. I nearly won the lottery, I nearly pulled Kate Moss, I nearly won a karting race, but came 2nd. You get the drift? His best races are still sometimes behind Hamilton. I'm sure there is a titbit of praise I could give Hamilton for Singapore, then again I'm not desperate.

Where is the evidence that he is harder on the car? How many mechanical failures has he had to date?

I'm not crowing.
You're the one who seems offended by the notion that so far Button has matched Hamilton in the wdc - if you want to claim that 2 points in old money means Hamilton is pwning him or schooling him or thrashing him or whatever else then you go ahead. That'll be an interesting read.

[Edit] By the way 'in the races they have both finished Hamilton leads' is hilarious. More like that please. [/EDIT]

I'm not offended,. I just dont dole out praise when none is worthy. IMO Alonso drove magnificently in Singapore. Vettel deserves no praise because his car was capable of keeping up with Alonso, and neither did he attempt a passing move. The Mclaren was no match for the Bulls or Ferrari, so there is no praise I can heap on Hamilton for being 3rd. I wouldn't crow about him being 6+ seconds up the road against Button, because its the least I expect. For many this logic doesn't apply to Button. Am I the only one who views his none attempt to even bother a wounded Webber a disappointment?

I'm glad you're not offended. Now can you come up with some more funny lines like the last post please?

No.

Like your right to left? No probs. Typing fast and not reviewing what you posted, can leave you open to a boo boo or two.

That wasn't funny.


<sniff>

Well actually the McLaren has been the 3rd fastest car over the season, Jenson has won 2 races with the 3rd fastest car, is only 1 win behind the top guy in a car that has been on average at least 1 sec a lap faster, and is only 5 points behind the 2nd coming (who incidentally has the advantage of being with the team 3 years) in the same car. Pretty impressive racecraft I'd say. No need to go throwing your toys out the pram just because your guy crashed out tbh.