I think all these things can be explained by being forced to find the limit by his father making him brake as late as later as possible when he was a small boy. Try doing for yourself. The vehicle has a stopping distance. That does not change. What changes is your abilty to get round the corner at a slightly higher speed, ie to drive on the limit. Car control improves. A bit of sliding as on a green track or in the wet does not bother you so much as before since you are used to correcting in corners all the time anyway.

Also consider that this is the opposite of how most drivers (even those that go on to become F1 drivers) are taught.

I noticed that LH has a somewhat different driving style than I have ever seen before..... please someone tell me if they know another driver in any racing category who drives in the same style. I cant describe it properly but I dont just mean that he is very tail happy, I am thinking of the way he squares off corners and and balances the braking at the same time. I think this must have come from those early late braking lessons. I know MS does a similar thing (and it was supposed to be new when he did it) but LH seems to be more dramatic and seeming on the edge of being out of control.

We know it works because "on paper" what he is doing in corners should be slower but he delivers competitive lap times.... and very consistently but more importantly his racecraft is enhanced since it seems to take more control to just to get round the corner his way, keep up the speed in an overtaking manouver and being able to outbrake is part of the package.

I also think that this is why he is not blistering over a lap. The technique used by the smother guys like JB and HK tends to be faster over a lap but the one lap guys seem not to be as quick over a race distance. I think concentration has something to do with. If you are not happy at the limit you dont push as consistently and go slower on average. Its hard to explain the concept.

This is why I have said that I think he may be the best ever - its not because of some pop star factor, or that he his a lot of fun to watch or any of other superficial factor. Watching what he does, and doing my best to try figure out what he is doing (and I am not convinced I fully understand), I think he is doing something new and a bit different from what we have seen before. F1 is dependent on the car. I am not all that bothered about results and stats and so on. If LH never won another title I would not lose sleep. I just love watching some of these guys drive. RK is another favourite of mine as are VL and FA and old MS. Any of these guy in a competitive car will bring home the bacon.... As this is the LH v JB thread, JB does nothing for me. He's too conventional... not enough innovation to make me happy.

Hamilton is by no means the best ever, no way.

I know what you mean about his style, his onboards are quite distinctive. And I remember being realy surprised once when after watching one on the edge of my sofa it was in fact only the same time as his teammate.

I suppose I just don't think the training can be such a big part of it, I think it was honing an extraordinary physical talent. I reckon with any other driver Anthony's braking sessions would either have ended at a lower limit or the young driver would have been set down with failure.

In 2008 after Lewis' 3-stopper in Turkey the team rebalanced the car and made Lewis and Kovy re-learn it in the simulator, and we also heard lots about Kovy trying to wean himself off the classic arc cornering style to emulate Lewis, but he couldn't do it. And all the drivers would love to brake later, they must practice, and in fact Kubi was matching Lewis on that in Oz.

For me the only pointer to Hammy being at all ordinary on 'pure' pace are the Q3's, and I think there has to be a specific explanation for 'only' having a tenth or two over his teammates in them. Either the current cars have a kind of glass ceiling to the laptime that all the top drivers can get close to on one lap, or he's overdriving.

I know what you mean about his style, his onboards are quite distinctive. And I remember being realy surprised once when after watching one on the edge of my sofa it was in fact only the same time as his teammate.

I dont want to ruin your party, but facts and figures do show Lewis is a more then talented young driver and surely can already be counted amongst the best drivers.

,
Jenson's problem is that Lewis doesn't have any weaknesses at all.

Well one weakness is his inablility to bring the current car home in first place so far....


Up until this season i would probably have agreed with you but so far his overall performance in 2010 has been patchy - yes we have seen the usual fast laps and overtakes but for me something is lacking. His personality has also been weirdly all over the place this year after 3 years of being the ultra cool, smooth professional. We now have the ranting Lewis during the race followed by the Stepford Wives cheesy grin post race interview - all that makes me uneasy but we shall see.

I can't believe there are actually people that believe Jenson is a better driver than Hamilton. We are talking about the man who beat 2 time champ Alonso in the same car in his rookie season.

So going by that people are saying Button is also better than Alonso. lol

Up until this season i would probably have agreed with you but so far his overall performance in 2010 has been patchy - yes we have seen the usual fast laps and overtakes but for me something is lacking. His personality has also been weirdly all over the place this year after 3 years of being the ultra cool, smooth professional. We now have the ranting Lewis during the race followed by the Stepford Wives cheesy grin post race interview - all that makes me uneasy but we shall see.

But someone must've claimed he was the best, else hotstickyslick would not have made that commment.

Well one weakness is his inablility to bring the current car home in first place so far....


Up until this season i would probably have agreed with you but so far his overall performance in 2010 has been patchy - yes we have seen the usual fast laps and overtakes but for me something is lacking. His personality has also been weirdly all over the place this year after 3 years of being the ultra cool, smooth professional. We now have the ranting Lewis during the race followed by the Stepford Wives cheesy grin post race interview - all that makes me uneasy but we shall see.

The difference between Lewis and Buttons driving for me is:
(very simply summarized):
If Lewis is "on it" and he let it fly
It's woohoo!

If Jenson drives in his typical style
It's: well, very nice ...

Well one weakness is his inablility to bring the current car home in first place so far....

Up until this season i would probably have agreed with you but so far his overall performance in 2010 has been patchy - yes we have seen the usual fast laps and overtakes but for me something is lacking. His personality has also been weirdly all over the place this year after 3 years of being the ultra cool, smooth professional. We now have the ranting Lewis during the race followed by the Stepford Wives cheesy grin post race interview - all that makes me uneasy but we shall see.

If you're describing Hamilton's form as patchy despite the fact he has finished in the top six in every grand prix except Barca where his rim failed while in second place; I would like to hear you describe Jenson's form and mood:
Bahrain (7th)
Oz (1st)
Malaysia (8th)
China (1st)
Spain (5th)
Monaco (DNF)

Ephemeral springs to mind. Or apparently, it takes precipitation for the reigning championship to show his true ability.

It was a duffus attempt by Webber if the roles had been reversed there would have been a different outcome


No Lewis has never actually been a great qualifier although as a rule he's always come out on top against his teammates in qualifying, in GP2 his qualifying wasnt that great but he always made up for it in race pace, Piquet as a rule tended to dominate qualifying although of course he was driving for a different team. Here is Lewis's qualifying match up against his teammates and the margin by which Lewis was quicker averaged out :-

2007 Alonso 0.07s
2008 Heikki 0.06s
2009 Heikki 0.12s
2010 Jenson 0.08s

Thats a false assumption, its still an average. What you are saying is; the longer in F1 (as in more races) the more accidents in average they are involved in.

Given that this is the Jenson vs Lewis thread would it be rude to point out that in fact JB has on average been 0.12s quicker so far?

Which one was it?

The only race I can think of is Nurburgring 2007 and that was an odd race considering Lewis' starting position.

I don't remember Hamilton beating Alonso in 2007. I thought they were pretty evenly matched. Both won 4 times, and they ended the season with equal points.

Button is a good solid driver, but he lacks the couple tenths and the aggression that make Lewis Hamilton the better driver.

I expect on dry tracks Lewis will normally out qualify Jenson.

That said, Lewis needs a solid team mate like Jenson to keep him honest and on his toes. So I for one am really glad Jenson is at Mclaren and as an Englishman I'm proud of his two race wins this season.

Yes, I agree that is the only disagreement I have with jjcale's assessment. I think Hamilton has an exceptional natural talent (see his remote controlled car racing at the age of 5 as shown on Blue Peter, beating people older than himself and then how his natural talent showed itself as soon as he went into karts), and he and his father honed it by hard graft.

Well one weakness is his inablility to bring the current car home in first place so far....


Up until this season i would probably have agreed with you but so far his overall performance in 2010 has been patchy - yes we have seen the usual fast laps and overtakes but for me something is lacking. His personality has also been weirdly all over the place this year after 3 years of being the ultra cool, smooth professional. We now have the ranting Lewis during the race followed by the Stepford Wives cheesy grin post race interview - all that makes me uneasy but we shall see.

1. Very representative statistics. Especially those from 2007-2009. If you forgot: In those seasons the drivers drove with different feul loads in q3!
2. Where do you have your statistics from? Can you prove them?

Its basically a hobby of mine i started in the 80s, i have a spreadsheet that i update after every qualifying, 2007-2009 are all fuel corrected

Since the 80's, huh.... in that case, what is your view about my latest pet idea that LH is actually doing some thing new and different in terms of his cornering technique?

I really never understood what Senna was doing ... there were stories about a wierd braking technique - but back then there were so many other things that drivers had to do that it was not just about being good at one thing - eg there were still gears to be changed. MS's style was said to be innovative when he came on the scene and I remember lots of discussion and videos on it. LH looks to proably the closest we have had to MS in all these years but it seems so much more extreme in terms of squaring off the corners by letting the back step out in slow corners as well as carrying a lot of speed into the corner as MS does(?)/did.... as to be considered to be doing something new.

Its basically a hobby of mine i started in the 80s, i have a spreadsheet that i update after every qualifying, 2007-2009 are all fuel corrected

You are a funny guy
And how did you do the fuel correction? It's getting weird

I'm not sure if you just made a fool of yourself there?

Well if you want to count shambolic wet qualifying thats up to you

come on, let us forget this childish stuff, and please explain me your statistics.
Or why dont you make some examples how you made them! (i.e. your exact formula for fuel correction!)

If you don't want to then fine. Just say so.
I didn't realise wet tracks don't count.

They actually publish them on F1 sites like the BBC

and what is their formula?

I find it interesting that Lewis is saying McLaren can catch Red Bull, while Button said he is hoping for Red Bull to make mistakes. Not sure what to read into this.

Lewis fights for his chances
Button waits for his chances

Lewis believes in his own and his teams strenghts and believes they can make it under their own steam,
while Button is a little less confident, and doesn't believe it.

I'm perplexed. Your inside knowledge is so valuable.

and the effect of 1Kg on the laptime

Not if you want good data, variable track conditions dont make for good data, ive no bias when i do this, taking Webber and Vettel as an example in Q1 Vettel was 4.254s quicker, Q2 Vettel was 1.382s quicker, Q3 Webber was 1.462s quicker, Vettel set the quickest of the laps between the two of them but Webber took pole in Q3

Oh ffs, guys, there's no need to get your panties in a knot just because you don't like the result of Yorkie's qualifying differentials work. It's common to leave out freakish wheather qualifying session when you do these averages, 'cause you're looking for their speed, and it is always a chance there's an element of luck involved in such sessions.

....and really, Hamilton being faster on average, is more representative. I'm just glad Button is as close as he is, and positively surprised by that. Pre season I said I thought it would be around two tenths or two tenths plus.

which cant be exactly calculated! This value is always approximated!
And especially the effect of the fuel load on the drivers driving style cant be calculated! Some drivers i.e. nick heidfeld was very fast with a heavier car on one lap, and on the other hand was "slow" with a lighter car (in comparison to Kubica). So the fuel load has also an effect on the driving style and can effect the quickness of a dirver (on one lap).
so the qualifyings prior this season cant be used as an exact measurement, who was/is the better qualifyer.

This season we can see it (although the parc ferme rule do some kind slightly distort the competition!)

If you want to compare just the dry times then I don't see a problem with that. Just add 'dry' to your description.
Although in the case of LH and JB there's no problem with the 'wet' data because they set their times in the same conditions. As soon as that's not true you can't compare, I agree.
Edit: I'm not suggesting you're biased in choice of figures btw.

Oh ffs, guy, no need for you to get your panties in a knot just because someone points out Yorkie's data isn't quite what he said it was. Nobody's upset about it - I'm not and I'm sure Yorkie's not.

Button is a good solid driver, but he lacks the couple tenths and the aggression that make Lewis Hamilton the better driver.

I dont want to ruin your party, but facts and figures do show Lewis is a more then talented young driver and surely can already be counted amongst the best drivers.

Agree with the first part, that Hamilton has more raw pace. But as I keep saying, its not a 1 lap world championship.

Totally disagree that Jensons lack of aggression makes Hamilton definately the better driver. It's precisely this lack of agression that I have been talking about, in various forms, for 50 pages, and as far as I am concerned it remains to be seen if the aggression or the calculation will win out in the end. Senna and Prost demonstrated that BOTH virtues have their advantages. That's how I see it at the moment.

I think youre tying yourself in a knot here its a qualfying comparison and i dont understand what your trying to say unless you mean Heidfield can post a faster laptime in a heavier car then he can if the car was lighter which sort of goes against the laws of physics

I like users like you, who ask if they dont understand something, and not make their mind on somethinf they didnt understand

Heidfeld was equally fast as Kubica, when they drove on a higher fuel level (in q3, i.e 1 stop strategy, or a longer first stint).
When they went for a more aggresive first stint, Kubica was always miles ahead of Heidfeld. Thats what I mean, that a driving style can influence under what fuel loads a driver is faster than an other one. Because under different fuel loads, different drivings styles have an advantage!

Hmh, so Monaco '08 ('08 wasn't it) was an anomaly? Kubica had a lot more fuel than Heidfeld and still matched him in qualifying. But really, I probably agree with you, it's just that Kubica is a better Monaco-driver and that's what we saw.

Since the 80's, huh.... in that case, what is your view about my latest pet idea that LH is actually doing some thing new and different in terms of his cornering technique?

I really never understood what Senna was doing ... there were stories about a wierd braking technique - but back then there were so many other things that drivers had to do that it was not just about being good at one thing - eg there were still gears to be changed. MS's style was said to be innovative when he came on the scene and I remember lots of discussion and videos on it. LH looks to proably the closest we have had to MS in all these years but it seems so much more extreme in terms of squaring off the corners by letting the back step out in slow corners as well as carrying a lot of speed into the corner as MS does(?)/did.... as to be considered to be doing something new.

Lucky. This discussion is officially this shape: o

Here ya go:

onboard with Ayrton

It was Senna's Throttle technique that made him unique. He carried a *lot* of corner speed and adjusted the cars attitude with the throttle & steering. It's demonstrated quite nicely in this video. Don't be distracted by the heel & toe downshifts, what you're looking for is his stabbing at the throttle once he's off the brakes and the car is turning. Essentially a kind of personal traction control, he used it to find max grip under acceleration & to adjust the cars attitude through the corner. I was trackside at a couple grand prixs in those days and Senna sounded like no-one else. Kind of like a rapid fire weapon sound actually. Very unique to Ayrton, I don't think anybody else has really made that work as successfully.

Schumi, by contrast used a very smooth application of the throttle as shown here:

a comparison of Michael's data traces with Johny Herbert's

Quite different approaches btwn the two of them, but the same sort of result: blistering speed. Just goes to show, that there's more than one way to ski the proverbial cat. One thing that they both share is a ton of steering correction, this being a function of just how far on the limit the car is dancing.