The AUTOSPORT Bulletin Board > Jenson and Lewis Scorecard 2010 [merged]

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 15:16

QUOTE (Jeag @ Mar 29 2010, 16:31)

Which didn't seem to dent his confidence since he then set a purple middle and final sector.

Which isn't really hard on the dry line with soft tyres. He wasn't that 'great' out of the box by wobbling through the gravel.

Imagine he would have spun or got stuck in it. He would have retired because of his 'own call', Hamilton would probably have won and Button would lose a lot of confidence in the rest of the season, plus his team, especially Whitmarsh, would not be particularly happy.

Grenada

Mar 29 2010, 15:17

QUOTE (gincarnated @ Mar 29 2010, 15:30)

I don't think anyone is unhappy that Jenson won. People are upset Lewis lost a possible 10 points and we were shafted of a result that people wouldn't soon forget because of a terrible pit call. Lewis wouldn't have won but people would be well aware of what an accomplishment his drive was. It's not the first time either.

McLaren were outsmarted by Renault and Ferrari and tbh I think it's likely to happen again.

10 points that could mean a lot in the championship.

Rinehart

Mar 29 2010, 15:20

QUOTE (Jeag @ Mar 29 2010, 16:08)

Intellectual dishonesty talk now i see. Why was Lewis slower than Jenson in qualifying, i have asked this question many a time now.

Yeh, todays bone obviously! I think the point being missed by some is that yes, quite obviously Lewis WAS faster than Jenson at some significant points of the race, no question about it, Lewis was really on it - and it was a joy to watch. However, he wasn't quicker than Jenson over all of it - he was slower by 29 seconds in fact. That is the point, Jenson proved you don't have to be the fastest every lap to bring home 25 points. That is motor racing.

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 15:21

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 15:37)

The lap times dont lie!

If you take the average lap-time for each driver and then multiply it by the total number of laps then you have a good basis for awarding points.
Is that what you meant?

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 15:24

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 16:12)

Slower? Yes easy answer - he used the same set of tyres on both his Q2 runs. Another bad call on his team.

Never actually seen any proof of that myself mind giving me some? And if so, why is that the teams fault again?

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 16:12)

In Q1 Lewis only had one run and was ahead of Buttons first run by .250 Button had to make a second run on fresh tyres to better his time on an ever improving track.

Nope never happened mate, they both did a 4 lap run on hards in Q1, stop making stuff up.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 15:26

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 16:37)

Can you explain to me, why Webber, Hamilton and Alonso was quicker than Button until they met traffic, and upon clearing traffic immediately went back to Vettel pace in clean air, while Button was being dropped? The lap times dont lie! There is no excuse of being stuck behind Schumacher this time. There can only be 2 logical answers. Either he never had the pace, or the Jenson fanclub favorite. He was saving his tyres.

25 1:32.603
26 1:32.431
27 1:32.911
28 1:32.713
29 1:31.003
30 1:31.329
31 1:30.871
32 1:30.664
33 1:30.520
34 1:30.201

How would you explain this then? Going from 32 highs straight to 31 lows and later 30's? Did he never had the pace, or did he save his tyres and start pushing in lap 29? You can name that 'the Jenson fanclub favorite', but what other explanation do you have for this then?

Lap times don't lie indeed, but you can still interpret them in a wrong way. For example, what you are doing.

dabrasco

Mar 29 2010, 15:26

QUOTE (Rinehart @ Mar 29 2010, 16:20)

Yeh, todays bone obviously! I think the point being missed by some is that yes, quite obviously Lewis WAS faster than Jenson at some significant points of the race, no question about it, Lewis was really on it - and it was a joy to watch. However, he wasn't quicker than Jenson over all of it - he was slower by 29 seconds in fact. That is the point, Jenson proved you don't have to be the fastest every lap to bring home 25 points. That is motor racing.

you are on a role

haha ...atleast I wont feel too bad for you guys in future when obnoxious Lewis fans jump out the woodwork talking 'pooper-scooper this and that'

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 15:29

QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 29 2010, 16:26)

you are on a role

haha ...atleast I wont feel too bad for you guys in future when obnoxious Lewis fans jump out the woodwork talking 'pooper-scooper this and that'

I thought that was you.

rodoal1515

Mar 29 2010, 15:29

[quote name='The Ragged Edge' date='Mar 29 2010, 16:02' post='4253603']
Did I not say this? I'll advise to read more slowly in future.

did you not write this?!?! "Have I not explained that Button had 4 laps worth of experience of the circuit, on slicks in those conditions? Plus the fact Buttons tyres were fully up to temperature?"

I was merely suggesting that if you re-watch the race you'll see for yourself that your claim is factually wrong, he was out for less than 4 laps on the slicks before everyone else dived into the pits.

threep

Mar 29 2010, 15:30

There's more than one way to win a race. Button took a gamble and it paid off handsomely. Irrespective of the strategy chosen, I don't believe Lewis could have beaten Jenson yesterday, not least because of his performance in qualifying.

In other races the situation will be different.

I think Jenson has killed the notion that he can't beat Lewis. But over the course of a season I'd still have to fancy Lewis beating Jenson home more times than the other way round because you would expect him to have the edge in qualifying and track position is golden when it comes to end results.

dabrasco

Mar 29 2010, 15:34

QUOTE (Jeag @ Mar 29 2010, 16:29)

I thought that was you.

nope matter of fact, I was defending Button after readin that... I respect Button much more than use such a term to define him... though its so derogatory its funny...

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 15:35

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 16:16)

Which isn't really hard on the dry line with soft tyres. He wasn't that 'great' out of the box by wobbling through the gravel.

Imagine he would have spun or got stuck in it. He would have retired because of his 'own call', Hamilton would probably have won and Button would lose a lot of confidence in the rest of the season, plus his team, especially Whitmarsh, would not be particularly happy.

To tell you the truth i personally didn't think it was that "great" either, was more responding to ragged edge. Having said that, he didn't spin out or get stuck in the gravel trap, he under-steered wide even going at a snails pace made it out and won the race.

The Ragged Edge

Mar 29 2010, 16:08

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 16:26)

25 1:32.603
26 1:32.431
27 1:32.911
28 1:32.713
29 1:31.003
30 1:31.329
31 1:30.871
32 1:30.664
33 1:30.520
34 1:30.201

How would you explain this then? Going from 32 highs straight to 31 lows and later 30's? Did he never had the pace, or did he save his tyres and start pushing in lap 29? You can name that 'the Jenson fanclub favorite', but what other explanation do you have for this then?

Lap times don't lie indeed, but you can still interpret them in a wrong way. For example, what you are doing.

WTF?

Kubica could do a 1:29.570 on lap 52 and was capable of lapping in a Renault in the low 1:30's and did several laps in the 29's. So what is your point? My point is, when Vettel was leading and pulling away, was it genuine tyre conservation, or a lack of speed from Button? Alas we'll never know. But we'll have many opportunities in the coming races to find out. What irks me is this view Button had it all under control, because he is ace supreme at tyre conservation, while earlier in the race, blew his tyres after only 3 laps of real racing.

Looking at Kubica's lap chart while having to drive defensively, makes me think differently.

QUOTE (rodoal1515 @ Mar 29 2010, 16:29)

I was merely suggesting that if you re-watch the race you'll see for yourself that your claim is factually wrong, he was out for less than 4 laps on the slicks before everyone else dived into the pits.

I speak a few languages poorly, and will only forgive you if English is not your first language. I thought I explained by the time Button passed Kubica, Button was on his 4th lap on the slicks. What do you not understand?

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 16:10

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 17:08)

My point is, when Vettel was leading and pulling away, was it genuine tyre conservation, or a lack of speed from Button? Alas we'll never know.

I've quoted what he himself said. Is he lying?

RodrigoL

Mar 29 2010, 16:13

QUOTE (trogggy @ Mar 29 2010, 17:10)

I've quoted what he himself said. Is he lying?

Haven't you learned anything? Jenson is making excuses. He's mid-tier at best and winning races just isn't enough. JB has to prove himself against OUR Lewis in a head-to-head on xbox live to even be considered worthy.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 16:15

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 18:08)

WTF?

Kubica could do a 1:29.570 on lap 52 and was capable of lapping in a Renault in the low 1:30's and did several laps in the 29's. So what is your point? My point is, when Vettel was leading and pulling away, was it genuine tyre conservation, or a lack of speed from Button? Alas we'll never know. But we'll have many opportunities in the coming races to find out. What irks me is this view Button had it all under control, because he is ace supreme at tyre conservation, while earlier in the race, blew his tyres after only 3 laps of real racing.

Looking at Kubica's lap chart while having to drive defensively, makes me think differently.

WTF indeed, you just went from laps 25/34 to lap 52 and use it as comparison?

I just showed you the relevant times. The laptimes he was doing behind Vettel, 32 highs, and a few laps after Vettel retired, he jumped to 31 lows and 30's. That alone answers your question already. Why can't you just realize that yourself?

The Ragged Edge

Mar 29 2010, 16:18

QUOTE (trogggy @ Mar 29 2010, 17:10)

I've quoted what he himself said. Is he lying?

In Bahrain it took Button several laps to eek into the lead Schumacher had built over him. He never had the speed to just zoom up. This time around in Melbourne, Vettel was going significantly faster, as was Hamilton, Alonso and Webber. Was Jenson's rivals all dumb @sses, and going too fast only to suffer in the end with bad tyres. While ace supreme tyre saver Button, was playing a blinder and the foresight to know Vettels, Hamiltons, Webber and Alonso's tyres/cars, would be slower than his at the end? Come on.

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 16:20

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 17:18)

In Bahrain it took Button several laps to eek into the lead Schumacher had built over him. He never had the speed to just zoom up. This time around in Melbourne, Vettel was going significantly faster, as was Hamilton, Alonso and Webber. Was Jenson's rivals all dumb @sses, and going too fast only to suffer in the end with bad tyres. While ace supreme tyre saver Button, was playing a blinder and the foresight to know Vettels, Hamiltons, Webber and Alonso's tyres/cars, would be slower than his at the end? Come on.

So I should believe you rather than him.
Okay.

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 16:21

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 17:15)

WTF indeed, you just went from laps 25/34 to lap 52 and use it as comparison?

I just showed you the relevant times. The laptimes he was doing behind Vettel, 32 highs, and a few laps after Vettel retired, he jumped to 31 lows and 30's. That alone answers your question already. Why can't you just realize that yourself?

Because hes never been asking a question, it was merely a hidden taunt to show Vettel was faster than Button and he had his mind made up on the reason for that ages ago.

FenderJaguar

Mar 29 2010, 16:29

It's nothing new that a race is full distance and that there are times when you can take care of tires and car in order to gain an advantage. I think it was Fangio who first said he wanted to win a race at the slowest possible speed...or something like that. People like Lauda and Prost used to be good at that too. I think Button understands that.
I was very surprised to see him outqualify Lewis. Interesting season to come.

dabrasco

Mar 29 2010, 16:31

Jenson in one of the post-race interviews said he tried pushing earlier in the race but then his rears started going away, so he went into conservation mode until around the time Lewis was hounding Kubica... I guess then he knew if Lewis got past, his worst nightmare was coming... so he started pushing again.

overall though, it was a controlled performance in front from Jenson, sure he didnt have to do too much after his gamble... ( Kubica was the perfect rear gunner ), but he did what he had to do nicely to win..props to him for that

but on the other hand, I see signs in this first two races that once the season kicks in and we have straightforward one stop races, Jenson is ironically going to be the one with tire wear issues, either that...or he risks getting called out for not being nearly as fast as his teammate. But Im sensing that in clear air for Jenson to match Lewis on race pace, his tires will grain way faster

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 16:34

QUOTE (dabrasco @ Mar 29 2010, 18:31)

but on the other hand, I see signs in this first two races that once the season kicks in and we have straightforward one stop races, Jenson is ironically going to be the one with tire wear issues, either that...or he risks getting called out for not being nearly as fast as his teammate. But Im sensing that in clear air for Jenson to match Lewis on race pace, his tires will grain way faster

I don't know about tyre graining, but I think he just won't be able to match him on race pace.

hansmann

Mar 29 2010, 16:35

For some people, Button will always be the lucky one, never the skilled one.

I think he played it cool and masterful; it was no free lunch for any of the drivers, under those circumstances, and Button made the most out of it, and won.
It always looks so easy when you watch the race leader for many laps cruising around, like he has no worry in the world, but I think it's a bit harder than that.

There has been a lot of great driving in this race, Kubica, Alonso, Hamilton, Schuhmacher (no, really ;) ), Webber made excellent progress under difficult circumstances, some of them in cars not meant to be that competitive .

FenderJaguar

Mar 29 2010, 16:38

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 16:18)

In Bahrain it took Button several laps to eek into the lead Schumacher had built over him. He never had the speed to just zoom up. This time around in Melbourne, Vettel was going significantly faster, as was Hamilton, Alonso and Webber. Was Jenson's rivals all dumb @sses, and going too fast only to suffer in the end with bad tyres. While ace supreme tyre saver Button, was playing a blinder and the foresight to know Vettels, Hamiltons, Webber and Alonso's tyres/cars, would be slower than his at the end? Come on.

1. Bahrain isn't Australia. Irrelevant.

2. "Significantly faster?" Did we watch the same race? I saw Button doing a gamble pitting early - too early - but a gamble - that paid off. He got a good trackposition - passed Kubica and found an excellent pace considering where he was on track. He didn't need to go faster - why should he?

3. In the race I watched the people you keep referring to as faster than Button where 10-20 seconds behind Button when the last laps of the race came. How is that possible if they were faster?

Maybe you should read your signature and apply it to your thinking?

"A nation can survive its fools, and even the ambitious. But it cannot survive treason from within."

The Ragged Edge

Mar 29 2010, 16:43

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 17:15)

WTF indeed, you just went from laps 25/34 to lap 52 and use it as comparison?

I just showed you the relevant times. The laptimes he was doing behind Vettel, 32 highs, and a few laps after Vettel retired, he jumped to 31 lows and 30's. That alone answers your question already. Why can't you just realize that yourself?

What could Vettel, Hamilton, Webber or Alonso done at that time, if they were still racing or in clear air? Kubica holding up faster cars will always make what I say, conjecture and supposition and still not reveal what pace Button really had. I look forward to Malaysia and round 3 of Button vs Hamilton. I've debated enough.

I'll go to my grave believing Button was a jammy b@:stard in this race.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 16:53

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 18:43)

What could Vettel, Hamilton, Webber or Alonso done at that time, if they were still racing or in clear air? Kubica holding up faster cars will always make what I say, conjecture and supposition and still not reveal what pace Button really had. I look forward to Malaysia and round 3 of Button vs Hamilton. I've debated enough.

I'll go to my grave believing Button was a jammy b@:stard in this race.

Your repeated question was: Lack of pace or conserving tyres? Now you've got your answer, which was easily visible from the FIA laptime charts, that you yourself kept linking to with the sentence 'facts don't lie'.

You didn't debate at all. You asked the same question a couple of times and after getting the same answer a couple of times, you just leave with the exact same beliefs you already had.

Yorkie

Mar 29 2010, 17:00

QUOTE (Kraken @ Mar 29 2010, 15:09)

"The Red Bull is ridiculously faster than anyone else's car" said Hamilton. So how does Vettel dropping Button prove anything other than the McLaren is not as good as the Red Bull.

I have very little doubt that Button would have been second if Vettels car had stayed on the track but you can only race the people still on it.

Jensen didn't need to overtake anyone so you can hardly criticise for him that.

Given the Red Bull was faster, kudos for Lewis being able to lap as fast as Webber

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 16:12)

Slower? Yes easy answer - he used the same set of tyres on both his Q2 runs. Another bad call on his team. In Q1 Lewis only had one run and was ahead of Buttons first run by .250 Button had to make a second run on fresh tyres to better his time on an ever improving track.

Why did Lewis use used tyres in Q2?

QUOTE (Rinehart @ Mar 29 2010, 16:20)

Yeh, todays bone obviously! I think the point being missed by some is that yes, quite obviously Lewis WAS faster than Jenson at some significant points of the race, no question about it, Lewis was really on it - and it was a joy to watch. However, he wasn't quicker than Jenson over all of it - he was slower by 29 seconds in fact. That is the point, Jenson proved you don't have to be the fastest every lap to bring home 25 points. That is motor racing.

Think McLaren had something to do with the gap to Lewis

Bonaventura

Mar 29 2010, 17:12

QUOTE (Rinehart @ Mar 29 2010, 16:20)

Yeh, todays bone obviously! I think the point being missed by some is that yes, quite obviously Lewis WAS faster than Jenson at some significant points of the race, no question about it, Lewis was really on it - and it was a joy to watch. However, he wasn't quicker than Jenson over all of it - he was slower by 29 seconds in fact. That is the point, Jenson proved you don't have to be the fastest every lap to bring home 25 points. That is motor racing.

29 seconds =
overtaking
slower 1 pitstop
+ one damned 2. pitstop

Grenada

Mar 29 2010, 17:19

QUOTE (Bonaventura @ Mar 29 2010, 18:12)

29 seconds =
overtaking
slower 1 pitstop
+ one damned 2. pitstop

+ being shunted by Webber.

inca_roads

Mar 29 2010, 17:21

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 17:15)

WTF indeed, you just went from laps 25/34 to lap 52 and use it as comparison?

I just showed you the relevant times. The laptimes he was doing behind Vettel, 32 highs, and a few laps after Vettel retired, he jumped to 31 lows and 30's. That alone answers your question already. Why can't you just realize that yourself?

If you look at other drivers lap times at the time Button improved, you'll find that the other drivers' times also improved similarly at that point. I think track/tyre conditions might have had something to do with it.

Also, when Button was still in second behind Vettel (trying to catch him, surely?) he was slower than Lewis, even though Hamilton was stuck behind slower cars at the time.

To sum up, now a bit of time has passed, I think we can find some common ground: Button fans are rightly defending his win as deserved and as a good drive - as I've said, his tyre call was excellent. And us Hamilton fans are rather annoyed that a great drive from him was not rewarded similarly, and instead was marred by numerous instances of bad luck - forced on to grass at start, held in pits, forced off by Webber which resulted in an extra few laps behind Massa, brought in unecessarily, and then hit by Webber.

BuzzingHornet

Mar 29 2010, 17:30

A lot of people don't want to believe that Lewis got outqualified and outraced by Jenson, and are poring over every word and every last technical detail to put some kind of argument together.

Button is a quality driver who is proving to be a match for Lewis over a race distance. Some people are surprised by this.

For every good quality Lewis has, Jenson has a different one, from a team point of view they are the perfect match.

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 17:37

QUOTE (Yorkie @ Mar 29 2010, 18:00)

Why did Lewis use used tyres in Q2?

He didn't, or atleast there is no proof either way except Ted kravits on BBC saying he DID get new tyres. The whole Lewis getting screwed by the team in qualifying thing was made up on the forums by mishearing certain commentary and it getting distorted over time and by each time it was posted, kind of like a Chinese whisper.

To be honest though after all the rubbish that has been said i still expect like many others for Lewis to come out on top and super strong at sepang, you'd be foolish not to.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 17:45

QUOTE (inca_roads @ Mar 29 2010, 19:21)

If you look at other drivers lap times at the time Button improved, you'll find that the other drivers' times also improved similarly at that point. I think track/tyre conditions might have had something to do with it.

Also, when Button was still in second behind Vettel (trying to catch him, surely?) he was slower than Lewis, even though Hamilton was stuck behind slower cars at the time.

27 1:32.911
28 1:32.713
29 1:31.003
30 1:31.329
31 1:30.871

Button dropped (his times) like 1.5/2 seconds in pace. Nobody else suddenly improved 1.7 sec from one lap to another. Clear enough indication.

He also mentioned it himself here:

QUOTE

"I felt I was starting to damage the rear tyres, so I settled into a pace that was consistent to not destroy the rears. The good thing was Robert was not closing and about 20 laps to go I started pushing just to pull the gap a little more just in case people had pitted and were two to three seconds a lap faster and it was just enough to get me to the end comfortably."

Although I'm quite sure with 20 he means 30 laps to go, as around lap 38 I don't see any change in pace.

ZooL

Mar 29 2010, 17:46

Guys, did anyone remember when Button said he wanted to pit, the team said no and he said I'm coming in now regardless?

The Ragged Edge

Mar 29 2010, 17:48

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 17:53)

Your repeated question was: Lack of pace or conserving tyres? Now you've got your answer, which was easily visible from the FIA laptime charts, that you yourself kept linking to with the sentence 'facts don't lie'.

You didn't debate at all. You asked the same question a couple of times and after getting the same answer a couple of times, you just leave with the exact same beliefs you already had.

You are quite wrong in your assessment of my beliefs, because you dont know what I believe. All you showed me was a marked drop in Buttons times, as an example of the speed he had, from the 32's to the 30's. But it is without context. IE; He did it when none of the other recognised drivers had clean air to show if they were capable of doing the same and Vettel was out. He couldn't match Vettel earlier on, but was only able to peg it a few laps before Vettel mechanical failure. Was that because of Buttons speed, or did Vettel not increase his due to being comfortable with a 5 second lead? In reality, we'll never know that answer. Kubica's lap times were almost comparable to Buttons at times and was able to do several laps in the 29's and many in the 30's. His fastest lap is only a couple of tenths behind Buttons. The question I ask can never really be answered satisfactorily. It is a classic what if question?

race

Mar 29 2010, 17:50

QUOTE (BuzzingHornet @ Mar 29 2010, 19:30)

Button is a quality driver who is proving to be a match for Lewis over a race distance. Some people are surprised by this.

I would still be very surprised if this was the case. He was no match in Bahrain and while Lewis had a troubled weekend, he still overtook Button on track in Australia. I'm expecting this to be a lucky one-off from Button. I could be wrong of course, but as a Kimi supporter I don't have any preference over either. I'm just calling like I see it.

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 17:52

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 18:48)

You are quite wrong in your assessment of my beliefs, because you dont know what I believe. All you showed me was a marked drop in Buttons times, as an example of the speed he had, from the 32's to the 30's. But it is without context. IE; He did it when none of the other recognised drivers had clean air to show if they were capable of doing the same and Vettel was out. He couldn't match Vettel earlier on, but was only able to peg it a few laps before Vettel mechanical failure. Was that because of Buttons speed, or did Vettel not increase his due to being comfortable with a 5 second lead? In reality, we'll never know that answer. Kubica's lap times were almost comparable to Buttons at times and was able to do several laps in the 29's and many in the 30's. His fastest lap is only a couple of tenths behind Buttons. The question I ask can never really be answered satisfactorily. It is a classic what if question?

You have the sudden change in lap times.
You have Button's own words.
That's about as good as it gets.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 17:53

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 19:48)

You are quite wrong in your assessment of my beliefs, because you dont know what I believe. All you showed me was a marked drop in Buttons times, as an example of the speed he had, from the 32's to the 30's. But it is without context. IE; He did it when none of the other recognised drivers had clean air to show if they were capable of doing the same and Vettel was out. He couldn't match Vettel earlier on, but was only able to peg it a few laps before Vettel mechanical failure. Was that because of Buttons speed, or did Vettel not increase his due to being comfortable with a 5 second lead? In reality, we'll never know that answer. Kubica's lap times were almost comparable to Buttons at times and was able to do several laps in the 29's and many in the 30's. His fastest lap is only a couple of tenths behind Buttons. The question I ask can never really be answered satisfactorily. It is a classic what if question?

No, it's not at all. It's clear he conserved his tyres and started pushing from a certain lap, and that was after Vettel already retired. You kept asking wether he conserved his tyres and the answer is yes, he did do that while Vettel was still running, and during the laps he was pushing he was doing quicker laptimes than Vettel was doing before the latter got his brake problem.

The Ragged Edge

Mar 29 2010, 17:59

QUOTE (trogggy @ Mar 29 2010, 18:52)

You have the sudden change in lap times.
You have Button's own words.
That's about as good as it gets.

Do you understand the definition of the word context? Yes, there is no doubt about his drop in lap times, but in relation to who? This is the question.

When the race was on with Vettel and a chasing Webber, Hamilton and Alonso. His pace was not comparable. The lap time example is given after Vettel crashed out due to his faulty wheel nut and the others were stuck behind a slower Kubica. Do you understand now?

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 18:53)

No, it's not at all. It's clear he conserved his tyres and started pushing from a certain lap, and that was after Vettel already retired. You kept asking wether he conserved his tyres and the answer is yes, he did do that while Vettel was still running, and during the laps he was pushing he was doing quicker laptimes than Vettel was doing before the latter got his brake problem.

Read my reply to trogggy.

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 18:10

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 18:59)

Do you understand the definition of the word context? Yes, there is no doubt about his drop in lap times, but in relation to who? This is the question.

When the race was on with Vettel and a chasing Webber, Hamilton and Alonso. His pace was not comparable. The lap time example is given after Vettel crashed out due to his faulty wheel nut and the others were stuck behind a slower Kubica. Do you understand now?

I understand your agenda.

Lap times don't just suddenly drop for no reason. There has to be a change in external conditions (track temp, rain etc), a change in the car (tyre condition, weight, damage) or a change in the driver.
That sudden drop of over 1.5 seconds has to be accounted for by one of the above. There's no evidence to indicate that the track suddenly improved or the car became faster. There's no evidence to show that other drivers improved similarly - and no, they can't all be stuck behind another car. There is the evidence from Jenson that he was looking after his tyres and later started to push. His statement fits the available information.

If I call you stupid, btw, or ask whether you understand a word, will that improve my post?

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 18:12

QUOTE (The Ragged Edge @ Mar 29 2010, 19:59)

Do you understand the definition of the word context? Yes, there is no doubt about his drop in lap times, but in relation to who? This is the question.

When the race was on with Vettel and a chasing Webber, Hamilton and Alonso. His pace was not comparable. The lap time example is given after Vettel crashed out due to his faulty wheel nut and the others were stuck behind a slower Kubica. Do you understand now?

You're wrong as not everybody was stuck behind Kubica. Only Hamilton was.

Webber had clean air infront but was not able to close the gap to Hamilton and Kubica, which made him slower than Button.

The Ferrari's were stuck behind Webber, but even after Webber pitted, they weren't able to set faster laptimes than Button.

The only drivers who were able to set much faster laptimes than Button were Rosberg, Webber and Hamilton after they pitted for fresh tyres.

Do you understand now?

Raincoat

Mar 29 2010, 18:13

QUOTE (BuzzingHornet @ Mar 29 2010, 17:30)

A lot of people don't want to believe that Lewis got outqualified and outraced by Jenson, and are poring over every word and every last technical detail to put some kind of argument together.

Button is a quality driver who is proving to be a match for Lewis over a race distance. Some people are surprised by this.

For every good quality Lewis has, Jenson has a different one, from a team point of view they are the perfect match.

Outraced? what does that mean? You mean getting lucky by changing tyres = outraced?

Lewis over took Button from 11th place within 3 laps
Lewis once he overtook Button pulled a 2. 5 second gap in 2 laps
Lewis set 3 fastest laps before pitting Button set none despite being in clean air
Lewis was averaging 7 tenths a lap faster before his second pit despite the fact he was not in clean air like Button

Thanks for your defintion of outrace but i'd stick to the general meaning.

trogggy

Mar 29 2010, 18:17

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 19:13)

Outraced? what does that mean? You mean getting lucky by changing tyres = outraced?

Lewis over took Button from 11th place within 3 laps
Lewis once he overtook Button pulled a 2. 5 second gap in 2 laps
Lewis set 3 fastest laps before pitting Button set none despite being in clean air
Lewis was averaging 7 tenths a lap faster before his second pit despite the fact he was not in clean air like Button

Thanks for your defintion of outrace but i'd stick to the general meaning.

I imagine Button's hoping to be outraced again next week then.

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 18:19

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 19:13)

Outraced? what does that mean? You mean getting lucky by changing tyres = outraced?

Lewis over took Button from 11th place within 3 laps
Lewis once he overtook Button pulled a 2. 5 second gap in 2 laps
Lewis set 3 fastest laps before pitting Button set none despite being in clean air
Lewis was averaging 7 tenths a lap faster before his second pit despite the fact he was not in clean air like Button

Thanks for your defintion of outrace but i'd stick to the general meaning.

You shouldn't take Buzzinghornets words so literally, outraced is definately the wrong word though maybe did the better job over the weekend? Will you let Jenson have that without it denting your lewisfan pride?

Just need to correct some stuff aswell as you seem to be getting alot of stuff wrong from the race weekend:

No it was not within 3 laps of the start of the race, it was lap 6.
Jenson pitted the lap he was overtaken by Lewis lap 6 and the gap was 4 tenths of a second.
Jenson set a fastest lap of the race the same lap Lewis made his controversial pit stop.

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 18:21

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 20:13)

Lewis once he overtook Button pulled a 2. 5 second gap in 2 laps

Actually, he pulled a 31.9 second gap in 2 laps.

Raincoat

Mar 29 2010, 18:24

QUOTE (Lights @ Mar 29 2010, 18:21)

Actually, he pulled a 31.9 second gap in 2 laps.

Ah thanks - Lewis pulled a 2.5 second gap in one lap. I know he was 2.5 behind before he pitted.

Jeag

Mar 29 2010, 18:29

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 19:24)

Ah thanks - Lewis pulled a 2.5 second gap in one lap. I know he was 2.5 behind before he pitted.

Slowing down for the pit lane?

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 18:34

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 20:24)

Ah thanks - Lewis pulled a 2.5 second gap in one lap. I know he was 2.5 behind before he pitted.

There's no way to verify that.

RodrigoL

Mar 29 2010, 18:40

QUOTE (Raincoat @ Mar 29 2010, 19:24)

Ah thanks - Lewis pulled a 2.5 second gap in one lap. I know he was 2.5 behind before he pitted.

Actually, Button was right on his gearbox before pitting.

To be fair, there was a Felipe train ahead, which could have slowed down LH. But that just makes Button's move all the more inspired. Struggle behind a group of cars OR gamble and win...

PS sorry about the poor image quality...

Lights

Mar 29 2010, 18:42

And what a surpise, it was bullshit.

Instead of 2.5 seconds, I would call it... 0.3 - 0.5 seconds.

Although now you're probably gonna tell me Lewis could have potentially pulled of a 2.5 seconds gap in less than 1 lap if it wasn't for him being stuck behind other cars.