Yeah I think it does. But all of the in team battle bets are shocking value.

I'm more confident of Alonso beating Massa than I am of Hamilton beating Button though, hence prefering that bet to the Hamilton one.

for me its the other way round....Massa being so impressive in his 3 years with Kimi (for whatever the reasons might be), makes me look at him as a true dark horse that could give Alonso trouble over the season (except Ferrari tells him to fall back)


while Buttons qualy pace might hamper his ability to really showcase his racepace and push Lewis all the way...i.e. if he is getting stuck behind slower cars

I think he's trying to make you laugh, not upset anyone.

Enough of the Lewis fans are blinkered to Buttons abilities. I'm a Lewis fan second and a Jenson fan first and always have been, but I still say Jenson is a poor qualyfier, it dosen't matter why he's poor at q weather it's tyre temps, misfortune, poor setup or driver ability he was still out qualified by RB on to many occasions including after Brawn got the tyre temp issue sorted plus bare in mind that Jensen more often than not had lower fuel loads in q3. Jenson made up for this on race day and outpaced RB and won the wdc as a result but unless you think RB is as quick as LH (in which case you would have to be really deluded) that extra race pace is not enough to catch, pass and beat Hammy, he's got to out q LH, and going on past performance that isn't going to happen. Only Jensens ability to score solid points finishes at every race and capitalise on LH's un-forced errors that he makes from time to time will JB beat him over a season.

Of course I could be talking bollocks and I'm sure many of you will say I am but bare in mind I'm not against JB in any way he's my number one driver but I'm not blinkered to Hammy's abilities unlike some.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/80928
Jenson at 7:55

"...racing against side...alongside Lewis..."

Freudian slip

Lewis Hamilton: 52 GPs - 17 pole positions = every 3rd quali pole position. Enough said!

When is the first time they will be together on track? Is there any training session with both of them behind the wheel?

Fred's 2/5? I know where I'm putting a little chunk of cash!

Really? 2009? Arguably more than even 2007 and 2008, it was 2009 that cemented Lewis' reputation and showcased his adaptability demonstrating what he can do in a poor car.

Nothing, all that we saw of him in poor car was crashing, spinning, qualifyng at the back and being moving chicane

Did you miss the finishing 5th overall and winning races part?

He didn't win races with bad car, he won them with best car, and even spilled some nice points with 2nd-3rd best car (Monaco and Monza)

Jenson's track record is to be wholly blamed for this. First, he has never demonstrated to possess the raw pace of a Lewis or Fernando. Second, he made an easy cruise to WDC an extended adventure thanks to his mental weakness. So you'll have to forgive not only Lewis fans but many other F1 fans when they believe Lewis will destroy Jenson. 2010 is Jenson's year to prove everyone wrong on both points, we'll see how it goes.

I'm sorry but if anything their respective title challenges has showed us that Lewis is probably the mentally weaker of the two

Just my opinion of course

I'm so sick of this nonsense. There's no such thing as "raw pace". It's a myth. Where was Kimi's raw pace against Massa (remember, Kimi was thought of as having the most "raw pace" in F1 when he left McLaren). Where was Fernando's against Lewis? Seriously, there's absolutely no way we can determine "raw pace". In what car? At what track? On what tyres? In what weather? There's just no such thing. The top 7 or 8 drivers are all amazing but have different strengths. What will determine the winner between Button and Hamilton this year isn't "raw pace" at all - it will be circumstances. If the car suits Button well and he gets some early momentum he's going to be almost impossible to beat. The same is true for Lewis. If you want to make an argument about Lewis being more adaptable to the tyres or something, then fine, but keep this "raw pace" crap where it belongs... in the toilet.

You're getting unnecessarily het up - what he posts is valid (his opinion) and not for you to shoot down as crap - it's been widely acknowledged that some drivers (Kimi for example) have more raw pace than others - how do we measure that against other drivers? Too many variables but judging him against his teamates is always a good indicator.

We've watched over the years incredible battles between 2 camps - drivers with raw pace/undeniable natural talent VS more technical drivers, completely different styles but effective nonetheless.

Lewis vs Massa in '08 - it'd be hard to argue Massa has shown the same amount of natural driving talent Lewis has since he first appeared on the scene but that's not to say Massa hasn't been taking tips from Herr Schuey and turned into quite a formidable opponent over the years.

Vettel vs Webber - again Webber is known as a fantastic driver but got shown the way by someone with more "raw pace" - speed out of the box - accessible immediately especially in qualy, where Mark was left trailing.

Again it's almost impossible to measure and quantify this "raw pace" but to deny it's existence is silly imo.

The OP you were replying to was just saying in his view Lewis has more raw pace than Jenson and we will see - you could argue Jenson is the more naturally talented (and that it's the other way round as far as you're concerned) and it's all those years in a shit ride that's brought about this perception; we won't know till Bahrain.

Chill Winston

http://www.autosport.com/news/grapevine.php/id/80936

Fantastic behind-the-scenes piece here; I especially loved this -

The 2009 world champion recently took delivery of a white Mercedes C63 road car, but speaking on the interview stage at AUTOSPORT International in Birmingham, described how the 500bhp machine became a bit of a handful in the icy conditions.

"I actually arrived at Woking about 10 days ago in the snow, and I was struggling a little bit with the car in the snow," Button related.

"To be fair, I should be ok at driving whatever, but I drove into the factory sideways and thought I was going to wipe out the entrance sign. I just gathered it up and left it there, because I couldn't drive it any further."

- err Jenson, Lewis is the only one allowed to drive sideways at Mclaren, you'll learn this soon

Button got away with it, but later discovered that there were benefits to being a McLaren F1 driver that he had not taken into account.

"They came to me and said that the tyres were on the limit of being illegal. They were still legal, but they were on the limit. So they took it away and they put new tyres on it for me. It was like going to the Kwik-Fit. How good's that? Fantastic. And they did a great job with it."

- that's Mclaren, classy all the way, slightly different from your Honda days eh Jenson

You're not sitting there with a bag of fertiliser and a half comatosed woman named Gloria by any chance are you Bishy ?

Bag of Readings' finest actually and other half (in bed next to me) nursing a hang-over still a bit drunk from last night methinks...

FAIL, of course some drivers have more raw pace than others... how else would you explain some drivers been consistently faster than their teammates. What you can argue about is that there is no real quantifiable means to say that Hamilton has more raw pace than Jenson.... which is true.

The poster you quoted believes Lewis has more raw pace but concedes that is his opinion and we will find out, you believe there is nothing between them pace wise and will only be determined by circumstances.... fair enough. The truth will start to show come Bahrain...

But to deny some drivers cant be simply faster than others doesnt make much sense

How do you know that? Button had problems in qualy in 2nd part of 2009 season, but always had excellent pace. Do you know how new rules will affect driving next year? Tyres management and smooth style might be helpful. Just wait fot the start of the season.

what are you arguing about?.... read the quoted statement again

All this back and forth sniping is going to be funny to read if it comes down to Jenson and Lewis for the title

Sadly I suspect if Jenson does beat Hamilton it will be said that Hamilton proved to be a bit of a dud after all rather than Button being faster and better than people thought....

Wouldn't surprise me

With hindsight we can say his raw pace diluted quite a bit the moment he signed that obscene contract with Ferrari. I'd say both Lewis and Jenson still have the fire burning in them, neither is in the cruise-and-collect-paycheck aka 'Villeneuve' mode.


What about Fernando and Lewis? They were the most competetive driver pairing in years! Both were quick, both have great pace. Quite different from the situation at Brawn in 2009 where Jenson was paired next to a decomposing Rubens.


tkulla this is very thoughtful of you, laying the foundation for future excuses before the season has started. 'Jenson Button in 2010: A Victim of Circumstances.'


Adapting to the car and setting it up is part of the job, the car will not be built to please one driver over the other rather for outright pace. We'll see who does the better job.

It is not that I consider it 'impossible' for Jenson to be quicker than Lewis, just very unlikely. No point in carrying forward with this discussion since this is just our feelings, and the only thing that matters is results. Cannot wait for the racing to begin.

I consider Lewis to be amongst the quickest driver on the grid (not necessarily the smartest). If Jenson beats Lewis in the WDC points table, I for one will have no problem in accepting that Jenson too is one the quickest guys and a 'Tier 1' driver. Good for Jenson. As another British driver he is perhaps the only one who can expect to genuinely fight Lewis at Mclaren without Ron getting all worked up about someone messing with his pet project.

It will not be much different to Hamilton and Heikki.

Button: "Hey, what are doing to my new car?"
McLaren Technician: "Changing the tyres, sir."
Button: "But they don't need changing yet."
McLaren Technician: "Sorry sir, but the drivers aren't allowed to make that call. Not since China. Mr Dennis said they need changing, so I have to change them."
Button: "Why? They're OK aren't they? Oh, and call me Jenson."
McLaren Technician: "The tread's still legal, sir, I mean Jenson, but it's close, so Mr Dennis said to change them now."
Button: "Wow, that's what I call 'star treatment'. Thanks!"
McLaren Technician: "Well, what Mr Dennis actually said was, "Get those f***ing 'Continentals' off now, I never want to see anything but 'Bridgestone'." "

I am a bit surprised that Mclaren stock road tires at their factory and just happen to had a set in the relatively rare size that Mercedes C63 AMG uses.

For my money lewis and jenson are both top drivers, however in my opinion lewis is on a different level to jenson, which is by know means am i saying that jenson is anything other than a top driver, just that i feel lewis is in the extraordinary level along with the likes of alonso, shumi, senna, prost, stewart etc. no other driver has had the amount of pressure on him all through his career that lewis has had to deal with and time and time again he has proven he is extraordinary. As good as jenson is the few times in his career he has had pressure on him it got to him, at the start when people expected so much from him he went a little bit off the rails and then this year during the second half he wilted a bit, so i reckon based on that lewis will beat jenson in 2010 but i don't think he is going to destroy him as some people on hear reckon.

That's JB's 'company car' (and probably Hamilton's too), so that would explain it.

Learn to relax a bit guys. Who comes out on top in the Button vs Hamilton battle, will soon be revealed. The Autosport pundits will analyse the times to death and come up with their own conclusions. I believe the picture will be clear by the first European race, who is top dog.

I agree with some of what you said, but you could argue no other driver has had it easier than Lewis, supported by McLaren through his career and never out of a top car, that's not to say he was wrong to turn down the opportunity of the McLaren seat, who wouldn't

On the pressure angle, people say Jenson ''wilted'', well if that's true i haven't seen it because he got the job done, if anything it was Lewis who wilted in 07 and nearly in 08, no criticism there on my part, he's still a young man and is still maturing

I just hope the battle between the two is fair - which i think it will be, and we're treated to an awesome spectacle with 6 maybe 7 drivers going hammer and tongs for the title

Roll on March

In fairness to Hamilton, he never had the sort of car advanatge that Button enjoyed last year.

As for having it 'easy', that is a bit of a myth. His set goal by McLaren were to win the championships he was entered into, then they would let him progress. He could have easily fallen away in teh step up from karting to cars like so many promising young karters do. If it weren't for Montoya walking he would probably have started his career in another team too.

I don't like the comparrisons being made and especially the whole ideology some people have that Lewis is going to destroy Jenson.
I think Jenson is a very competant driver and has a brilliant driving style, smooth and very very controlled, plus I also think the fact Jenson has won a title won't put pressure on him, he seems a cool customer and I reckon he will just go about his job without the worry of whats being said in the media about the whole him vs Lewis thing.
Lewis no doubt has talent in abundance and in some quarters seems the favourite to win this battle, but I think this battle is going to be alot closer than some will imagine, it'll be difficult to write Jenson off.

Wow, way more bitching on this thread than any Alonso/Massa thread....

Oh yeh this is going to be a fantastic year for Mclaren

Couldn't agree more. There seems to be a lot of over-confidence from some quarters. Button will not be dismissed so easily where it matters- on the race track.

The tone of this topic will have no bearing on McLaren's year.

Lewis had a lot more pressure and a heavier weight on his shoulders the last years than Jenson ever (expect the 2 half of the last season) had.
Nobody expected something from Button or BawnGP at the beginning of last season (and the last years at Honda )
At McLaren the whole world is watching , is expecting to fight their drivers for the championshiph
every word they say every move they make is reported, discussed, criticised...
I think threre are easier jobs out there than beeing a F1 driver at McLaren or Ferrari.

Those who give Button a chance in beating Hamilton, hang their prediction on Buttons smoothness and his tyre conservation. The irony is the majority of the teams are asking for 2 mandatory pit stops. If this goes through, this will nullify Buttons 1 advantage.

You disapprove of bitching?

Also way more Alonso fans on this thread...

I doubt that was easy because if lewis hadn't have got the results on track mclaren would of pulled out thier support and i doubt he would have been able to get enough money together to keep on racing at a competitive level, thats not easy.

Perhaps some of the more technical among you can answer this.

We all know Lewis likes a car with a little oversteer and therefore relies on front end grip so therefore would it also be true to say that with the narrower front tyres this season would that loss of front end grip me more of a disadvantage to Lewis and his driving style and play more into the hands of a driver like Jenson who perfers a more neutral car anyway?
I know less grip at the front end will disadvantage all drivers but surely it would cause more problems for a driver who relies on it more such as Lewis.

I'm not saying it was easy, but it was a lot easier for him to get to F1 because of his McLaren links than it was other drivers

Listen i'm not having a pop at Lewis, for him as a young boy to go to Ron and say what he said took a lot of balls and great self belief, and fair play to him

What was the reason for making the fronts narrower anyway, seems a strange thing to alter.

The loss of front end grip due to tyre size from 2009 to 2010, could be compensated by the increased downforce in 2010. According to the magazine/Internet technical pundits, they believe downforce levels in 2010 will be more than they had in 2008. This is despite the OWG doing their best to reduce downforce levels for 2009. In theory it should hurt Hamilton more, but one of Hamilton's strengths is his adaptability.