Did you think they were in the 'same ballpark' before Kimi went to Ferrari?

If you did (I didn't) then you're in a fairly small minority. If that's the case then what made you think Massa could keep up with, let alone surpass, Kimi, based on his performance up until the end of 2006?

And how many of those points were from he last year and a half?

You could construct a list pretty much like that for Jense, if you wanted. In fact you could make up stuff they did not say for anybody .

For me Button is a prig & a Chauvi
I never liked him

But this has noting to do with his driving, for McLarens sake I hope he will do well.

Please can we leave this stuff out?

Why pick last year and a half? Sounds arbitrary to me. We're talking about the same person, a grown up, not about a 12year old boy.

Maybe beacause he has matured in the last one and half years, like Button in about 2002/03.

But he is right anyway. Admit it or not.

Sorry about that. To me it is clear that LH is the better driver and the least likable driver too - between those two. That Lewis can be likable at all is a surprise to me, really, thus the laundry list. It's not meat to be a troll, but when we discuss likability the past tends to appear.

Fair enough mate.

How is it a skewed impression? And what is this "ability" you speak of? I would argue that physiologically all the top drivers are nearly identical (reaction time, vision, etc). Statistically speaking this is highly likely - these guys are the outliers among the general population. Outliers among outliers (outliers squared, so to speak) are a statistical near-impossibility.



Except that this isn't karting. The setup of the car is hugely important in F1. Even Schumacher is dependent on having a car to his liking, as we saw in Bahrain. As far as bookies are concerned, they don't set odds based on reality - they base them on perceptions and maximizing their own profit. Here in the U.S., that means that New York teams are usually favored to do well in sports, because there are more fans of those teams that will bet on the games.



It would hurt my eyes to see the world in such a black & white manner. Button will beat Hamilton multiple times this year. He might even finish with more points at the end of the year. If that happens, will you dismiss it by saying that Lewis has more of your undefined "ability" anyway?

As for dismissing Hughes or any other respected pundit - they sometimes have access to insiders that we don't have, including engineers and drivers. They certainly talk "off the record" with such people regularly. So at least they are basing their articles on something with a source.

Right? What, that Lewis said he's a magician? And said he didn't run the red light in Canada? Just the old-fashioned making stuff up about him that I was starting to hope was in the past .

You keep expecting me to be impressed by what Mark Hughes has written, but I remain stubbornly immune. In fact as far as I'm concerned he's just a hack producing copy for the market: one minute his editor wants him to write an article bigging up one driver, the next minute he is asked to write an article attacking the same driver, or bigging up his rival. It's just a game. I was vaguely aware of, but hadn't read his book on Hamilton. I did notice though that it was rushed out in time for Christmas the very same year most of the events it was describing occurred - hardly the sign of a serious and conscientious writer who wants to get his research right and do the best possible job. I also noticed that it sold very poorly and was very quickly remaindered, so I'm guessing that, despite your claim that it was "recommended by many f1 pundits and fans", it was not exactly on the level of The History of the Peloponnesian War.

There are several posters on this forum whose opinions I respect far more - and of course posters whose opinions I respect less than those of Hughes. But on the whole I wouldn't approach an article or book of his any differently than I would a post by a new member of this forum. If he has something insightful to contribute then I will accept it readily. If he is spouting rubbish like in the article I referred to earlier, I will disregard it. I can assure you that is the same regardless of whether he is writing about Hamilton or any other driver. I am afraid I have not read and am not interested in reading Why is Hamilton Good In the Rain; I prefer to watch Hamilton in the rain for myself and make up my own mind.

Which brings me to my final point: as I was hinting before (in not so many words): why don't you stop worrying about what Mark Hughes - or any other pundit - thinks and try watching the races for yourself and developing your own opinions based on the action you see? These guys probably don't know all that much more about F1 than you - and I know for certain that they know a lot less than some contributors to this board.

Then you'd be in a position to make positive and insightful contributions that go beyond taking Mark Hughes' word as the final authority.

So you're pretty much saying they're all as good as each other? That is a joke when you compare the performances of Hamilton and Alonso against their respective teammates of the previous two years. And Kovi was a sort of benchmark: he had beaten Fisichella quite comfortably in his rookie season and half the people on a poll here thought he would beat Hamilton in 2008.

If someone were to argue that it's not possible to say that Leo Messi is a better footballer than Titus Bramble because "physiologically they're both outliers, and outliers among outliers are a statistical near-impossibility", their argument wouldn't be any more absurd than the one you're peddling.

As for the point about the oddsmakers, what is the "New York factor" skewing the perceptions such that they reckon that Button is three times less likely to win the title in the same car? I'd really like to know.

It seems you have a never ending store of rationalizations, from set up to driving styles to they're all physiologically identical to there's no such thing as ability or raw pace. But at the end of the day, when Hamilton does the same demolition job on Button as he did to Kovalainen, all the excuses will be thrown out the window and even you will have to acknowledge that, while Button is a good driver, Hamilton is truly extraordinary.

If Button beats Hamilton more than four times on merit this season I will of course revise my opinions of both drivers and personally apologize to you for what I have written.

Well, it's Lewis 1 > 0 Jenson. I think that was all pretty much in the qualifying, clearly very important this year. A wider margin than I imagined but I still think it will close up.

shame F1 isnt a movie then

In a debate about the relative abilities of Hamilton and Button, and in which you are arguing Button's case, it would be wise to steer clear of statistics if you know what I mean ;)



I agree he might well beat Hamilton in a straight race (i.e. no probs on either cars or pit-lane disasters) more than once, especially when he finds a better setup and is on a track he likes. However, I also think it's highly unlikely that he'll be ahead of Hamilton in the final standings.



Agreed, but as a former journalist myself I know an opinion piece when I see one, and opinions are like backsides - everyone's got one. Sometimes they stink, sometimes they don't, but one thing is always the same - our own never seem to stink as much as other people's. Hughes is a very experienced F1 journo, but that doesn't mean we all have to agree with him. I find his analysis in this piece quite specious to be honest. It seems based on an observation about a change in wind direction during qually, and as a license payer I don't feel too bad about quoting the BBC site:

An instructive little moment unfolded in the final qualifying session, when the wind direction suddenly changed 90 degrees from how it had been in the previous session just a few minutes before.

Not knowing this, Button suddenly felt the car "go strange" through one of the corners of the middle sector. Assuming there was a technical problem with the car, he was somewhat cautious for the rest of the lap, braking early, taking less speed into the corners.

Hamilton, going through the same change of wind direction, felt nothing and charged on with the lap that netted him the fourth fastest time.

It's a reflection of how they each feel the car in very different ways, Button highly attuned to each nuance of its feedback, Hamilton simply dominating the car, much more reactive rather than anticipative.

Hughes knows that Hamilton didn't feel the wind direction change, and knows that this shows Hamilton doesn't have the same feel for all the nuances of feedback. Maybe he has interviewed Hamilton and asked that specific question, but if so I can't find the interview anywhere. Can we check the comments of other drivers in that session for their own wind direction issues? Button didn't mention it at all, so perhaps simple environmental things that drivers have been living with since aero began to dominate don't count as "nuances". Sorry, but that is a laughable contention for Hughes to make, and he does it while saying that Hamilton simply dominates his car around the track and doesn't therefore feel all those little things. Perhaps the car realises it is being dominated, and submissively goes off and finds that last little iota of grip on its own, or chooses a slightly better line, or puts the brakes on a tiny bit earlier without the driver needing to "feel" all those "nuances".

I'm not having a pop at you or anyone else who supports Button - I would far rather see him compete with Hamilton than lose badly like Kovalainen did - but Hughes really is talking out of his arse in my opinion.

It will close up if Button gets the car to his liking, providing the car is in the window of his comfort zone. Conversely it could stay the same, or even get a tenth or two larger if the car come towards Hamilton, or if Buttons head drops and the pressure gets to him. If Button does not finish ahead of Hamilton by the Barcelona race, not only will the British press be on his back and make the situation 10x worse. But the paddock will also start to talk, and once his immediate peers start to highlight the differences(if this scenario happens at all) Button will find it difficult to recover. Australia could be the most important qualifying of the year for Jenson, because another 3 tenths plus qualifying deficit to Hamilton will just roll over the week after in Malaysia and it could snowball from their. IMO Jensons already under pressure. Mclaren fans will learn a lot about Button mental toughness in the next 3 races.

Indeed. I genuinely beleive as I've said several times that Lewis will help him. Lewis does not want Jense to be struggling. At least until over half way through the season.

Yeah Lewis' feel is one of his great assets, the whole idea that he didn't notice something that made Jense slow down is fanciful. And this new classification of 'reactive' drivers versus 'anticipative' drivers... if there were any basis at all it would be the wrong way round - it's Jense who's reacting to the wind, supposedly, and Lewis who's anticipating that he can keep his foot in. Or however you want to spin it...

What puzzled me was the fact that MPH specifically mentioned that JB was not aware of the change in wind direction but did not do the same re LH. Should we take it as read that LH was also unaware till he went on track (or was he informed by his engineers but JB was not)?

It would also be interesting to know if "the change of wind direction" was strongest at the same spot the Macca is weakest ie the complex of corners through 6 to 8 where JB seemed to almost lose the car in Q3.

TBH I ignored this bit of info when I read the otherwise quite good article as it raises too many possibilities and makes it more difficult to work out what is going on. From what I saw on TV, JB simply did not handle the slower speed sector as well as LH and that is why the gap was the same in all 3 quali sessions despite the "wind" in Q3.

Perhaps I overrate LH but I thought a 0.3 gap would be acceptable...

Because all them problems were in the past. He hasn't been arrogant or rude at all. Seems unfair to hold grudges and I think it's better to judge a person on who they are now than who they were in the past. I'm not trying to make you a Hamilton fan but saying you don't like someone for personality traits that as far as I can see don't exist anymore is a tad unfair.

Still if you don't like his personality now then fine but pick reasons that have happened recently.

Not if you are the current world champion. What I do find interesting is the lack of words and rumour from Mclaren engineers themselves. What is the gap if any between Button and Hamilton?

I don't see it like this. We're not talking about a retired driver here and what he did decades ago. 2 years is a very short time.

Do you account for the possibility that he is just more self-conscious about his words or scared about the backlash -- not that his thinking have changed, but how open he is about it? Or maybe he just hired another, better PR guy?

I do account that, in the long run, you may be right, so we'll see how it goes. LH will be around for at least a decade I fear.

Im just wondering why McLaren werent as concerned about Lewis's tyres though, he was lapping 0.8s quicker and they never told him to slow down?

No I don't account for that. Otherwise I would be suspicious about everyone in life.

Apparently the cars are so bad now that you pick up the turbulence even when youre 5 seconds behind

Show me the lap that Jenson was 5 seconds behind anyone in this race. Guess what, it never happened. He came out of the pits four seconds behind Schumi and promptly caught him up. It's all in the gap chart.

Not that it matters - he needs to find a good Q setup so that he isn't trapped behind slower cars. I'm sure that's the priority for him and his engineers.

Isnt that what most people though anyways that the only time Jenson will have a chace of beating Lewis is when the car is perfect for him.

Rubens use to sometimes beat MS, DC use to sometimes beat Mika, the seasons when Mika was on it

Only problem is that Massa was initially quicker than Kimi

Well I don't see what is wrong with anything Lewis has said. He is only speaking his mind...it's not his fault that he's not saying what you want to hear. He is certainly a more interesting personality than Button...Button is just so bland and boring. IMO, of course.

Many people don't find Lewis "likeable" because of what happened in 2007...how dare a jumped-up rookie take on a 2 x WDC...he should have bided his time, played the dutiful No. 2 and let Alonso cruise to his third WDC....and his fourth, and his fifth. Lewis would then have the No. 1 driver status for 2010 when Alonso left for Ferrari...except by then, Alonso would be a 5 x WDC and Lewis would be firmly ensconsed as a Career No. 2. But Lewis was having none of it...and I for one admire him for it. The F1 WDC is not a lifetime achievement award.

this man speaks the truth!

Get your facts straight:

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_me...ace-history.pdf


Lap -- Gap

17 -- 5.596
18 -- 5.07
19 -- 5.01
20 -- 5.028
21 -- 4.376
22 -- 4.527
23 -- 4.391
24 -- 4.36
25 -- 4.498
26 -- 4.02
27 -- 4.07
28 -- 3.979
29 -- 3.89
30 -- 4.023
31 -- 3.927
32 -- 3.313
33 -- 2.88
34 -- 2.171
35 -- 1.649

Yes it's all in the gap chart.

Lap 18, JB was 5.07 behind MS.

He stayed 3-4s behind until lap 32.

You can't say he was held up in those 14 laps but he lost 11 seconds to Lewis in them.

.

I think that Hamilton and the heroes of the Peloponnesian War are not exactly on the same historical rank level but...I might be wrong.




There is something new to me...developing my own opinion . I'm delighted you gave me such a precious piece of advice.
btw developing your own opinion you base on what? Tv coverage?

What i cant understand is that if the McLaren becomes a perfectly balanced car then Jenson will be faster than Lewis, wheres the proof?
Alls ive ever seen is that when Lewis has a really good car he produces amazing drives, the notion that his driving style would prevent him maximising a good car i find hard to believe

Good point.

IMO the MP4-24 was as good and as balanced as it was ever going to be at Abu Dhabi. Would Jenson have pulled out a lap like that?

Personally I doubt it.

Lets put it simple. Ask MS, Alonso, Massa, Vettel...ask nearly every driver in the grid who they fear most: Lewis or Jensen. They would easily say Lewis.

The gap was the same in all 3 Qualifying stages and in the race as well but Jenson got outqualified because of a gust of wind, go figure

Yeah, I can't see a car that Jense would be quicker in. Bearing in mind they've already gone from a Chevvy Lacete to the MP4-25...

Jense had a bit of a rush of blood from his wdc and visiting the MTC, but it'll help Kovy to restore his reputation, at least.

jenson must have a fantastic "feel" for the car to notice a change in the car, if he said something was not right and afterwards mclaren team checked the wind etc effect on the car. Always welcome to engineers i would of thought -a driver with feedback like that. Lewis never noticed anything.

This is a comparison thread about the relative driving skills of Lewis and Jenson, your personal dislike of Lewis adds nothing whatsoever

good point made

No, Lewis never notices nothing
e.g. as he was overtaking Vettel, Lewis reported to his Team, that Vettels car has an engine problem
"His engine's not firing on all banks."
At this time nearly everybody (including Vettel and RedBull) believed, it was an broken exaust, or something like this which caused the problems

Well everyone and their grannie expected Lewis to beat Jense and now its happening. I agree one one swallow does not make a summer, and it was only one race, but lets say THEORETICALLY that the what we expect will happen and Lewis will dominate the in-house battle of the two, much the same way he did it with Heikki. How do you see Jenson's future then?

-Will he jump the ship like he almost did with B-A-R for Williams, and if yes, which team would be to his resort this time (maybe Williams again?)

-Will he do a DC and assists Lewis' future WDC titles, picking up a few wins and podiums along the way?

-Will he retire?

I dont mean to provoke all the JB fans, Im just curious whats the most likely direction JB would take if he gets his ass handed to him by Lewis this season.

LOL Dude... you make my day!

lol nice post

much earlier as an F1 fan, I might take such "analysis" as insightful simply because its on a site like BBC...but I know better now.

The guy even quoted "90 degrees change in windspeed" as fact. Like he saw wind measuring data on the Mclaren or other cars reported feeling the same windspeed change. I doubt it.

The whole anticipative vs reactive driver thing sounds fancy at the beginning but is rubbish when you look closely. Its not like Hamilton is such a boss that he can just lord over the car and throw the car around in reckless abandon regardless of conditions and it will always give a decent laptime. F1 cars are very sensitive and all the top-notch drivers have to be one with the car and the conditions to get the best of it. They have to anticipate AND be reactive. Thats why telemetry shows faster drivers like Schumi always making so many minute corrections while attacking a corner.

This aint the first time wind has moved around in a race weekend or while driving a racecar. You do Button a disservice by saying that is all it took to completely throw him off his game in an all important qualy lap not just in one corner but the entire lap.

The article conveniently disregards the fact that the gap btw Lewis n Jenson was consistent in all qualy sessions....perhaps there was same phantom of the wind out to get Jenson on saturday.

Anyways, I think Jenson will do better as he settles in more and on those tracks without twisty Bahrain S2 corners where Lewis was constantly raping him.... but I dont buy the "a balanced car will make Jenson atleast as fast or faster than Lewis" argument.... at all.
I think its more likely that Lewis will take that balanced car, make it slightly imbalanced and twitchy, and go faster

Indeed, it seems if you put those two WDC titles on a balance scale Lewis' would weigh more. F1 drivers / experts all seem to expect Lewis to get the upper hand, and Lewis not even particulary popular among them, so its not so much to with hyping him, my guess is that it has more to do with him being a better driver than Jense (of course Jense is more than welcome to prove me wrong) Bookmakers seem to think Hamilton is likely to own Jense this season (and there is no personal preferences there, its sheer business, bookmaking)

Ok here goes Jensons gap to MS:-

lap
17 - 5.6s
18 - 5.5s
19 - 5s
20 - 4.6s
21 - 4.3s
22 - 4.5s
23 - 4.4s
24 - 4.3s
25 - 4.5s
26 - 4s
27 - 4s
28 - 4s
29 - 3.9s
30 - 4s
31 - 3.9s
32 - 3.3s
33 - 2.9s
34 - 2.2s
35 - 1.6s
36 - 1.4s
37 - 1s
38 - 1s

As i said before the turbulence created this year by the cars is really really bad